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ORIGINAL: TheUtopian

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ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Hippie, they must be moving to Myrtle Beach because they're opening storefronts here!
About a mile away in the last 3 months a Tax Accountant, Bakery, Real Estate office, a Dollar Store, a Karate school, and a few other things opened.

You might be seeing people "cashing out", you know, dropping out with some money so they can have their own businesses and not work for a big company or whatever. My brother's looking to do that, except he doesn't work for anyone. He made his nut fixing calculators and IBM typewriters back before anyone had computers, in DC. All those government adding machines... he hit a gold mine.

That's my guess. I haven't been to Myrtle Beach since around 77 or so. I'm sure it's a bit different.

HAR! 

I'm willing to wager anyone here that for every new store-front lease signed for a new entrepreneurial adventure in South Carolina - eight to twelve existing pursuits will have perished/cease to exist in places like California.

But lemme emphasize one thing.....Popeye is on the money in what I think he is saying regards the '' individual '' or the new ''mom and pop'' type enterprises/entrepreneurial opportunities that will arise in the near-term future.

For the most part, sole proprietorship's and ''mom and pop'' type operations are not the entities that hold lease contracts with America's large-scale multi-story shopping malls or your typical new suburban strip malls - Corporate America is. And that's who's falling apart right now. The further deteriorating economic climate will not in any way be conducive for these small to medium size retailers to survive. Their inner-workings/ bureaucratic operational structure at management level is not designed thrive on low volume and ulta-slim gross profit margins.

Personally, I see this as a good thing.... America will thrive once again after its eventually returned to single entrepernuial pursuits, farmers, inventors, sole proprieterships and people-powered co-ops - After all... that's what led it to greatness from the beginning.








- R

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You may very well be right about small business failures in Cali and other hot markets. At least they used to be hot. I'll be the first to admit that I have no idea about when, where, and why things are going to happen.

But my current thinking is that it will be very small "mom and pop" enterprises that will weather the storm and come out the other side OK. And I mean microbusinesses that actually produce a product that can be traded for another product.

I make soaps, and I can easily make anything else that requires very basic chemistry. I will happily trade for eggs or tomatoes or whatever, but accountants and HR Blockheads and all those other parasitic people are/will be useless to me.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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It's very odd that some people would think that working class people making a good week's pay is a "bad" thing.

It's only bad if it's more than what the market will bear.

It's only bad if it makes the worker's output to costly to sell in a competitive market.

And when it's bad, it's bad for everyone.

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CL, tell it to the Armies of Lawyers out there who still think they're worth $200 per hour.

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ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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It's very odd that some people would think that working class people making a good week's pay is a "bad" thing.

It's only bad if it's more than what the market will bear.

It's only bad if it makes the worker's output to costly to sell in a competitive market.

And when it's bad, it's bad for everyone.

OMG!!! Celtic I agree with you on something. (I better look outside and make sure the sky is still there)

This is EXACTLY the problem we have with the UAW and some other unions. The pay is more than the market can bear. The auto makers can no longer pay these high wages/benefits and make cars that compete in the market. Yes it's nice if everyone can be guaranteed a living wage and benefits but that's a pipe dream. That is not the reality of the economy now or ever. What other industry anywhere starts high school grads with no additional education at $14 an hour with the potential of making as much as $28 with full pension, health benefits etc.... My kids are right at that age and believe me if there was anything close they would jump at it.

My daughter works retail for $8.50 while going to school and her hours are constantly fluctuating. Sometimes she works 40, sometimes 25. She's completely at the mercy of management. But that's how it is. My son works at a club for tips and his hours fluctuate too. Sometimes he might bring home $500 a week, sometimes $50. But that's life. That's reality. There are NO guarantees.

The problem we have here is that the market cannot bear these high wages so now the union wants the government to step in and help so they can continue to have their guaranteed wages and benefits. The UAW is insistent that the problem is due solely to the economy and they won't take a cut! My company is also a bit strained. I HAPPILY told my manager that I'm on board no matter what. Pay cuts, benefit cuts....whatever, I'm there. Why? Because in hard times the worst day with a job is a lot better than the best day with no job. People need to quit acting like spoiled babies. Sometimes life is hard.

As far as cutting wages in other industries and comparing UNSKILLED auto workers to doctors, lawyers etc.... Get real! What comparison is there? Doctors and lawyers sometimes spend 100's of thousands of dollars on their educations they have to pay back! And don't think it's all a cakewalk for them either. My ex worked for a doctor for a time who worked 80 hours a week and struggled to make payroll many times. He had so much overhead he had to carry with his office space, insurance, clerical staff (big expense because of the cost of filing insurance paperwork/transcription etc...) nursing staff, supplies, computers, repairs etc.... He would have to wait sometimes 90 days to get paid. How many businesses could manage to wait 90 days for payment? HE struggled through 8 years of school so he could work 80 hours a week and be a pauper! What's fair about that?

The truth is that most other UNSKILLED jobs pay far less than what autoworkers are making. In Dallas, most unskilled labor, such as retail employees, office clerks, waitstaff, warehouse jobs, delivery drivers, etc.... make aprx $7-10 per hour. Most without benefits. The next level up, people with some experience in these areas, or who make it into management, will make around $10-$14. You will never ever see anyone in an unskilled job making $28 per hour, no matter how long they've been with the company. It just doesn't happen. So what makes automakers so special that they not only want that, but they deserve it?

