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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 3:41:12 PM   
tkenslve


Posts: 98
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

IMHO, Walmart bares complete responsibility for this tragedy.  If for no other reason than this is not the 1st time this sort of incident has happened.  We hear about this all the time.  When something is in high demand with limited supply, sheeple go nuts!  Some retailers plan for this - Best Buy is a pretty good example.  I recall when the Wii came out.  And the PS3.  Near riots in some places!  So Walmart can't claim ignorance.  And since they could have reasonably expected a mob scene they should have done something to manage the crowd.  A rope line, a ticketing system, a couple of cops, any of these would have gone a long way to prevent this. 

And for those of you who don't think it was Walmart's fault: I recommend you follow the story and the lawsuit that is probably already being filed.  Walmart will probably settle with as little publicity as possible.

Happy Thanksgiving, indeed.

~Dave


And the people at Wal Mart forced the crowd to push and shove and eventually break down the door HOW? Is there no personal responsibility left in the world? These shoppers did this, not the store. Of course Wal Mart will be sued, you think any of the truly responsible parties have the deep pockets Wal Mart does? That is going to come down to yet another example of greed.

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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 3:49:38 PM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline 		Look.. I am very pro Wal Mart. Love shopping there, love their prices, love the lay out, love the usually quick check out. I will spend my money there, lots of it, this Christmas season.

But they are at fault here.

They could have prevented this.

(in reply to tkenslve)
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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 3:54:44 PM   
hlen5


Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
Status: offline 		I hope the mob who stormed the Wal-Mart remember for the rest of their lives that S/He was a contributing factor to the loss of someone's life. Acting like a herd in a panic for the sake of a few bucks. REVOLTING!!!!!!!!! 

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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 4:12:12 PM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Look.. I am very pro Wal Mart. Love shopping there, love their prices, love the lay out, love the usually quick check out. I will spend my money there, lots of it, this Christmas season.

But they are at fault here.

They could have prevented this.



(my italics)

....however, the mob that actually killed the poor sod for a few bucks off a TV are blameless?

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 4:26:55 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		Has anyone been shoppping on BlackFriday?  I'm just surprised there aren't numerous casualties.  My shopping excursion into the hell dimensions was probably one of the single most terrifying moments of my life!  After waiting outside in the dark for the doors to open, standing in line with a bunch of pissy grumpy shoppers, then being shoved like livestock through a single door opening, and down pre-fabricated corral like isles- I kept waiting for someone to pull out the cattle-prod and zap my ass to keep me moving forward.   The store stacks up huge boxes, and forces the masses through this maze of merchandise.  It annoyed me so badly, I burrowed my way through one of the box walls, diligintly thrilled to win my freedom only to find myself boxed in elsewhere.  I will never again shop on Blackfriday, and am convinced that I now suffer Post Traumatic Stress over the ordeal.  I may never Christmas shop IN a store again.  Now, I prefer to have the sexy UPS driver deliver my packages. 

One dead?  It is a miracle - evidence of divine intervention - that any survive at all. 

WinD
BlackFriday Survivor

(in reply to TNstepsout)
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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 4:28:22 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Look.. I am very pro Wal Mart. Love shopping there, love their prices, love the lay out, love the usually quick check out. I will spend my money there, lots of it, this Christmas season.

But they are at fault here.

They could have prevented this.



(my italics)

....however, the mob that actually killed the poor sod for a few bucks off a TV are blameless?

Sadly, the likelihood is this will be precisely the argument made by the ambulance chasers who will descend on this case like a plague of locusts.


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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 4:32:15 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Look.. I am very pro Wal Mart. Love shopping there, love their prices, love the lay out, love the usually quick check out. I will spend my money there, lots of it, this Christmas season.

But they are at fault here.

They could have prevented this.



(my italics)

....however, the mob that actually killed the poor sod for a few bucks off a TV are blameless?

Sadly, the likelihood is this will be precisely the argument made by the ambulance chasers who will descend on this case like a plague of locusts.



...wonder how many of the mob will try to sue Walmart for PTSD?

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 4:36:14 PM   
sevenhillssub


Posts: 4
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		I think both parties are responsible.

Wal Mart (and some other retailers) share part of the blame for helping chum the waters in the hope of bringing out the sharks in a blind frenzy of shopping. They know full well what kind of reaction these gimmicks elicit, they just hope they can manage not to wind up on the 10:00 news that evening and that any injuries are kept to an acceptable amount. Anything short of that is fine. Wal Mart certainly isn't unique here, they just happen to be the biggest name of the retailers that push this nonsense to the extreme that we see today. No store can completely control their customers, but I don't think it is a lucky coincidence that some companies don't have problems like this while others do time and time again. As mentioned earlier, Best Buy uses tickets to hand out for the high demand objects so it isn't like a Cannonball Run stampede through the store. So why is it so hard for others?

The "customers" deserve a large part of the blame as well for acting like compelte assholes with absolutely no regard for anyone else but themselves and their "needs". It really makes me sick that once the poor guy went down that they didn't stop. I read somewhere that the other workers couldn't even get to the guy for like 10 minutes.

