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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 5:10:24 AM   
rexrgisformidoni


Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
Status: offline 		Um...I am not a weak or frail person by any means. However, the city I live in has one of the highest crime rates in the US. There are places that if I have fuel up, I am glad to have my gun with me. One on One I might win a fight, but against 4 or 5 gangbangers hopped on god knows what or just looking to rob or beat the hell out of someone, my Glock is a huge equalizer. So yeah, there are places I don't feel safe. I don't have faith that a cop is just around the corner or that the gas station attendant will call the police instead of looking the other way. I do have faith in 15 rounds of 40 caliber hardball. So you can all believe in what ya'll want and I'll do what I want with mine ok? My guns are registered, rifles are locked in cases, and my pistol is either with me or in a locked case. There are wackjobs everywhere. Here in the US, in the UK, Germany, Austrailia, anywhere. and in the last 3 countries, even though they have gun control laws (which I will readily admit know nothing about) a nut job could get a gun and shoot up a gas station or post office or whatever. If you want to do something, or the voices tell you to do something or whatever, you'll find a means to do it.

I'm off to drink some coffee and get ready for work. Pleasant day all.


_____________________________

when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like nails

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

Genghis Khan

(in reply to susie)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 5:10:25 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Kennesaw... *snort*

I'd be willing to bet that the KKK dude (wildman, he calls himself) owns more guns than the entire rest of Kennesaw (proper AND incorporated, combined)

Yeah, really.  <doublesnort>  You know, I don't think I know anyone who owns guns. And I know one or two people here. I mean, odds are I DO, but it doesn't seem to be all that common. Of course, where I live (as you well know) isn't exactly double-wide alley.   Peace, sistah.


Not sure what double-wides have to do with it. We don't have em here either, but I know a lot of people who have guns.

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(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 5:21:46 AM   
rexrgisformidoni


Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: XaviersXian

greetings to all,

The Australian gun control laws came about after a particularly nasty massacre that killed 35 innocent people (including two children under 10...one of which, who, after running away and trying to hide behind a tree, was hunted like a game animal and killed where she had tried to hide).

I have an acquaintance that was shot in the buttock by the man wielding the gun...he survived, but saw many people killed.  I am very careful never to mention the day to him (to the point of not even asking how he's doing with his health now) because I am fearful that it may cause him some form of psychological harm.

My father was a sporting shooter (he had rifles and pistols that he shot with at the local range).  He turned them all in to the government.  People without registered firearms are not even able to keep ammunition, or gun cases.

In my opinion, the gun laws are the best thing to ever happen to this country.

well wishes,


Sheesh! God forbid you have a crazy person go beserk with a car or truck!
I can see it on Yahoo News; "Australia bans cars and trucks, junk yards filling up."
"Law abiding citizens turn in their keys."
"Criminals stealing and hiding cars and trucks."
So, how do things work in Aus?
The govt. "dictates" to the people?
You trust the govt. to make your decisions "for" you?


That is a pretty ridiculous statement. There is a whole lot of difference between owning something thats purpose is to kill people to owning a method of transport that might be in an accident.

Comments like this make me realise why I have such a problem with people owning guns.



The purpose of anything can be to kill someone. Cars, lamps, the kitchen blender. Guns are a tool, just as the other listed items and many more. Crazy Dave (my new name for crazy people,  no real person in anyway or implied) could go to academy sports and buy a hatchet and machete and walk into the gas station and hack and chop up people to his hearts delight just as easily with a gun. So is your problem with all people owning guns? If thats the case, lets ban knives, axes and hatchets, machetes, garden hoes, and shovels. Just to be on the safe side, lets ban hammers too. You'll need a license to have power tools, but thats temporary, we're working on legislation to ban them as well.

There is a whole lot of difference between owning something thats purpose is to kill people to owning a method of transport that might be in an accident.   People purposely kill others with cars too, its not as common, but it does happen.

Ok now I'm off, my coffee is getting cold.



_____________________________

when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like nails

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

Genghis Khan

(in reply to susie)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 5:41:31 AM   
susie


Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

The purpose of anything can be to kill someone. Cars, lamps, the kitchen blender. Guns are a tool, just as the other listed items and many more. Crazy Dave (my new name for crazy people,  no real person in anyway or implied) could go to academy sports and buy a hatchet and machete and walk into the gas station and hack and chop up people to his hearts delight just as easily with a gun. So is your problem with all people owning guns? If thats the case, lets ban knives, axes and hatchets, machetes, garden hoes, and shovels. Just to be on the safe side, lets ban hammers too. You'll need a license to have power tools, but thats temporary, we're working on legislation to ban them as well.