Sorry but I just can't feel sorry for these spoiled brats who helped drag an entire industry to it's knees becuase they were unwilling to give up anything. Screw em' all I say. The execs in their private jets AND the workers too. Let them see how the rest of the world manages. Maybe they will learn some gratitute.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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CL, tell it to the Armies of Lawyers out there who still think they're worth $200 per hour.

Popeye, the only thing I tell lawyers is "Fuck off".  There's not a damn thing a lawyer can do for me that I can't do myself (and generally do better).

Lawyers are worth $200 per hour when people are willing to pay them $200 per hour.  No lawyer is worth a damn to me, so I pay them nothing.

Myself, I'm worth about $150 an hour because my clients pay me that much, and happily so.

In other words, these pay rates are justified because the market sustains them.

The notion of a "good wage" or a "living wage" for any specific job is a pipe dream from start to finish.  There is no such thing.  There is the wage a job commands in the marketplace and that's it.  If that wage doesn't quite get a person to the standard of living he or she desires, he or she needs to make some modifications--like finding a better job, going where the cost of living is cheaper, etc cetera.

If a man wants a guarantor to ensure he can earn enough to live on, he needs to look in the mirror.  The man in the mirror is the only one qualified to make that guarantee.

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So I guess you don't favor a "minimum wage" then?

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Should semi-skilled or unskilled American workers work for $5 a day?

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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Should semi-skilled or unskilled American workers work for $5 a day?

Yes, if that's what the market rate for their work is.

Less if the market will pay less.

More if the market will pay more.

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Interesting, so you are saying you could live with paying some American workers
less than $5 a day?

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People should just accept whatever?

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Why not just pay some people $1 a day, is that too much?

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I have an even better idea! Let's not pay any of these plebes, they're all cretins anyway and they'll drink away the money. No, let's give them food and housing in exchange for their slav... labour, a couple of solid decent pairs of shoes and hope they breed much workforce for the future.

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ORIGINAL: MzMia

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I have an even better idea! Let's not pay any of these plebes, they're all cretins anyway and they'll drink away the money. No, let's give them food and housing in exchange for their slav... labour, a couple of solid decent pairs of shoes and hope they breed much workforce for the future.

kittin, this is starting to sound close to slavery now.

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ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

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ORIGINAL: MzMia

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I have an even better idea! Let's not pay any of these plebes, they're all cretins anyway and they'll drink away the money. No, let's give them food and housing in exchange for their slav... labour, a couple of solid decent pairs of shoes and hope they breed much workforce for the future.

kittin, this is starting to sound close to slavery now.

I'm sure there are some "Capitalists" who would have no qualms about owning slaves, or re-instituting indentured servitude.

Having all these unsold vehicles is hardly the fault of the UAW. They are sitting there because no one can afford to buy them, even with incentives. People would be able to buy them if they made decent wages. How do people, working class people, earn decent wages. Collective bargaining. Unions. The problem isn't the UAW, it's that the owners, in collusion with right-wing politicians, have destroyed the middle class by busting unions, and passing "right to work" laws. America needs  MORE unionization, not less. 

"The Big 3, for instance, aren't failing because of UAW... they are failing in large part because most of the rest of America isn't unionized. If everyone had union contracts, better benefits, and larger paychecks then there would be plenty of people with enough money to buy all the cars sitting in the lots. Short-term profiteering by executives has led to long-term problems that can only be solved by a strong middle class to keep the economy moving." -Ellison

BTW, killer link about the history of labor, Mia. 

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ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

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ORIGINAL: MzMia

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I have an even better idea! Let's not pay any of these plebes, they're all cretins anyway and they'll drink away the money. No, let's give them food and housing in exchange for their slav... labour, a couple of solid decent pairs of shoes and hope they breed much workforce for the future.

kittin, this is starting to sound close to slavery now.

I'm sure there are some "Capitalists" who would have no qualms about owning slaves, or re-instituting indentured servitude.

Having all these unsold vehicles is hardly the fault of the UAW. They are sitting there because no one can afford to buy them, even with incentives. People would be able to buy them if they made decent wages. How do people, working class people, earn decent wages. Collective bargaining. Unions. The problem isn't the UAW, it's that the owners, in collusion with right-wing politicians, have destroyed the middle class by busting unions, and passing "right to work" laws. America needs  MORE unionization, not less. 

"The Big 3, for instance, aren't failing because of UAW... they are failing in large part because most of the rest of America isn't unionized. If everyone had union contracts, better benefits, and larger paychecks then there would be plenty of people with enough money to buy all the cars sitting in the lots. Short-term profiteering by executives has led to long-term problems that can only be solved by a strong middle class to keep the economy moving." -Ellison

BTW, killer link about the history of labor, Mia. 

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ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

"Every major automaker reported a year-over-year sales decline of more than 30 percent on Tuesday. The Detroit carmakers were among the worst hit, with GM's U.S. sales falling 41 percent and Chrysler LLC's dropping 47 percent.
Their overseas rivals posted abysmal results as well. Toyota's sales tumbled 34 percent, while Nissan's dropped 42 percent and Honda's fell 32 percent."
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=AP&date=20081202&id=9420320