The whole thing just makes me physically ill.

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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 4:38:26 PM   
bamabbwsub


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Joined: 5/28/2007
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quote:

And the people at Wal Mart forced the crowd to push and shove and eventually break down the door HOW? Is there no personal responsibility left in the world? These shoppers did this, not the store.


I'm with you, tkenslve. Although in hindsight (which is always 20/20), WM could have taken some better measures -- as some have suggested, roping off the masses -- I don't for a moment believe that they are "responsible" for this tragedy. They might have some culpability by not doing more to create a safer entry into the store, but the direct blame is to be placed on the people who stampeded over the employee...and kept going! Keep in mind that, although senseless and tragic, this is one incident out of thousands of shopping excursions that occurred today; in other words, it's an aberration.

I have to wonder how many of you who are arguing otherwise are also advocates for the right to bear arms. If the mantra "Guns don't kill people; people kill people" is valid, then apply the same logic: "Wal-Mart (and Black Friday sales) don't kill people; people kill people."

< Message edited by bamabbwsub -- 11/28/2008 4:41:54 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 4:39:07 PM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline 		They are not balmeless by any means but they are at fault.

Given proper measures, there would have been no mob in the first place.

There is much blame to go around but Wal Mart is a fault, morally, ethically and soon to be legally.

Wall-Mart created the conditions, the atmosphere and the catalyst, they should and will be held accountable.

You know there are movable barrier systems designed to move large crowds at a managable place. they are not very expensive and quite temorary.

< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 11/28/2008 4:41:27 PM >

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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 4:41:18 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

They are not blameless by any means but they are not at fault.

Ok, how in the hell does that make any sense?

If some one is to blame, are they not "at fault", by definition?




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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 4:41:38 PM   
Raechard


Posts: 3513
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		This could have been prevented with a customer assault course at the entrance. They’d do this in Japan and it would make great TV.

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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 4:42:08 PM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline 		First, the one part was a typo, it should have read and has beed corrected to. "they are at fault"

Second,

It makes perfect sense...

Fault and blame can be very different things, especially in matters of law.


< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 11/28/2008 4:45:35 PM >

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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 4:44:26 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bamabbwsub

If the mantra "Guns don't kill people; people kill people" is valid, then apply the same logic: "Wal-Mart (and Black Friday sales) don't kill people; people kill people."


...interesting point.......

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 4:46:31 PM   
bamabbwsub


Posts: 566
Joined: 5/28/2007
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quote:

You know there are movable barrier systems designed to move large crowds at a managable place. they are not very expensive and quite temorary.


And would WM still be to blame/at fault/(choose your definition here) if the crowd had overturned those barriers and the same thing happened?

Are sports teams or the arenas at fault when overzealous fans start trying to get to the field and someone is pushed off a balcony or is crushed to death against one of these barriers? I fail to see much difference -- the PEOPLE are still to blame.

_____________________________

"Everyone is normal until you get to know them." - Dave Sim

I rescue animals. My pockets and gas tank are always empty. My home is always hairy and my inbox full of sadness, but my heart is full when seeing those that are saved.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 4:49:35 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

Fault and blame can be very different things, especially in matters of law.

Wrong on both counts. 

Fault and blame are synonymous.  "At fault" and "to blame" are equivalent constructions.  Consult your local dictionary.

In matters of law, there is neither fault nor blame.  There is liability.

Is Wal-Mart liable?  Possibly.

Are the customers who acted like a pack of ravenous wolves liable?  Definitely.

Are some of those customers criminally liable?  Possibly.


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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 4:51:01 PM   
Raechard


Posts: 3513
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		More importantly who do you blame in a stampede the ones at the front being pushed by those at the back or the ones at the back not seeing what is happening at the front. There isn't going to be any legal consequences for the customers.

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えへまにんへえや
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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 4:51:48 PM   
painpup


Posts: 132
Joined: 2/16/2005
Status: offline 		as said in another forum about walmart i loved the time of the Dept store the window dressing on holidays and the sales back then were after the holidays ie Christmas but i'm kinda old and romantic about calmer times American made Goods the bell ringers Christmass Carols i could go on but those times are just a memory

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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 4:56:20 PM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline 		Ahhh,,,

But, in America at least, professional sports teams take extraordinary efforts to minimize that possibility.

My guess here, was the manager took his/her time to give the OK to unlock the doors and the very few up front greeters and staff were untrained. There were probably NO professional crowd control people and I doubt highly the management staff their ever went through any real crowd control training either.


< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 11/28/2008 4:58:54 PM >

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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 4:59:35 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

My guess here, was the manager took his/her time to give the OK to unlock the doors and the very few up front greeters and staff was quickly overrun. There were probably NO professional crowd control people and I doubt highly the management staff their ever went through any real crowd control training.




(i have italicised the suppositions)

...so on the basis of what you think probably has happened, you absolve the mob of all criminal liability and place it all on Walmart.
Ever heard of evidence based work?

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Profile   Post #: 60
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