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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 9:30:39 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

I see, so not immunizing a person from the consequences of his actions does not limit that person's actions and therefore does not have the effect of limiting a previously broadly interpreted Constitutional right.

Exactly.

You posted Holmes' opinion, and even highlighted the relevant phrase.  Now consider the practical impact.  The key is "...and causing a panic."  No panic, no riot, no harm basically equates to no foul under Schenck.  The rule is "you can't start a riot by shouting fire," not "you can't shout 'fire'."

And that is precisely the balance that is always the case where rights are concerned.  Rights are inalienable and undeniable, but no right relieves a man of responsibility for his actions and the consequences thereof.


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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 10:16:49 AM   
Crush


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quote:

ORIGINAL: susie
Personally sat over here on the other side of the Atlantic it always amuses me the lengths some people go to in justifying the ownership of an item specifically designed to kill people.


In a criminal's hand, a gun is meant to intimidate into compliance.  Of course, there are criminals and there are Criminals, the Criminals being those that seek to oppress a civilian population that can't defend itself easily.

In a law abiding citizen's hand, it:
a) evens the playing field against criminals.  It means that a 115 lb woman can defend herself against a 250 lb mugger.   And that a 50+ yr old guy like me is able to protect himself against a 20 yr old thug.
b) keeps Criminals wary.  When people are disarmed with simple means to defense, they get "creative" with bats, knives, molotov cocktails, IEDs, etc.   The Criminals are kept at bay with a well armed citizenry and so no conflict has to come between a people and its governing body.  And hence, people don' t have to resort to other means of preserving their Rights (as we in the US see life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness) because there is a "mutual respect" between both sides of the political line.

I know that the majority of law abiding citizens in the U.S. hope to NEVER use their weapon to defend themselves.  I know I never, ever want to have to stop someone using my handgun or any other weapon, for that matter.

But self-defense I consider a Right, not a privilege.  Of course, if we can't agree on this basic premise, then we can never have a discussion.  There have to be a set of "axioms or postulates" to use a mathematical term, that we agree upon at the outset.

Sure there will always be nuts out there.  But how else can you control a nut if you don't keep a "nutcracker" handy?

Just like there will always be people that want to control people (looking around here), but the difference is relinquishing control vs taking it.  The difference is significant.


_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to susie)
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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 10:21:35 AM   
Termyn8or


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Thanks CL, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I think that's a common misconception, that a right immunizes or somehow indemnifies someone who victimizes someone while excercising their rights. That was never implied nor inferred.

Some may choose not to own a gun, whether it be due to their lack of faith in their own judgement, like they would shoot someone over a parking space, or even if the have really inquisitive kids and no effective way to safely keep such a weapon. That is their choice. Similarly they can choose not to do drugs, not to protest in the streets or even shout "Fire" in a crowded theater, even if there is one. They can choose to let the police loot their house on a whim, testify against themselves, pay income tax or do anything they wish. But I know my rights and I intend to use them. It is not up to anyone else to make those decisions for me.

The resposibility of gun ownership is not to be taken lightly. For example the only rounds I have right now are copper clad high power (4400FPS) that look like some sort of armor piercing things or something. I would be hard pressed even in an emergency to fire those rounds within city limits, and would be more tempted to use that 1967 Chevy camshaft for defense. These rounds will simply slice through the assailant's body and continue through my house walls to who knows where. I like my neighbors and I don't want to kill them. One day I'll find some lighter loaded hollow points that will tear up the person I shoot more effectively and are much less likely to hurt anyone else.

If we want to go into specific wording, the right to keep and bear arms is pretty clearly defined. I would not be abject to regulations such as within city limits everybody must use hollow points for the reason I just stated. Not that you can't HAVE these high powered rifle rounds, just that you can't FIRE these high power rifle rounds. Actually in no such law should be necessary, but then look around. There are people as dumb as a box of rocks. Many even with guns do not realize the power they wield in their hand.