There is a whole lot of difference between owning something thats purpose is to kill people to owning a method of transport that might be in an accident.   People purposely kill others with cars too, its not as common, but it does happen.

Ok now I'm off, my coffee is getting cold.




Do you have any idea how stupid you sound? The SOLE purpose of a gun is to maim or kill. What other use was it made for? Until you can tell me it has some other useful purpose then your argument is ridiculous.

(in reply to rexrgisformidoni)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 5:53:53 AM   
rexrgisformidoni


Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
Status: offline 		Maim or kill if that is the intent. Mine provide food and a sense of entertainment and accomplishment when target shooting. So mine have a useful purpose. Plus I am done arguing with you, you see what you want to. 

_____________________________

when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like nails

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

Genghis Khan

(in reply to susie)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 6:02:51 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni


The purpose of anything can be to kill someone. Cars, lamps, the kitchen blender. Guns are a tool, just as the other listed items and many more. Crazy Dave (my new name for crazy people,  no real person in anyway or implied) could go to academy sports and buy a hatchet and machete and walk into the gas station and hack and chop up people to his hearts delight..........................



Or he could go to the Target and begin a murderous blender rampage, slowly pureeing his victims to death.

(in reply to rexrgisformidoni)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 6:42:23 AM   
rexrgisformidoni


Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni


The purpose of anything can be to kill someone. Cars, lamps, the kitchen blender. Guns are a tool, just as the other listed items and many more. Crazy Dave (my new name for crazy people,  no real person in anyway or implied) could go to academy sports and buy a hatchet and machete and walk into the gas station and hack and chop up people to his hearts delight..........................



Or he could go to the Target and begin a murderous blender rampage, slowly pureeing his victims to death.



he certainly could. :)


_____________________________

when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like nails

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

Genghis Khan

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 6:56:35 AM   
bluepanda


Posts: 328
Joined: 12/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

Do you have any idea how stupid you sound? The SOLE purpose of a gun is to maim or kill. What other use was it made for? Until you can tell me it has some other useful purpose then your argument is ridiculous.


Target shooting. I do that every two or three weekends, and rarely maim or kill anyone in the process.


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In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 7:05:19 AM   
Raechard


Posts: 3513
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		Guns are a tool with a primary function, a knife at least can be used legitimately in the kitchen, I have no problem with people being armed with nail guns either as long as they are restricted to building sites or travelling to and from such like. In the UK the advantage of gun control is the lack of grey areas someone carrying a gun no matter who (apart from the few armed police) is guilty of a crime. Take the Toys R Us example, I'm not sure what happened in this case but in the UK someone could never argue killing someone with a gun wasn't premeditated. In the US someone could easily argue they carry a gun as a matter of legitimate routine and in a moment of madness killed someone in a heated moment. They'd be treated slightly differently than someone who intentionally wanted to kill but the difference between the two is hard to prove as people can legitimately own guns and carry them in public.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 11/29/2008 7:06:55 AM >

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 7:16:23 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		I read an article from JPFO written by a psychiatrist about people who fear guns. It stated that most who would state for example "If we didn't have gun laws people would be shooting each other over a parking space", are actually projecting their own lack of faith in their own judgement onto others. That is that they might shoot someone over something so trivial, and since everybody is just like them we all need to protected from ourselves.

A gun is a killing machine, nothing more, nothing less, and everybody should have at least one. Let the nutjobs have them, as long as the rest of us have them, one of us will kill them, and indeed a gun does not maim when used properly, it kills. You ALWAYS shoot to kill. You never brandish a gun, once the decision is made to pull a gun, you use it immediately. Then it is your word against a dead person's, and dead people tell no lies.

A gun is a killing machine, and we have the right to own killing machines. That well regulated militia is the government, with the placement of the comma it is obvious to those who did not learn to read on PBS that it means since the government needs guns, they can't take guns away from the People.

I believe that every word in that document was chosen carefully, and arms pretty much means in the arm, that is that it is not to be construed to mean that you have the right to own a thousand pounds of dynamite in city limits, nor biological, chemical or nuclear weapons of mass destruction. That means you have the right to kill someone, even a police officer, but not the right to kill everyone. It also does not mean there are not consequences if the killing was not justifiable.

The exercise of a right usually entails some responsibility. For example the right to free speech does not mean that you can shout "Fire" in a crowded theater, which has been established in the courts. Gun ownership has similar responsibilities. It is not a toy. If for example you decide to get drunk or high, you don't play with your gun, likewise you don't drive your car, something that can be almost as dangerous.

