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RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 10:14:59 AM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		Hmm well i read over it and it certainly makes sense to me

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RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 12:08:57 PM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: yourMissTress

Maybe you weren't paying attention as to where the kink is listed...but it's under BDSM interests. It's not listed with spirituality, it's not listed with the political beliefs, it's not touted as a WORLD VIEW. It's a KINK.

MissTress and others;
Obviously, what consenting adults do in their private lives and/or fantasy lives is fine.
After all, much (mostly role play stuff) that would fall under the purview of WIITWD would be dicey if not illegal outside of those parameters.
Certainly no need to single female supremacy, or worship, or what-have-you, as a kink, out.

The conversation the OP attempts to start only makes sense if what is discussed is the claim of female superiority as it is applied to the world beyond the borders of kink or fantasy.

It is not an unusual or rare argument, although maybe it was more common at a certain time, in certain places (like liberal college campuses), and now the pendulum has swung back towards the center for a time.

(in reply to yourMissTress)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 12:23:48 PM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MISTRESSKUMA

Inferior complex, maybe?

"Womb envy", perhaps?

The idea being that woman possesses the means to create life and spirit within her, but man must create a religion (spirit) outside of himself, which inevitably includes a male god who in turn creates all the people (gives life) in some sort of creation myth.

(in reply to MISTRESSKUMA)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 1:27:44 PM   
MarcEsadrian


Posts: 852
Joined: 8/24/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Hmm well i read over it and it certainly makes sense to me

However we can be as nhialistic as we want but in actual fact some things are wrong.



I would invite you to read over what you replied to as well.

There is nothing "wrong" with believing in or living out sex supremacy. Stating one's opposition to the idea of Female Supremacy isn't wrong either, but a drawn out denunciation of Female Supremacy without giving equal negative attention to its obvious counterpoint is intellectually incomplete, in the very least. That is, if one wishes to be seen as unbiased.

I would say it's a tough point one must defend when stating flatly that the way some people choose to live or think is "wrong" or "a concept that just doesn't work".

One would think individuals who see themselves as inclined toward BDSM, wink-and-nod or not, would understand that, given how at odds it still is with popular morality and the law. I would also point out there are no doubt many among us who would own a person in a very "real, incontrovertible sense". Perhaps we should address that evil with the same psuedo-impartial fervor? While we're at it, let's extend the argument to how hitting someone and inflicting pain in general—even if consensual—is, from a legal and moral standpoint throughout much of the world, wrong.

(in reply to colouredin)
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RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 2:43:07 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Yeah you are probably correct, as a lack of a sense of humor does the same for me. Though I have always felt that what someone is perceived via internet postings, is not a measure of what the real person is. Perceptions are funny like that, but I also realize that once someone determines what truth is, then it rarely can be changed.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

I'm quite sure our meeting would go downhill even faster than the emails. Nothing drives me away faster than an unwarranted sense of self importance. 


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RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 2:44:39 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		What exactly does this have to do with directing misguided, chest thumping, supposed Gorean to that section?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

*snort* Great idea in theory, until  you get the posters from the Gor forum cmailing you suggesting that "once you find a man willing to take the time to master you I'm sure you'll find the kitchen and countless other aversions quite satisfying." 


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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 2:49:25 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Sorry Tammy, in education we have always used radical as an umbrella term, didnt mean to cause offence, ill remember the difference in future :)


I'm just picky here cause the modern feminist movement is one of the things I've studied in history outside of my major field of ancient history.

So many different types of any social movement but feminism now has at least a dozen subdivisions these days.

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RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 2:56:39 PM   
MommyFiercest


Posts: 27
Joined: 12/5/2008
Status: offline 		Interested in the latest new subdivision of feminism? Check out Julia Serano's Book "The Whipping Girl: A Transexual Woman On The Scapegoating Of Femininity". TransFeminism is the shit!

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RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 3:09:31 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Though I have always felt that what someone is perceived via internet postings, is not a measure of what the real person is. 

Too true, and a point which I was recently part of illustrating.

I'm tempted to ask,"What's all the fuss about?"  But then I suppose the "fuss" is about identity.  Like so many other things, for some the concept of female supremacy is part of their self image.  When that idea is threatened, they defend it with all the passion their self esteem can muster.  Others, who's identities are just as threatened by the idea of it, defend their POV with equal passion... the usual result being much heated debate. 