I am very aprehensive about firing those rounds, even in self defense, because while my life is worth something, it is not worth costing a child in bed across the street their chance at life. Compounding the problem is the fact that I live upstairs, making it even slightly more dangerous in that regard, between gravity/trajectory and all that. These are slicers man. That in fact reduces their effectiveness in stopping an intruder. Just the right kind of drugs in them, they might just keep on coming.

Another slant is that the Constitution was undoubtedly written for law abiding Citizens, and other than Indians or something the intent was that people would not be powerless against a tyrannical government. Many say that it was meant to insure that we could defend ourselves against marauders, theives, land pirates, but that was not the spirit of it in the first place IMO.

The fact is, if the people had solidarity, the government could come for one, and get opened up on from every window on the street. They would not know where it's coming from, now there's a deterrent. That, I believe was the intent. Every other amendment was written specifically to limit the power of the government, why should we believe that the second is any different ?

The fact that when those documents were written there were wild bears running around and all this was not the idea. I think taking the guns away in Austrailia was a crime, there are crocs down there ! What are people to do, just let themselves get eaten ? However that is a different story, because they never had the Constitution quite like ours. Of course that makes it no less foolish.

The government takes guns to protect itself, that mainly because they know they are the one who need to get shot.

T

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 10:40:28 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

I see, so not immunizing a person from the consequences of his actions does not limit that person's actions and therefore does not have the effect of limiting a previously broadly interpreted Constitutional right.

Exactly.

You posted Holmes' opinion, and even highlighted the relevant phrase.  Now consider the practical impact.  The key is "...and causing a panic."  No panic, no riot, no harm basically equates to no foul under Schenck.  The rule is "you can't start a riot by shouting fire," not "you can't shout 'fire'."

And that is precisely the balance that is always the case where rights are concerned.  Rights are inalienable and undeniable, but no right relieves a man of responsibility for his actions and the consequences thereof.





The example Holmes used was to point out that free speech is not an undeniable right when it infringes on the rights of others.  He also clearly pointed out that it depended on the context and circumstances of the situation and the right to free speech could be limited when there was a "clear and present danger". 

Whether it causes an actual panic or riot is irrelevant.  The issue is whether those words in the theater example may be interpreted as having the potential to do so. 

What you are trying to argue is a complete misinterpretation of the actual case.  There was no proof that the defendant had caused any actual harm, the entire case was predicated on the potential for that harm.

Again, from the decision Holmes wrote:

http://laws.findlaw.com/us/249/47.html
It seems to be admitted that if an actual obstruction of the recruiting service were proved, liability for words that produced that effect might be enforced. The statute of 1917 in section 4 (Comp. St. 1918 , 10212d) punishes conspiracies to obstruct as well as actual obstruction. If the act, (speaking, or circulating a paper,) its tendency and the intent with which it is done are the same, we perceive no ground for saying that success alone warrants making the act a crime. Goldman v. United States, 245 U.S. 474 , 477 38 Sup. Ct. 166, 62 L. ed. 410.    



(in reply to celticlord2112)
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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 11:35:47 AM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

Personally sat over here on the other side of the Atlantic it always amuses me the lengths some people go to in justifying the ownership of an item specifically designed to kill people.


Living on this side of the pond, it always amuses me the lengths some people go in justifying their total dependence on a nanny government, who watches their every move on cctv.

I'll keep my guns, you can keep Big Brother, OK?

(in reply to susie)
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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 11:38:22 AM   
slaveboy291


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

Personally sat over here on the other side of the Atlantic it always amuses me the lengths some people go to in justifying the ownership of an item specifically designed to kill people.


Living on this side of the pond, it always amuses me the lengths some people go in justifying their total dependence on a nanny government, who watches their every move on cctv.

I'll keep my guns, you can keep Big Brother, OK?



Living where I live it's always amusses me how people on the net use the "well things are like that there, but your place is not much better." argument that neither disproves the point the first poster makes or proves the point of the person making the statement.

(in reply to subrob1967)
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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 12:11:53 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
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Gun luvers,some facts.

