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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 5:03:19 PM   
bamabbwsub


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quote:

But, in America at least, professional sports teams take extraordinary efforts to minimize that possibility.


"Extraordinary efforts?" Like what?

quote:

My guess here, was the manager took his/her time to give the OK to unlock the doors and the very few up front greeters and staff was quickly overrun. There were probably NO professional crowd control people and I doubt highly the management staff their ever went through any real crowd control training.


I'm guessing that NONE of the people who work in retail -- whether it's WM, KMart, Best Buy, Sears, etc. -- go through "real crowd control training." Besides, once the mob starts surging, what can a small group of people -- regardless of what kind of training they have -- do about it, anyway?

As I said before, "People kill people." This incident was an aberration.

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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 5:04:45 PM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline 		A very educated guess actually.
 
And one cannot charge a mob criminally.
 
 

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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 5:11:37 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bamabbwsub

I'm guessing that NONE of the people who work in retail -- whether it's WM, KMart, Best Buy, Sears, etc. -- go through "real crowd control training." Besides, once the mob starts surging, what can a small group of people -- regardless of what kind of training they have -- do about it, anyway?

As I said before, "People kill people." This incident was an aberration.


First Professional sports team in the United States hire an army of security and crowd control personnel an that is not even counting the ushers. They are trained and attend followup semenars regularly.

Second, if a retail establishment is going to create the conditions under which large "mobs' gather, well then, damn skippy... it is the responsibility of said corporation sto train their people on how to deal with them.

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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 5:18:11 PM   
Raechard


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From: S.E. London U.K.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
And one cannot charge a mob criminally.

Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceable to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the Act made in the first year of King George the First for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God save the King.

This act, repealed in 1974, gave a crowd one hour to disperse before their actions stopped being a misdemeanour and became a felony punishable by death. We've gone soft I tells ya.


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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 5:22:32 PM   
bamabbwsub


Posts: 566
Joined: 5/28/2007
Status: offline 		I recognize the point about security and crowd control personnel at sporting events, FDD. But even with all of the personnel and training, overzealous crowding can happen, and it's doubtful that even the experts could prevent an accident if the crowd acted as a mob.

Again I ask: Would WM still be to blame/at fault/(choose your definition here) if the crowd had overcome control personnel, overturned those barriers, and the same thing happened? At what point is WM not liable?

_____________________________

"Everyone is normal until you get to know them." - Dave Sim

I rescue animals. My pockets and gas tank are always empty. My home is always hairy and my inbox full of sadness, but my heart is full when seeing those that are saved.

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 5:25:25 PM   
bamabbwsub


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quote:

This act, repealed in 1974, gave a crowd one hour to disperse before their actions stopped being a misdemeanour and became a felony punishable by death. We've gone soft I tells ya.


Amen to that! (Death may be a bit harsh, though...)

_____________________________

"Everyone is normal until you get to know them." - Dave Sim

I rescue animals. My pockets and gas tank are always empty. My home is always hairy and my inbox full of sadness, but my heart is full when seeing those that are saved.

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 5:26:04 PM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline 		Perhaps not. But they didn't.

Their lack of taking simple common sense measures will cost.... big and will as cl has offered, make them liable.

(in reply to bamabbwsub)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 5:31:11 PM   
ChainGoddess


Posts: 731
Joined: 9/27/2008
From: Ireland
Status: offline 		I had never even heard of Black Friday,  until my American friend told me about it this morning.   Suddenly it seems to have taken on a whole new meaning.    Such a tragic and needless thing to happen.    I love the human race. 

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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 5:35:11 PM   
bamabbwsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Perhaps not. But they didn't.

Their lack of taking simple common sense measures will cost.... big and will as cl has offered, make them liable.


Oh, they may very well be liable...legally...for failing to look into a crystal ball and see that people would behave in such a heartless, cowardly manner as to run over someone and keep going in the name of getting a "good deal." I believe the law would term that kind of poor foresight as "negligence."

But the people themselves were NOT just "negligent." They KNEW they were trampling over some poor sod, yet few (if any...not sure) actually stopped to help him. That's way beyond "negligence" and is quite criminal under anyone's definition.



_____________________________

"Everyone is normal until you get to know them." - Dave Sim

I rescue animals. My pockets and gas tank are always empty. My home is always hairy and my inbox full of sadness, but my heart is full when seeing those that are saved.

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 5:39:06 PM   
bamabbwsub


Posts: 566
Joined: 5/28/2007
Status: offline 		You know, it seems to me that one of the best ways to prevent such a situation in the future is to have the bargain deals offered online only. Granted, you might prevent some people from being able to participate because they don't have a computer, but I guess it's no different than preventing people who don't have a car from participating in the "in-store only" sales.

Oh, wait...but then I guess the corporations could be sued for someone missing out on sleep, or getting carpal tunnel syndrome from clicking the "Add to Cart" button too many times.



_____________________________

"Everyone is normal until you get to know them." - Dave Sim

I rescue animals. My pockets and gas tank are always empty. My home is always hairy and my inbox full of sadness, but my heart is full when seeing those that are saved.

