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I am so disgusted... - 12/12/2008 10:16:50 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		at the Repubs who are willing to completely screw the whole country so they can bust the UAW and drive more manufacturing jobs to the foreign carmakers who have plants in Tennessee (Toyota, VW), South Carolina (BMW), Alabama (Mercedes-Benz), Georgia (Kia), Kentucky (Toyota) Mississippi (Toyota), and Honda had plants everywhere.

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/12/11/republicans-ask-workers-to-give-but-not-small-businessmen-or-bond-holders/

That's what it's all about. Union-busting and kissing foreign corporate ass. They don't give a shit about the millions who indirectly rely on the Big Three for their jobs. The suppliers, the banks that fund the suppliers, the people who work for the suppliers, the grocers and doctors and mechanics and hair cutters who serve the people who work for the suppliers. No, they could give a shit about the country.

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RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/12/2008 10:21:17 PM   
Aszhrae


Posts: 1030
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline 		Girl is far from being disgusted.
Honestly the big three did it to themselves. Priced themselves right out of the market, Union heads only really care about the union dues that they receive and each time the company shows a profit the UAW decides that its time to go on strike.
Awww, poor babies. Did it to themselves.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
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RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/12/2008 10:34:47 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I agree, on the business channel tonight a panalist said that it was funny to watch all those free market Republican Senators try to set the labor market wages for auto workers.
They make about $28 per hour which is not a lot of money these days!
But, these "free marketers" had no problem bailing out industries who's workers make $200k - $1M and more on Wall Street and in the banking industry!
They turned their backs on Main Street!
COCKSUCKERS!

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RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/12/2008 10:50:10 PM   
MzMia


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Joined: 7/30/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I agree, on the business channel tonight a panalist said that it was funny to watch all those free market Republican Senators try to set the labor market wages for auto workers.
They make about $28 per hour which is not a lot of money these days!
But, these "free marketers" had no problem bailing out industries who's workers make $200k - $1M and more on Wall Street and in the banking industry!
They turned their backs on Main Street!
COCKSUCKERS!


Popeye?
Tell us what you really think next time!
lol
Our country is going to be so changed soon, many people will have no idea
what hit them.

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RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/12/2008 11:03:21 PM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline 		I had to explain to a few of my co-workers that it was there, but for the grace of God we go, because our jobs are a little more difficult to outsource.   The fact is that no one living in these United States who has responsibilities beyond doing one's hair and nails, thinks that $28/hour is too much money for a skilled person to be making, and that in fact, they are greedy, wealthy MFers for wanting that much.

I too find the drama to be complete BS, and continued selling out of American manufacturing and workers, in favor of depending on other folks for everything.   It seems to be perfectly okay to waste tax payer money on foreign companies, and major incompetent corporations as long as most of the workers make more than $200k/year.     M

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RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/12/2008 11:16:48 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aszhrae

Girl is far from being disgusted.
Honestly the big three did it to themselves. Priced themselves right out of the market, Union heads only really care about the union dues that they receive and each time the company shows a profit the UAW decides that its time to go on strike.
Awww, poor babies. Did it to themselves.




Did the unions force GM to produce 8 different Escalade models that won`t sell during 4 dollar gas times?

No one is selling cars right now.Every brand,even imports are down.

700 billion for bankers (who produce nothing)with no accounting and we can`t drum up a 14 bil. bridge loan for Detroit?

Something`s a miss.

To put things into perspective,we throw 14 billion dollars down a rat hole every month,in Iraq.