"Giants' Burress accidentally shoots self in leg"

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/8866348/Giants'-Burress-accidentally-shoots-self-in-leg

Shit happens.

When you handle guns,the chances of really bad shit happening goes way up.

Weigh all the facts,not just the NRA`s select list of facts.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 12:25:25 PM   
masterBruce


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the places with the most people being killed are the places with tought gun laws , and owning gunsis why we are free now

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 12:34:35 PM   
Cuffkinks


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   I'm a life member of the NRA. There are things I agree with and things I disagree with regarding the NRA's views on guns and gun control. I have no problem with registering my weapons. I had to do that when I lived in NY. It's not required here in Florida, but there's still a paper trail. I always used to say that if the government tells me I have to turn in my guns, and makes this the law, then I would do so. I'm not a criminal, so I'm going to do as the law states. I've posted that POV on other "gun" threads. But...lately I've been re-thinking that decision. The way the economy is declining, (we still haven't hit bottom) things are going to get worse. Now, I'm not one of those doomsdayer types, preparing for anarchy. I'm actually a very positive person. But I know what I see around me. Desperate times may call for desperate measures, but I won't be the victim of them.
  Having been the victim of a crime involving a gun, I made myself a promise that it would never happen again. I take comfort in knowing that I can defend myself and my loved ones should I end up in a similiar situation. I pray that never happens. I also know that common sense must rule. If you have a bazooka on your hip, it's not going to help you if someone already has a gun drawn on you. But if there is even the slightest chance, I won't hesitate to defend.
  My point is...I'm just saying that if (God forbid) the time ever comes that the law says I have to turn in my guns...I don't know what I'm going to do. 
 

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 12:36:52 PM   
UncleNasty


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So Burress is either unknowledgeable, incompetent or an idiot in relation to firearms.

You are attempting to prove exactly what by bringing that to our attention?

One handed Uncle Nasty

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 1:52:02 PM   
painpup


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Bravo Joe another respected member

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 2:05:26 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Owner, look at what happened in Kenesaw, Georgia what,...15 years or so ago when they required all households to have a firearm!
Robberies absolutely plummetted!
I forget the percentage but it was enourmous!
And just for the record I helped out today on "Black Friday."
I bought a Springfield Armory XD-40 .40 cal 10 shot pistol at the gunshop where I go shooting.
So I'm doing MY part to get this economy going again!
How about you CL, Owner?
South Carolina has a "tax free" two days on firearms purchases on Black Friday and Saturday and the place was jumpin! Parking lot was full and you had range time wait of two hours!
Well, do you have any stats for pre and post arms law in Kennesaw? Also, do you know where Kennesaw is, and what the demographics are? Make sure you don't fall into the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.  And I am sure that you know that a decline from 2 robberies to one robbery is a (horn fanfare - da da da da da a la Wagner) spectacular, astounding 50% decline! Hooray for misleading stats!


Hippie, what if the good people of NYC were "allowed" to excercise their second amendment rights and armed robberies, home invaisions, murders, rapes etc "only" dropped by 5 or 10%?
It'll be interesting to see what happens to the crime rates in Washington, D.C. as more and more people start carrying guns won't it?
Do you think the rate of crime there will go up?
I lived in New Hampshire for ten years. ("Live Free or Die")
Everyone (almost) in N.H. owns and carries guns.
Lots of hunters and gun clubs up there.
In neighboring Massachusetts most don't due to their overly  restrictive laws.
The criminals aren't stupid. The rate of home robberies in Massachusetts is twenty times the rate of New Hampshire.
Even taking into account the population of both states (N.H. 1.3 m, Mass 5.8 m) that's still a huge disparity.

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 5:32:49 PM   
ResidentSadist


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-=There is sane Gun Control in the U.S.=- 

I have tried to claim an Uzi is good for duck hunting but they just won’t sell me one.  I need to be screened and acquire a special class 3 license in order to purchase military anti personal weapons.  The average U.S. citizen does not have access to full auto “man killing” weapons. 