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 5:39:26 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		I don't know about your Wal*mart but the service at ours is excellent, and I've never seen any "lowlifes" there. Just other shoppers who looked just like me, clean cut people with their families shopping. Even today at black friday the busiest time for the shop, I had not one, but two employees drop everything to walk me to some area in the shop and hunt down a sale item for me.



quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I haven't been in a Walmart store in about 6-8 years since that scandal about them hiring illegal aliens.
You have to consider the people who shop at Walmarts, lots of lowlifes.
You're pretty much "on your own" in those kind of stores.
The low paid employees couldn't give a shit it seems. 
And I remember dodging all kinds of spills and stuff on the floor.
I felt like I needed a shower after comming out of a Walmart.
I'd much rather pay $50 yearly dues to Costco and get *much* better service and better quality stuff than the junk at Walmart.
The service you get from Costco employees is outstanding! If you ask them where something is they don't just tell you, they walk you right to it. "Sure, follow me!"
And they're always very friendly and smiling.
Huge difference!
And their stores are CLEAN too.
"Hey, where'd you get that shirt?"
"Oh, I got it at Wa......Sears."

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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 5:43:05 PM   
lovingpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bamabbwsub

Again I ask: Would WM still be to blame/at fault/(choose your definition here) if the crowd had overcome control personnel, overturned those barriers, and the same thing happened? At what point is WM not liable?


Never.... and this would be true of any retailer that put out outlandish ads and then intentionally understock.  No, it is not all Walmart's fault or any other retailer to whom this may ever happen.  The impetus was some too good to be true deal.  People are still liable, but there is by and large no way to hold them accountable as there were just too many individuals involved and no way to weed out those who stomped him intentionally or who just simply couldn't avoid his body in the pushing and shoving.  Walmart is a single entity and does have a role in this senseless tragedy.

The only poor souls not really accountable are the employees themselves and the few good souls that were out for a lark and a good deal if it was in the cards.  The rest, including the corporation, are guilty based on pure unadulterated greed.  That is both Walmart and the angry, stampeding masses.  Of course, Walmart will wind up taking one for the team in this case.  Further, it will make no difference in their practices as the lawsuit will not even be a ripple in their bottom line. 

lovingpet

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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 5:45:54 PM   
BKSir


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From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline 		These people fail, and should have their right to christmas time revoked.  Nothing like 20 years in prison to give you time to think about the meaning of the season.

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 5:51:42 PM   
bamabbwsub


Posts: 566
Joined: 5/28/2007
Status: offline 		YHMA, such statements that popeye made are just stereotyping. True, there is a diverse group of people who both shop at and work for Wal-Mart, and it isn't exactly where the Paris Hiltons of the world go to shop. (Case in point...I shop at WM, myself.)

His statements are equivalent to things like:

"All black people are..."
"All Southern people are..."
"All fat people are..."
"All rich people are..."

They're generalizations that may have some basis in truth, but it certainly encompasses a lot of people based on what was obviously a bad experience for him. Personally, I've been in Costco and have had trouble finding anyone to help me; it doesn't mean that they're all bad.

_____________________________

"Everyone is normal until you get to know them." - Dave Sim

I rescue animals. My pockets and gas tank are always empty. My home is always hairy and my inbox full of sadness, but my heart is full when seeing those that are saved.

(in reply to YourhandMyAss)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 6:04:49 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tkenslve

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I haven't been in a Walmart store in about 6-8 years since that scandal about them hiring illegal aliens.
You have to consider the people who shop at Walmarts, lots of lowlifes.
You're pretty much "on your own" in those kind of stores.
The low paid employees couldn't give a shit it seems. 
And I remember dodging all kinds of spills and stuff on the floor.
I felt like I needed a shower after comming out of a Walmart.
I'd much rather pay $50 yearly dues to Costco and get *much* better service and better quality stuff than the junk at Walmart.
The service you get from Costco employees is outstanding! If you ask them where something is they don't just tell you, they walk you right to it. "Sure, follow me!"
And they're always very friendly and smiling.
Huge difference!
And their stores are CLEAN too.
"Hey, where'd you get that shirt?"
"Oh, I got it at Wa......Sears."


As one of those 'lowlifes" who LOVES her Walmart, i will happily take the other lowlifes, red necks and inbred's over having to deal with someone like you. We thank you for putting us down and letting us know how stupid we are.


Ah no worries!
Hey, do they have free mouthwash samples in Walmart?
I bet they never run out of toothpaste.

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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 6:05:06 PM   
bamabbwsub


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Joined: 5/28/2007
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quote:

The only poor souls not really accountable are the employees themselves and the few good souls that were out for a lark and a good deal if it was in the cards.  The rest, including the corporation, are guilty based on pure unadulterated greed. 


I agree! The sales tactics stink...but as long as they continue to be profitable for the retailers, they'll still make those once-in-a-lifetime deals and people will still line up like cattle in the hopes of landing that HDTV for $500. Greed goes both ways, in my mind.