We can`t get that much to help out the big three?

~~~~~~~~~~

We could easily fall into an economic depression,if Detroit fails.

There`s an estimated 16 million more home foreclosures to come in the next two years.

Letting Detroit fail would only add to that.

I`m still quite amassed at the lackadaisical attitudes concerning out economic future.As if folks were some how immune to job loss,business loss,home loss,retirement savings loss,etc.

Dosen`t everyone have to eat,wear clothes,stay warm and dry?

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RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/13/2008 12:09:24 AM   
TheUtopian


Posts: 259
Status: offline
quote:

They make about $28 per hour which is not a lot of money these days!
But, these "free marketers" had no problem bailing out industries who's workers make $200k - $1M and more on Wall Street and in the banking industry!
They turned their backs on Main Street!
COCKSUCKERS!



28 bones an hour is basically chicken slop if you live on the west coast or one of the northeast financial meccas. I just hope if it gets super super bad and we have riots, folks will decide to burn down Goldman-Sachs headquarters---with management inside---instead their own neighborhoods.

Please Please Please......don't burn down your local corner store or neighborhood police station----drive to the Hampton's instead and look for Hank Paulson's place

Here's a breakdown on the vote :

Yes to TARP, No to auto Yes to TARP Absent for auto Sen. Max Baucus (D-MT)
Sen. Robert Bennett (R-UT)
Sen. Richard Burr (R-NC)
Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-GA)
Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK)
Sen. Norm Coleman (R-MN)
Sen. Bob Corker (R-TN)
Sen. John Ensign (R-NV)
Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-IA)
Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH)
Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT)
Sen. Kay Hutchison (R-TX)
Sen. John Isakson (R-GA)
Sen. Jon Kyl (R-AZ)
Sen. Blanche Lincoln (D-AR)
Sen. Mel Martinez (R-FL)
Sen. John McCain (R-AZ)
Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY)
Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-AK}
Sen. John Thune (R-SD)

Absent for auto
Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-TN)
Sen. Joe Biden (D-DE)
Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX)
Sen. Larry Craig (R-ID)
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC)
Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE)
Sen. John Kerry (D-MA)
Sen. Gordon Smith (R-OR)
Sen.Ted Stevens (R-AK)
Sen. John Sununu (R-NH)








- R

< Message edited by TheUtopian -- 12/13/2008 12:29:52 AM >

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RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/13/2008 12:17:50 AM   
Aszhrae


Posts: 1030
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline 		Save it.

Years ago they had their chance to make things right and they didn't and now its come back to kick them in the ass.

They can fix this, but they may just have to start over.

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RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/13/2008 12:23:08 AM   
Aszhrae


Posts: 1030
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline 		Would you rather them make twice that, maybe three times that.
Instead of paying 60,000$ for a car, we will all just have to mortgage our houses to buy the same car for 180,000$
But that's okay, who really cares what happens after retirement. Still be getting 70,000/yr pension. All's fair right.
Bullpucky
Let them start over like most businesses that fail do.

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RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/13/2008 12:26:21 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aszhrae

Girl is far from being disgusted.
Honestly the big three did it to themselves. Priced themselves right out of the market, Union heads only really care about the union dues that they receive and each time the company shows a profit the UAW decides that its time to go on strike.
Awww, poor babies. Did it to themselves.




Did the unions force GM to produce 8 different Escalade models that won`t sell during 4 dollar gas times?

No one is selling cars right now.Every brand,even imports are down.

700 billion for bankers (who produce nothing)with no accounting and we can`t drum up a 14 bil. bridge loan for Detroit?

Something`s a miss.

To put things into perspective,we throw 14 billion dollars down a rat hole every month,in Iraq.

We can`t get that much to help out the big three?

~~~~~~~~~~

We could easily fall into an economic depression,if Detroit fails.

There`s an estimated 16 million more home foreclosures to come in the next two years.

Letting Detroit fail would only add to that.

I`m still quite amassed at the lackadaisical attitudes concerning out economic future.As if folks were some how immune to job loss,business loss,home loss,retirement savings loss,etc.

Dosen`t everyone have to eat,wear clothes,stay warm and dry?
The real unemployment rate is already over 10%. Every day there is news about some corp. or another cutting jobs. I am baffled as to how people who cut hair and do nails and deliver drinks in restaurants and on airplanes think that it's not going to affect them.

I need a new furnace. I'm in ATL, so it's not a pressing need, and I can put it off. I figure the labor and markup is probably about 50% (of roughly 2K). If three people make that decision each month, who use(d) the same company, there goes one fairly well-paying job. Most people I know have stopped dining out. It's an unnecessary luxury these days. The price of granite countertops is dropping. The vacancy rate for commercial space in my zip is increasing, and I live in a very well-to-do zip (30068).

All these people who are losing their jobs supported other people in service occupations. It's a cascade effect.

Well, maybe the UAW could make a few concessions. But not before management and the stockholders do, I say. When those autoworkers go home for the day, GM and Ford and Chrysler cease to exist. The company is its people.  If the stockholders want to do what is right for the long-term health of their companies, they'll forego a few dollars in dividends. Same with management. As owner pointed out, it isn't the line workers who made these incredibly stupid and short-sighted marketing decisions.

I'd actually like to see the UAW, in conjunction with its membership, buy out GM or Ford. Then the workers would be the stockholders, and they and whoever ends up in managerial positions could work together to do what is best for the company as a whole, a la the German corporate-union cooperation model.

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RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/13/2008 12:28:38 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline 		It still seems strange to me, hearing people say that something like $28 an hour isn't a good wage. If I were making $28/hour at a job around here, I could literally live in The most expensive neighborhood within a 75 mile radius - comfortably.  I know a LOT of people here in Oklahoma that are living comfortably - keeping all their bills paid, and still having money for "a life" other than paying bills - on $10 to $12 an hour.
 