Gun control is only politics.  I would be all for gun control because it is an ironic joke that successfully disarms those complaining about guns . . . unfortunately it also disarms obedient law abiding citizens leaving only disobedient criminals well armed.  Being a survivalist, I would become one of those criminals.

I currently bear scars on my cheek from a shotgun blast ricochet I acquired while I lived in Detroit and was protecting my slave during a robbery at the local store.  It was 3am and we ran up to the corner store for pickles, I had left the side arms I normally carried at home and took the dog with me.  My dog barked and it saved me. 

I took a dog to a gun fight and lived . . .  The odds of that ever happening again are pretty low.  I wish I had been armed, that robber never would have had the opportunity to get the barrel of his shotgun pointed at my head in the first place.  I am here today only by the grace of my dog barking just in time to make him flinch while I ducked.

I am against gun control and you can have my guns when you pry them from my lifeless cold hands.  Much of the wisdom in the OP and replies of this thread is irrefutable.

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 6:56:51 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: toddlefeet

Guns Are for Self Defence & it should stay that way. People whom use them to maim or kill are the ones you should only be worried about. I'mma firm believer in gun rights but also gun & fire arm responsibility. 


If I am using My gun for self-defense (which is the reason I own it in the first place), it is My intention to kill, although I might only maim.  I am not a hunter and I target shoot for the practice.  Not for the sport.  So where does that leave your first comment?

quote:

Always keep your gun & your ammo seperate and out of the reach of kids and in a well hidden and securely locked box, not so easily to get into. less accidents that way.


Uh NO!  Sorry...My gun is always loaded and it is not locked up.  Lot of good it would do Me in the middle of the night if I had to ask the rapist/robber to hold on for a couple of minutes while I go to unlock My gun and get to the second lock box for the ammo.  Should I ask him/her (must be PC here...could be a woman!) not to look so that My hiding place is still safe?  Now, just one more minute while I load up.  ????????????????

quote:

If your going to teach your child to shoot..Teach them the resposibility of fire arms & gun safety at a young age so it sticks with them for life. Teach them at pre teen yrs and your asking for trouble. I.E. Columbine, etc.  


I have to admit that this one is really throwing Me.  Teach them at a young age so it sticks with them for life...but teach them as a pre-teen and we're asking for trouble?  At what age do we teach them?
How about "this is dangerous...someday I will teach you to use it.  But it is Mine and off limits.  Don't touch!"  Be as graphic as you want to be.  Show them how lethal it can be.  Then put it away.  They shouldn't be going through Mom and Dad's night table drawers anyway!  It worked for Me and the other owners I know.  Watch them and teach them to respect the limits. 
Respect and obedience!  Now there's a concept!

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 7:39:20 PM   
masterBruce


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very well put

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 9:58:33 PM   
Crush


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Agreed, GoddessDustyGold!  My weapons are always in a ready state.   I do have handguns that are Double Action, at least for the first round, so that it is a whole lot less likely that I'd have an unintended discharge.   (There are no "accidental discharges" only "unintended discharges." )

I practice, but I discovered I like it as sport too.   I "plink" with a .22 handgun at the range, improving my form and accuracy.   I just love shooting playing cards at 10 yards!   Something very satisfying about putting a hole in each diamond or club on the card.   I used to shoot copies of the forms I had to sign off on when I was the CTO at the university....provided some much needed release!  

And I practice with my carry arms as well, since they are smaller and use a heavier caliber.  It is the responsible thing to do.

I shoot to stop the bad guy.  If he drops, I'm already on the phone to 911 for an ambulance.   If he's not a threat, I'll even try to do some basic first aid.

It isn't about killing anyone.   It is about using the leverage a weapon gives to protect yourself or others.  In Texas, even to protect property...but not in Florida.

Interesting, isn't it, how the "Law of Unintended Consequences" gives us more crime in places that only criminals end up carrying guns?     And how those places that are off limits, such as schools, become targets of opportunity ?