I stated before that my position on the matter is that any generalized belief of superiority or supremacy is hogwash.  If an individual or group wants to claim superiority, prove it.  But this too will never be a popular view I suspect for the simple reason that it requires action.  One cannot lazily log online and claim it, nor sit in a comfy armchair and command it.... one must literally, "put up or shut up."  Too many cannot, or at least fear they cannot, "put up" and don't want to shut up either.  So on they go trying to achieve authority and respect via titles and ideologies, rather than through actions and achievements.

So, I suspect we will see these sorts of arguments go on and on never reaching a conclusion and never resolving anything.  At most, perhaps some will benefit from them by some gained insight or wisdom... but I think that is probably the most to be hoped for.

Just my thoughts on the matter, YMMV

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 3:13:17 PM   
Aszhrae


Posts: 1030
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline 		Girl was going to post something.
However after reading it over it several times. Girl seen how spiteful, hateful, intolerant,  perhaps still a little militant in an anti-male sort of way.
It is men, nasty men that have had in making me feel the way girl does towards them.
Girl does have to remember, in the years past. There have been some men girl could call equals. For every one male girl has met that could be considered my equal, there is 50 that are gross, indecent, egotistical, arrogant and genuinely pigs. Then of course there is the whole Gorean philosophy. Novels where a dog has more rights than a woman, that a woman's only place is to serve a man. Can you honestly tell me that the positions are favorable to the woman? No they're not. Positions suit the male ego.
Before getting carried away and going off in a rant that would offend a great many people from both sides.
Girl believes in matriarchal society for the same reason that the planet is called Mother Earth. Men only ever want to fight, to claim and to conquer. Its not about equality (unless its by their rules), its about subordination. King of the hill, crown upon the throne and all that nonsense.
When men destroy something, they just shrug, say 'oops' and walk away.
Look at the world in the state that it is currently in and think, if Female Supremacy such a bad thing? The male supremacy seems to be hell bent on destroying the planet to the last man standing.


< Message edited by Aszhrae -- 12/16/2008 3:40:52 PM >

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RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 4:12:44 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		You need to do a bit more reading then. Free Women served many roles in Gorean society, not to mention some were in actual leadership roles.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aszhrae
Then of course there is the whole Gorean philosophy. Novels where a dog has more rights than a woman, that a woman's only place is to serve a man. Can you honestly tell me that the positions are favorable to the woman? No they're not. Positions suit the male ego.


< Message edited by OrionTheWolf -- 12/16/2008 4:13:08 PM >

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RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 4:25:23 PM   
Aszhrae


Posts: 1030
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline 		not speaking about the Free Women

girl is thinking about the kajira that are all young to begin with

free woman are all older, guess because the men only perceive females as being useful when they are young

much like today's society with most dom/mes wanting young sub/slaves

in gorean society, girl would be perceived as a free woman, being too old to be a viable young kajira which is what every gorean male wants

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RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 5:39:02 PM   
squirrelfury


Posts: 44
Joined: 8/20/2004
From: Houston, Texas
Status: offline 		From what I recall though, Sir, weren't Free Women only free up until the point where some enterprising bastard decided to take 'em?  I don't mean in the walking-up-to-you-randomly-and-saying-"Hey, guess what, you're mine!" sort of way, but from what I remember of the first 12 novels (as far as I read), "free" applied to women always seemed to follow with the unspoken caveat "until some forceful guy exerts a minimal amount of effort to get you into slave silks."

Granted, it's been a few years since I picked up one of the books, so time may have skewed both memory and perception.

And, to support Aszhrae's point, saying "It's not like we enslave every woman!" isn't really a defensible position.  That may not have been the intent of your response, Sir, but it's very easy to misinterpret it as such. *smiles wryly*  I know those weren't your exact words, but it could be said that they may be an accurate paraphrasing of the perception of them.

(re-edit for spelling)

< Message edited by squirrelfury -- 12/16/2008 5:44:22 PM >

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I wept for I had no shoes, then I met the bastard who took them. Who's crying *now*, fetish-boy?

From a word to a word I was led to a word, from a deed to another deed.