Even when the GM plant here in OKC was still open, I think the highest paid position there was only like $17/hour.  But everything is considerably cheaper here as well - lower utilities, lower groceries, lower fuel, Considerably lower property taxes (mine are like $600/year for a 4bd place in a decent neighborhood 10 minutes from downtown and in the shadow of the military base).  The only thing that does Not seem to be lower here than elsewhere is the price of a new car - especially from any of the Big 3.  Even here where everything else is cheaper, it's almost as if the Big 3 think we get the same sort of paychecks that folks do on either Coast - and therefore have pretty much priced themselves right out of the market for everything except trucks.  And if it weren't for the fact that so many people in Oklahoma NEED a truck for work purposes - farms, ranches, etc - those sales would be gone as well due to pricing.

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RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/13/2008 12:53:42 AM   
TheUtopian


Posts: 259
Status: offline
quote:

Even when the GM plant here in OKC was still open, I think the highest paid position there was only like $17/hour.  But everything is considerably cheaper here as well - lower utilities, lower groceries, lower fuel, Considerably lower property taxes


Honestly Peach.....no punches pulled - The Midwest/ lower-southeast-sunbelt does not even compare with the west coast or northeast financial meccas for cost of living.

quote:

Would you rather them make twice that, maybe three times that.
Instead of paying 60,000$ for a car, we will all just have to mortgage our houses to buy the same car for 180,000$
But that's okay, who really cares what happens after retirement. Still be getting 70,000/yr pension. All's fair right.
Bullpucky
Let them start over like most businesses that fail do.


Well.....I'm certainly on record with my opinion that we should allow Chrysler--- which is owned and managed by an asset-stripping hedge fund--- to sink to bowels of hell - But I've come around a tad bit with regard to GM and Ford.....and I think we should save/protect the tool-and-die/assembly-line/production aspect of those corporations as they are of vital importance to our national infrastructure, and can be re-tooled to help rebuild it.

Again....no punches pulled here - I consider Wall Street/ The Investment banking industry, to be a complete parasite.....And I'd like to watch it, literally burn to the ground, over over on Youtube. That industry should have never been bailed out.





- R

< Message edited by TheUtopian -- 12/13/2008 12:55:32 AM >

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My tears are the cure for cancer - I sweat testosterone, bleed black, and piss excellence.

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RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/13/2008 1:02:37 AM   
Aszhrae


Posts: 1030
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

It still seems strange to me, hearing people say that something like $28 an hour isn't a good wage. If I were making $28/hour at a job around here, I could literally live in The most expensive neighborhood within a 75 mile radius - comfortably.  I know a LOT of people here in Oklahoma that are living comfortably - keeping all their bills paid, and still having money for "a life" other than paying bills - on $10 to $12 an hour.
 
Even when the GM plant here in OKC was still open, I think the highest paid position there was only like $17/hour.  But everything is considerably cheaper here as well - lower utilities, lower groceries, lower fuel, Considerably lower property taxes (mine are like $600/year for a 4bd place in a decent neighborhood 10 minutes from downtown and in the shadow of the military base).  The only thing that does Not seem to be lower here than elsewhere is the price of a new car - especially from any of the Big 3.  Even here where everything else is cheaper, it's almost as if the Big 3 think we get the same sort of paychecks that folks do on either Coast - and therefore have pretty much priced themselves right out of the market for everything except trucks.  And if it weren't for the fact that so many people in Oklahoma NEED a truck for work purposes - farms, ranches, etc - those sales would be gone as well due to pricing.


Thank you.
Not just where your at. It's cheaper to purchase a foreign made vehicle.

what's that standing joke? oh yes, don't buy domestic if it was completed on a Monday or a Friday.

By the way, when girl was residing in Ontario, girl knew a few people that worked at the Chrysler Trim Plant in Ajax, Ontario and knew a few people that worked at the GM plant in Oshawa, Ontario. The things that went on while vehicles were being assembled on the line and the amount of beer that the guys drank during lunch break, would just astound you. You purchase domestic from the big three and you get a vehicle that was built by such guys on the line.
They are business, no bail out, you failed, start over.

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RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/13/2008 1:15:35 AM   
bluepanda


Posts: 328
Joined: 12/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
We could easily fall into an economic depression,if Detroit fails.

There`s an estimated 16 million more home foreclosures to come in the next two years.

Letting Detroit fail would only add to that.