A responsible person knows this. However in the age of knee jerk reactions the government will try to stamp out these rights. Banning gun ownership because someone shot someone wrongly is no more reason to abolish the right to bear arms than it would be to abolish the right of free speech because someone actually did yell "Fire" in a crowded theater.

Now assume that they made it illegal to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater, OK so what, I am there to watch a show right ? However, what happens if there really is a fire ? I guess the idea is to just let everyone burn to death. Is that what you want ?

T

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 7:25:10 AM   
toddlefeet


Posts: 129
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		Guns Are for Self Defence & it should stay that way. People whom use them to maim or kill are the ones you should only be worried about. I'mma firm believer in gun rights but also gun & fire arm responsibility. Always keep your gun & your ammo seperate and out of the reach of kids and in a well hidden and securely locked box, not so easily to get into. less accidents that way. If your going to teach your child to shoot..Teach them the resposibility of fire arms & gun safety at a young age so it sticks with them for life. Teach them at pre teen yrs and your asking for trouble. I.E. Columbine, etc.  

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 7:28:57 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		 
I still don`t see anyone addressing the other realities of ownership.

Family members,friends and associates getting shot or killed by accident or during fights/squabbles.

Firearms that are stolen and therefore in the hands of criminals.

And the NRA`s efforts to stop any reasonable regulation is extreme.Their positions to allow anyone,even nutters,wife beaters,drunks,etc. to get access to guns is extremist and beyond the pale.




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President Obama

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 7:33:11 AM   
bluepanda


Posts: 328
Joined: 12/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
Yanno, I'm a REAL leftie/Socialist/liberal/Progressive/yada yada, and I don't have any problem with the 2nd A. I think its genesis was due to factors besides the notion that Amis need guns to prevent a tyrannical Gummint, but that's neither here nor there.

I think those things you delineated, such as waiting periods, permits, weapons training, etc., are good public policy, and would help support MY right not to be shot by some psychopath. They don't, in any way that I can see, keep anyone from owning arms. They are, at the most, an inconvenience, and I would think rational people would support background checks and such, so that THEY might never need to use THEIR weapons, and so that they might minimize their odds of being picked off by a Malvo.


I agree. I own 8 guns (3 handguns, 2 rifles, and 3 shotguns) with a 9th on order, so obviously I'm someone who comes down pretty hard on the side of gun ownership. But I absolutely believe this country needs better regulations controlling who can own them. I support lengthy waiting periods, during which time the buyer needs to undergo a thorough background check and complete a gun safety training course. Every weapon registered, and every gun test-fired out of the factory and  the ballistic results registered to the serial number of that gun. If a gun registered to you is used in a crime, and the bullet or shell casing is a ballistic match to the gun registered in your name, you get to explain why a gun for which you're responsible was used to kill someone. Much like you must do if a car registered to you runs a red light and takes out a baby carriage. If you sell the gun, you file a change of ownership much like you do when you sell a car, and there is always a record of who owns that particular gun at any given moment.

Perfect? No, not at all. This wouldn't eliminate gun crimes, but then again nothing else will either. The best we can hope for is to limit them, and one way to do that is set higher standards for who owns them and greater accountability for the people who do. If it makes it more difficult for me to obtain more guns, or more inconvenient for me to own them, that's just the way it goes. I think we gun owners need to make some compromises in order to achieve the greater goal of a safer country to live in. Registration doesn't frighten me; the government already knows I own guns because I've purchased several of them in stores. If the day ever comes that they decide to come for them, they already know where to look. Hopefully they also have a pretty good idea of what sort of reaction to expect when they do, but that's a subject for a different thread.


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Panda, Panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 7:48:58 AM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I guess alot of people live in some ivory tower or something. Don't pick on my Kalishnikov, he is happy here, he doesn't have to work. Just be able to work.

Nice story jlf, but I wonder why you didn't shoot, couldn't get a good chest shot ? I know you don't want to shoot anyone in the back or the balls, stuff like that but it seems to me you could have ordered him down and saved the taxpayers a few bucks. I believe if you shoot a full grown Man who is invading another's home in that manner, you should be reimbursed by the goverment for one round of ammunition. Like a bullet for a bullet policy.

Now people, I see a general misunderstanding here of how the world is. While the US government remained hell bent on taking our guns away,  Saddam Hussein's government was passing out rifles to the People. This of course because they knew that US forces were coming. With those weapons, why didn't they just mount their own offensive and possibly serve up Saddam to the "liberators" on a silver platter ? How many guesses do you want ?