_____________________________

"Everyone is normal until you get to know them." - Dave Sim

I rescue animals. My pockets and gas tank are always empty. My home is always hairy and my inbox full of sadness, but my heart is full when seeing those that are saved.

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 6:05:10 PM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

It's terribly tragic and preventable. I was just watching a "dumbest criminals" episode last night that featured "dumbest shoppers" and I couldn't believe how insane those mobs were. People were getting into fights, falling and getting injured and you know it was just a matter of time before something like this happened. Theses stores should have seen the writing on the wall years ago and set up these events so they are not so unruly but instead they encourage the feeding frenzy. Oh and are the people to blame? YES!!!

Any wonder someone was killed? What the hell is wrong with people anyway?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZJVZ2p223o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tLtWD8sqxs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehSkxg7wvyk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeSgBL7gpAk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhp1ElO4MiA&feature=related



THIS is the very reason I shop on line when I do any kind of gift giving. There is no way that anyone will ever see this woman out "there" during any kind of sale. It has gotten to the point that I will make it simple. All gifts given from me, will be home-made or baked. It is simply not worth being killed over. I have a hard enough time in stores as it is, without the added bonus of mob shoppers.
 
A great place to shop is overstock.com. They offer free shipping and their stuff is usually really nice. I shopped there last year and was pleased with it.
 
 

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RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 6:12:35 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bamabbwsub

quote:

The only poor souls not really accountable are the employees themselves and the few good souls that were out for a lark and a good deal if it was in the cards.  The rest, including the corporation, are guilty based on pure unadulterated greed. 


I agree! The sales tactics stink...but as long as they continue to be profitable for the retailers, they'll still make those once-in-a-lifetime deals and people will still line up like cattle in the hopes of landing that HDTV for $500. Greed goes both ways, in my mind.


I agree with you there and I am sorry if it was not clear.  I see greed on the parts of these retailers because once the shoppers are there they will usually purchase even if it is not what they originally came to buy.  I see greed in the vicious shoppers who couldn't manage to even look where they were going in the quest for the holy HDTV.  It's disgusting and I, for one, am done with it.  Last year was enough for me!  (if you are wondering, see my previous post on pg 2 I believe).

lovingpet

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 6:16:47 PM   
winterlight


Posts: 1319
Joined: 2/18/2006
Status: offline 		I think Wal Mart has a responsibility to come up with a system that hopefully prevents a tragedy like this. No store can have enought security to stop what happened. It is up to PEOPLE to think and realize what they are doing to each other.

I think we have all lost our humanity and with things such as idiot shows on t.v. that show and talk about anything possible we have become de-sensitized. We see things on the news and just for some reason are no longer shocked by things any more. I think there are so many people in the population that are shocked. I can remember seeing video of parents fighting in a toy store for some toy that was really HOT one Christmas season or two.  One Father had a baseball bat and was on the top shelf and he meant business!  Sadly, this is what the world is coming too or i should say has come to. Wasn't there something within the last 6 months where somebody was attacked and nobody did anything?

I will not nor have i ever camped out or gotten up at the crack of dawn to go to a sale. Actually i hate shopping. I think i have been to one after Christmas sale.

I thinkthe people that trampled that clerk and killed him SHOULD be made responsible for what was done. We have become a pack like mentality, i get it first and damn you or anybody else if you get in my way! Sad but true. If that clerk has kids how do you explain Daddy/Mommy died because she got trampled at Christmas time.

Are there still good people out there? Absolutely, but negativity sells. There lies another point....
We have become a society that doesn't want to save, wants it now, doesn't care about others and their actions, cannot understand consequences if i do this...(fill in the blank) and has kids that have a me, me, me attitude and their parents have fed them the you are wonderful go do whatever you want to do. Some even let them roam around with other kids to do whatever damage they can do...

Are their decent parents out there? Yes, and have taught their kids well and would be horrified by what has happened. All across the board though i see and hear things that make me wonder...

For that clerk i feel bad about what has happened to Him/Her and the senselessness of it all.

What is in store for people next? I wonder.. How will they rise to the occasion? What will people do next? Caught on camera let's see what happens next. God forbid they show that man being trampled on t.v. I hope they don't!

Some days i just feel like we are going to hell in a handbasket. This is one of those days!

(in reply to TNstepsout)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Black Friday Death at Wal-Mart - 11/28/2008 6:18:31 PM   
scarlethiney


Posts: 492
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline 		Oh for heavens sake..................Walmart is NOT responsible for the actions of individual adults.  Those adults must take responsibility for their actions. No one forced these people to stampede the door, or to trample the Walmart employee.
Sales don't force people to behave badly or inappropriately. People make those decisions themselves and are completely responsible for their own actions. Every person who stampeded that door should be arrested for assault and manslaughter.
Walmart did not create this. Walmart doesn't have control over peoples thoughts and actions. Nor should they feel the need to put protection in place because some people are out of control and lacking in simple common sense and responsibility.

scarlet




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