I`m still quite amassed at the lackadaisical attitudes concerning out economic future.As if folks were some how immune to job loss,business loss,home loss,retirement savings loss,etc.

Dosen`t everyone have to eat,wear clothes,stay warm and dry?


Over the last couple of weeks, I've been fascinated to see how each day's disastrous economic news has failed to knock the stock market off the tracks. No matter how bad the news, the market  still manages to rally and finish up almost every day. Investors seem to have "priced in" the bad news; they already expect it to be bad, and refuse to let it worsen their analysis of the market. I view this investor confidence as a fairly strong indicator that the market may indeed have bottomed, or is at least in the process of bottoming.

I find myself wondering if we're seeing a little bit of the same thing here. I wonder if we're seeing an overconfidence, a cockiness - lawmakers and other principle parties in the automaker negotiations have become so accustomed to seeing disaster after disaster bounce off the market like bullets off of Superman's chest, they just don't quite believe this will cause any damage the market can't shrug off. I can't help wondering if a lot of them are just failing to comprehend how fragile this bullish trend really is, how close the market is to a tipping point - and make no mistake about  it, it  is still teetering on the brink of a collapse and another 2,000-point freefall.

< Message edited by bluepanda -- 12/13/2008 1:18:47 AM >

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RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/13/2008 3:55:18 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheUtopian

quote:

Even when the GM plant here in OKC was still open, I think the highest paid position there was only like $17/hour.  But everything is considerably cheaper here as well - lower utilities, lower groceries, lower fuel, Considerably lower property taxes


Honestly Peach.....no punches pulled - The Midwest/ lower-southeast-sunbelt does not even compare with the west coast or northeast financial meccas for cost of living.


Utopian, during the short period while I lived on the east coast, I was utterly appalled at some of the prices that I saw - and that was 2005.  I think what shocked me the most when it came to "sticker shock" was the vast difference in property taxes - what I pay in property taxes here is a drop in the bucket compared to what the same piece of property would cost me if dropped into Baltimore or Atlanta (two of the 3 places I lived while out of Oklahoma for that year.)  What I was expected to pay in Rent was proportionately higher as well - probably due to the sheer insanity of the property tax levels in such areas.  What I paid for a 1bd studio type apartment in a questionable neighborhood in either place would rent me a 3bd house in a decent neighborhood here.  Gas prices were already what I considered outrageous and topped $2/gal all along the east coast long before I moved back to Oklahoma in October of that year - where gas hadn't yet hit $2/gal, and didn't until after Thanksgiving.
 
The GM plant that used to be here was one of the area's 2 top employers - second only to the air force base that I live in the shadow of.  Unfortunately - it was tooled to make high end SUVs that no one around here could afford to buy - and rather than retooling it to produce a mid-line or economy car, GM elected to simply close the plant down when SUV sales continued to plummet due to increasing fuel prices.  The metro area started feeling the pinch of that in a Very short amount of time as the ripples of that plant closure spread out.  OKC and it's surrounding burbs have finally hit a bit of a balance point from that - but it's been several years in getting here, and it's not guarenteed to remain balanced if things continue to get worse all over.  We're just lucky that much of the state has remained primarily ag related, and the jobs have remained in that area as well - it means we haven't been As hard hit as areas along the coasts when manufacturing jobs were lost.

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RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/13/2008 4:18:46 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline 		I dont have a problem with anyone going after the unions. In fact, I think it's a good idea. As far as I am concerned the big 3 would be much better off if they could lose the unions all together. The Nissan factory in Tennessee has no problem keeping it's empoyees happy without a union stealing part of their pay to do it. Maybe the government should be asking them for a bailout plan.