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RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 6:31:10 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		I haven’t read many of the responses due to time constraints, so If I cover anything already bespoken, I only ask your forbearance.  Coming from my background which was in effect a traditional Victorian/European aristocratic family, and with my love for and sojourn for nigh on ten years, the Gorean lifestyle which as most will know states male supremacy, and my own natural inclination which is along with the Victorian Lifestyle I live, I will always have a male dominated home and domain. However, I have as many friends who have female Dominant home or domains too.   In one aspect we, at least in Western culture, all carve out our own little kingdoms which we rule as best we can and according to our inclination. Be it a rented room, an apartment, a suburban home, farm or palatial mansion. We will often tend to frequent places and mingle with groups who have similar beliefs or ways of looking at things. As such we build a place in our minds which in many cases we are able to share with like minded folk. There is nothing wrong with this and oft is a form of security net for when things get tough in a largely uncaring world.
  Problems occur when people make universal declarations and try to enforce them on other about what is best according to their views. Fanatics of any ilk are not just a pest but are potentially dangerous as history has shown time and time again. My way of dealing with so many diverse ideals is in the most part to agree to disagree and having done this to refuse to become involved in discourse designed to sway my personal ideals or beliefs. With those who do differ but who remain friends and associates, it becomes a matter of good manners. I visit your place, courtesy dictates I will, whilst on your property be bound to a degree by your rules (providing they do not demean me). Similarly if you visit me, you are bound by my rules in a similar manner. If I respect the feelings and beliefs of others I can reasonably expect them to respect mine. If they don’t then the visit is terminated and it would be a long time afore they will be welcomed into my abode.
  All in all, it is good to be different and it is good to be able to discuss differences. It is never good to attempt to force your differences onto others or announce that, in effect, your way is the only way.

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RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 6:50:17 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		This is incorrect as well. I again suggest you read a bit more. kajira may have always been young, but so were many Free Women. Your guess is also incorrect, as Free Women were the Mothers of children, Sisters of Brothers, and Daughters of Fathers. As many do, you cannot see past the slavery portion, which is itself sarcastic and metaphorical. Beauty in all of it's forms, is highly prized by most Goreans. If a female's nature is not that of a slave, then to force her to go against her nature is also to go against Gorean Philosophy. In the fictional society created in the series less than 5% of the female population were slaves, so if those big barbaric Men wanted only slaves, why didn't they enslave more women? If you have any questions just ask me, or there are other Goreans that are more than happy to dispel the inaccurate description many internet Goreans pose.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aszhrae

not speaking about the Free Women

girl is thinking about the kajira that are all young to begin with

free woman are all older, guess because the men only perceive females as being useful when they are young

much like today's society with most dom/mes wanting young sub/slaves

in gorean society, girl would be perceived as a free woman, being too old to be a viable young kajira which is what every gorean male wants



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 6:58:26 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: squirrelfury

From what I recall though, Sir, weren't Free Women only free up until the point where some enterprising bastard decided to take 'em?  I don't mean in the walking-up-to-you-randomly-and-saying-"Hey, guess what, you're mine!" sort of way, but from what I remember of the first 12 novels (as far as I read), "free" applied to women always seemed to follow with the unspoken caveat "until some forceful guy exerts a minimal amount of effort to get you into slave silks."


Not unless the Free Woman committed a crime, or if it was forceful taking then the person doing the taking was not from the same City-State. Men of a particular City-State would defend the Free Women of that City-State or area, with their lives. In the more uncivilized areas the bare minimum was the Free Woman's family that would defend her.

quote:


Granted, it's been a few years since I picked up one of the books, so time may have skewed both memory and perception.


There are now 27 books, and another due to be released. I would say it was the later 15 that really drew more things together. Such as a saying in one book is that all Free Women secretly fear the Man that will cause them to fall to their knees, and in another that says that within every kajira there is a Free Woman. It takes a study of this to understand, that throughout the series Norman describes no single way that a female is, but the many facets that she can be.

quote:


And, to support Aszhrae's point, saying "It's not like we enslave every woman!" isn't really a defensible position.  That may not have been the intent of your response, Sir, but it's very easy to misinterpret it as such. *smiles wryly*  I know those weren't your exact words, but it could be said that they may be an accurate paraphrasing of the perception of them.

(re-edit for spelling)


Then further questions should be asked. As practiced by Living Goreans, slavery is an inter-personal relationship. Many of the relationships in the books give some insight into this. It requires excellent mastery, to enslave a female, and that has nothing to do with how physically strong someone is. In the series, which is fictional, the society was much different than our and everything of value had to be defended, even females.