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"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)
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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 11:05:02 PM   
Termyn8or


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Crush, good news, "castle law" is federal law pretty much and now you can also protect your property out on the street.

T

(in reply to Crush)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/30/2008 1:35:17 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Not sure what double-wides have to do with it. We don't have em here either, but I know a lot of people who have guns.
Was talking to GT, not you.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/30/2008 1:50:15 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Owner, look at what happened in Kenesaw, Georgia what,...15 years or so ago when they required all households to have a firearm!
Robberies absolutely plummetted!
I forget the percentage but it was enourmous!
And just for the record I helped out today on "Black Friday."
I bought a Springfield Armory XD-40 .40 cal 10 shot pistol at the gunshop where I go shooting.
So I'm doing MY part to get this economy going again!
How about you CL, Owner?
South Carolina has a "tax free" two days on firearms purchases on Black Friday and Saturday and the place was jumpin! Parking lot was full and you had range time wait of two hours!
Well, do you have any stats for pre and post arms law in Kennesaw? Also, do you know where Kennesaw is, and what the demographics are? Make sure you don't fall into the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.  And I am sure that you know that a decline from 2 robberies to one robbery is a (horn fanfare - da da da da da a la Wagner) spectacular, astounding 50% decline! Hooray for misleading stats!


Hippie, what if the good people of NYC were "allowed" to excercise their second amendment rights and armed robberies, home invaisions, murders, rapes etc "only" dropped by 5 or 10%?
It'll be interesting to see what happens to the crime rates in Washington, D.C. as more and more people start carrying guns won't it?
Do you think the rate of crime there will go up?
I lived in New Hampshire for ten years. ("Live Free or Die")
Everyone (almost) in N.H. owns and carries guns.
Lots of hunters and gun clubs up there.
In neighboring Massachusetts most don't due to their overly  restrictive laws.
The criminals aren't stupid. The rate of home robberies in Massachusetts is twenty times the rate of New Hampshire.
Even taking into account the population of both states (N.H. 1.3 m, Mass 5.8 m) that's still a huge disparity.
You evidently missed my points. Marietta is next door to Kennesaw. Was not a bedroom community when the law was passed.
"Gary Kleck, a criminologist and gun-control critic attributes a drop of 89% in the residential burglary rate to the law.[3] Kennesaw is often cited by advocates of gun ownership as evidence that gun ownership deters crime. (see, for instance, this 2004 sheet of talking points from the Gun Owners of America). Others have challenged this conclusion, however, citing data showing that the number of burglaries in the 10 years spanning the passing of the ordinance remains roughly the same, while burglaries dropped in the city of Morton Grove following their gun ban.[4]. These statistics are in turn disputed because the report in question lacked important considerations such as proportions for the population and growth over time.
Current statistics indicate that Kennesaw's crime rate[6] is lower compared to surrounding cities like Marietta[7], Smyrna[8], Alpharetta[9], or Atlanta[10]." Wikipedia. The last paragraph is about the demographics I mentioned. Marietta and Smyrna aren't bedroom communities have a more varied distribution of incomes and educational levels, and have sizeable illegal communities. Alpharetta has a high concentration of corporate and industrial offices, with their commensurate daytime increase in workers from outside the area. And Atlanta ia Atlanta.

My statement on misleading stats speaks for itself.

My cautionary statement concerning the logical fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc is covered in the first paragraph.

Note that I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you. I reserve judgment about Kennesaw.   

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/30/2008 2:01:28 AM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline
Most people just giggle at the gun law in Kennesaw... I go to school in that area.  It's just a college town now due to rapid growth of the main college there. Besides, Roswell, which is more or less next to Kennesaw is considered one of the safest towns in the US... or GA I forget which, and there's no gun law there.

Marietta gets pretty ghetto in parts, Smryna is, like you mentioned, mostly corporate, and Atlanta doesn't really fit in the same catagory.

So... I don't think it's such a great support for your argument here.


_____________________________

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