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RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/13/2008 6:05:13 AM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Granted the UAW should have their ass handed to them and not let the door hit them on their butt on the way out, but you can't do that at the expensive of the domestic automotive manufacturing companies. The $28.00 comment is almost funny when someone says that's not that much for skilled labor...I agree that that is fine for skilled labor, tool-makers, millwrights, machine repairmen, etc., but lets make it perfectly clear, assembly line workers are not skilled labor, they are good at a particular task, not anything that requires years of training, so $28 an hour for these folks is just ridiculous. Labor costs should be put in line with the job, not because a union negotiated it to a certain level. The entire automotive manufacturing community is taking a big hit right now, normal sales would be around 17 million vehicles a year and right now it looks like it is running around a low of 9.5 million and if you have a rosy outlook maybe a high of around 12 million. This includes transplants as well, so they are all feeling the pain, the catch is, most of the transplants are not in the same cash crunch since they don't have the long-term obligations of paying pensions and health benefits for retirees. US automakers have been here for 100+ years, most of the foreign interests have only been here for 12 years or less (Honda a hair more). Honda originally had pension plans but saw the writing on the wall and switched to 401Ks early on. This whole problem is all about cash flow...they all are down, but the big three are the only ones that are living close to the edge because they may run out of cash to pay out. That all being said, you (we) cannot let the big three collapse, it would be detrimental to the entire economic system in North America. Say Chrysler fails and goes under, they buy their seat latches from Joe Blow. Joe Blow makes seat latches for everyone, Chrysler, Ford, GM, Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Etc. Joe blow loses that entire segment of his business and since all the other volumes are down, he can no longer make ends meet. So now Joe Blow goes out of business....now no one else can get seat latches so they are in a crunch and they can't make cars, so they also go out of business. It really will trickle like that because there are a lot of Joe Blows making a lot of the parts for all of the automotive folks out there. If one Automaker falls, they may all fall. It would be cheaper to loan them the money and take a chance right now, than it would be to try and pick up the pieces later...if that would even be possible. So those who say let them fail and start over...you better really think that over because everyone will be affected, absolutely everyone.

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RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/13/2008 6:29:57 AM   
TNstepsout


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Status: offline 		Although I think the failure of the Big 3 will have severe economic repercussions, I don't think it will be as catastrophic as the banking failure might have been had we not passed TARP.  I wasn't in favor of TARP because I wanted to bail out banks and bankers, I just knew if we didn't pass it, the fallout would be epic. Banks don't make something people want, they make something people need....money!  In tough economic times people don't buy cars, but they will save money or borrow money. Banks have a better opportunity to come back to life.

The Big 3 auto makers have fundamental flaws they didn't know how to, or perhaps were unwilling to address. I just didn't think they had the ability to come back and flourish even with a bridge loan. I think the UAW was a big part of the problem they faced. It really doesn't matter if $28 per hour is a living wage or not. If a company cannot afford to pay it, they can't afford it. If they lower wages and individuals can't afford to work for the auto makers any more, then they need to quit and find something else. It's not up to the government to shore up an industry so they can continue to pay wages (and benefits) at a particular level.  We have to stop thinking like that.

By the way, it's not just the $28 per hour that is putting the hurt on the automakers. By the time other benefits are added in, the automakers pay out an average of $72 per hour!  It's choking the life out of them. I know the Big 3 made some bad decisions in terms of their lines and such, but I really think their biggest problem is the UAW.   Other automakers in the US not tied to the UAW are managing to get through the current downturn and the BIG 3's overseas operations are working at a profit. It's only here where they are forced to pay exaggerated wages and benefits due to the UAW stranglehold that they are failing. The union was completely unwilling to compromise to help facilitate the bailout. They really believe the problem is 100% due to poor management and the bad economy. They are going to fool themselves right into the unemployment line!

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RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/13/2008 6:36:27 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		If these companies go down, their shareholders will get little or any of their investment back - the share price will collapse further as the companies decline.

So, offer the shareholders half price on what the share price is at lowest and nationalise the three companies under a new company - so also removing the union. Having seen how the unions did their very best to assist management in the destruction of British Leyland (a nationalised conglomerate of car makers) in the 70s/80s, the unions should not be allowed anywhere near any of this.

Reprivatise the new company by way of distributing shares amongst the workforce and retirees on equal basis - no proportionate distribution based on wages so that management get a hundred times what the shopfloor get. The share distribution should be by way of a shareholding agreement that provides for any sale of shares to be offered first to other shareholders. The share distribution should also make up part of remuneration so that wage overheads can be reduced. Retirees' benefits will henceforth also be reduced, the shares making up the difference - and all pension benefits for new workers stopped.

The entire senior marketing team should be dismissed and replaced with the junior members of the marketing team. If the banks wont provide finance to the new operation, government should fund it on the same basis as a bank would.

The jobs are retained throughout the supply chain. The production costs are reduced whilst workers still get the same or more remuneration via the shares they hold. Retirement plans can be maintained, part replaced by share holdings. The company turns out cars at lower cost more efficiently and at higher quality since workers are now owners. The union is removed. Poor managements in future can removed by way of shareholder voting (by the workers).

Or, we can throw money at it. That seems more popular, particularly with the current stakeholders.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: I am so disgusted... - 12/13/2008 6:59:23 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		~FR~

So those that are screaming that the Big 3 need to be saved, that also hate Bush, are going to say "Good job" when Bush taps into funds to help the Big 3?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/13/AR2008121300539.html

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 20
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