The mistake occurs when some try and pull literal things from the series, and apply it to our lives. The weapons on the fictional planet of Gor may have been swords, spears and bows, but the weapons to master her in life, is leadership, responsibility, and integrity.

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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 7:04:56 PM   
squirrelfury


Posts: 44
Joined: 8/20/2004
From: Houston, Texas
Status: offline 		Ahhhh, gotcha Sir.  I appreciate your insights into Gor as practiced properly. *smiles*

_____________________________

~Squirrel~
I wept for I had no shoes, then I met the bastard who took them. Who's crying *now*, fetish-boy?

From a word to a word I was led to a word, from a deed to another deed.

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 7:05:35 PM   
Aszhrae


Posts: 1030
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline 		Being Gorean is your choice in lifestyle, that is how you choose to live.
Girl will agree with 'IronBear'
You have your beliefs and girl has hers.
Girl does not believe in the Gorean philosophy that women are subordinate.
As with 'squirrelfury's' point, a free woman is only free until a male takes her and puts her in slave silks.
Try as you might, you can not sway me to believe that Gorean philosophy is the best way.

Girl has a friend that is Kajira, her master treats all women as potential kajira, it is for that very reason to be gorean slave is not how women should be treated. However, such a choice is not up to me, it is of course their want or need that has women accept it for themselves.
Stop trying to convince me otherwise.
Girl has the Gor novels because they were given to me in pdf format.
Think girl will read them? No, girl considers them poison.

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 7:06:14 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

I would invite you to read over what you replied to as well.

There is nothing "wrong" with believing in or living out sex supremacy. Stating one's opposition to the idea of Female Supremacy isn't wrong either, but a drawn out denunciation of Female Supremacy without giving equal negative attention to its obvious counterpoint is intellectually incomplete, in the very least. That is, if one wishes to be seen as unbiased.

I would say it's a tough point one must defend when stating flatly that the way some people choose to live or think is "wrong" or "a concept that just doesn't work".

One would think individuals who see themselves as inclined toward BDSM, wink-and-nod or not, would understand that, given how at odds it still is with popular morality and the law. I would also point out there are no doubt many among us who would own a person in a very "real, incontrovertible sense". Perhaps we should address that evil with the same psuedo-impartial fervor? While we're at it, let's extend the argument to how hitting someone and inflicting pain in general—even if consensual—is, from a legal and moral standpoint throughout much of the world, wrong.


Hi Marc,

While you write some thoughtful replies on the topic, and while normally I say to each his/her own and move on, I can't help but think when people are directly and negatively affected by the belief of another, it is very easy and even natural to form biases against that belief.

While I believe some folks incorporate supremacy of various natures into their relationships, it is my belief that those who truly believe in the supremacy of (sex, race, creed, etc.) are severely misguided.  Do you disagree?

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Female Supremacy: A Manifesto - 12/16/2008 7:29:19 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aszhrae

Being Gorean is your choice in lifestyle, that is how you choose to live.
Girl will agree with 'IronBear'
You have your beliefs and girl has hers.
Girl does not believe in the Gorean philosophy that women are subordinate.
As with 'squirrelfury's' point, a free woman is only free until a male takes her and puts her in slave silks.
Try as you might, you can not sway me to believe that Gorean philosophy is the best way.


Where have I tried to sway you that Gorean Philosophy is the best way? I only commented on an inaccurate statement that you made, and then followed up to correct more inaccuracies. Gorean Philosophy is not for everyone. Even in our world, it is strength that defends everyone's rights, when the civility of law fails.

quote:


Girl has a friend that is Kajira, her master treats all women as potential kajira, it is for that very reason to be gorean slave is not how women should be treated. However, such a choice is not up to me, it is of course their want or need that has women accept it for themselves.


Many Goreans do that, but their beliefs are personal and not supported by Gorean Philosophy, that is what I have been trying to point out.

quote:


Stop trying to convince me otherwise.
Girl has the Gor novels because they were given to me in pdf format.
Think girl will read them? No, girl considers them poison.



So you base your opinion from ignorance, because you refuse to read them you have no firsthand knowledge of what is there. They are poison, because they are stolen intellectual property, unless you bought the e-books. Not to mention much of the bootleg copies floating around have been rewritten by those so called Goreans.

Never mistake someone correcting inaccurate information, for trying to convince you of something.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Aszhrae)
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