All is not as it seems.

T


Ok, so using that logic and still following the second Amendment, then a person who refuses to own a gun should have the right to bear a dagger or a machete or some type of a knife instead. Technically they are bearing arms, since "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." does not specify the type of arms the people are allowed.




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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 8:31:21 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


The exercise of a right usually entails some responsibility. For example the right to free speech does not mean that you can shout "Fire" in a crowded theater, which has been established in the courts. Gun ownership has similar responsibilities. It is not a toy. If for example you decide to get drunk or high, you don't play with your gun, likewise you don't drive your car, something that can be almost as dangerous.

A responsible person knows this. However in the age of knee jerk reactions the government will try to stamp out these rights. Banning gun ownership because someone shot someone wrongly is no more reason to abolish the right to bear arms than it would be to abolish the right of free speech because someone actually did yell "Fire" in a crowded theater.

Now assume that they made it illegal to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater, OK so what, I am there to watch a show right ? However, what happens if there really is a fire ? I guess the idea is to just let everyone burn to death. Is that what you want ?

T


What you are referring to was an early 20th century Supreme Court decision that recognized that all speech is not protected under the First Amendment.

So, you are using an example of a Constitutional right being legally limited to argue that another Constitutional right should not?

Or are you arguing that, based on the limitations on the First Amendment, the courts can and should place limitations on the Second?

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 8:36:25 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: toddlefeet

Guns Are for Self Defence & it should stay that way. People whom use them to maim or kill are the ones you should only be worried about.


What a relief!!!!

And I can tell which ones those are how exactly?

(in reply to toddlefeet)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 8:41:01 AM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		~FR~

Here's fairly current stats taken from reputable sources. Maybe this heated debate can be based upon facts and not emotional hot buttons. This can apply to pro and anti gun control factions (myself included)


http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/080220/dq080220b-eng.htm    (Canada)

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict_c.htm#weapon  (Weapon use In 2005, 24% of the incidents of violent crime, a weapon was present.
Offenders had or used a weapon in 48% of all robberies, compared with 22% of all aggravated assaults and 7% of all rapes/sexual assaults in 2005.
Homicides are most often committed with guns, especially handguns. In 2005, 55% of homicides were committed with handguns, 16% with other guns, 14% with knives, 5% with blunt objects, and 11% with other weapons.)


_____________________________

Do Not Rile da Chosen Bear

Promiscuous boy you already know
That I’m all yours what you waiting for?

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 8:46:21 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

What you are referring to was an early 20th century Supreme Court decision that recognized that all speech is not protected under the First Amendment.

Actually, Holmes did not say that.  His reasoning was that the freedom of speech does not immunize a person from the consequences of his speech.  If you incite a riot with your words, you are still responsible for having started a riot and such damage to people and property as may ensue.


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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 8:53:02 AM   
UncleNasty


Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline 		By virtue of being alive I have a right and responsibility to protect and defend myself. I don't need words in an allegedly important document to either convince me of that, or to give me that right and responsibility.

I am unwilling to discharge or relinquish that right and responsibility, and to rely on another, or others, to provide protection for me, or to defend me.

I have no issue with anyone that chooses not to protect themselves, and does choose to let others shoulder that burden and responsibility for them. They are certainly free to make that choice.

I am also free to make the choices that I make.

One handed Uncle Nasty

(in reply to beargonewild)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 9:14:39 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Actually, Holmes did not say that.  His reasoning was that the freedom of speech does not immunize a person from the consequences of his speech.  If you incite a riot with your words, you are still responsible for having started a riot and such damage to people and property as may ensue.



I see, so not immunizing a person from the consequences of his actions does not limit that person's actions and therefore does not have the effect of limiting a previously broadly interpreted Constitutional right.



SCHENCK V. UNITED STATES, 249 U. S. 47 (1919) -- US Supreme Court ...
Schenck v. United States, 249 US 47 (1919) ... Schenck v. United States, 249
U.S. 47 (1919). Schenck v. United States. Nos. 437, 438. Argued January 9, 10,
...
http://supreme.justia.com/us/249/47/case.html   But the character of every act depends upon the circumstances in which it is done. Aikens v. Wisconsin, 195 U. S. 194, 195 U. S. 205, 195 U. S. 206. The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic. It does not even protect a man from an injunction against uttering words that may have all the effect of force. Gompers v. Bucks Stove & Range Co., 221 U. S. 418, 221 U. S. 439. The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent. It is a question of proximity and degree

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