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Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 7:19:21 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		I am surprised no one has started a thread on this topic.
So, here we go.
 
Obama has expanded his plans for his economic stimulus goals.
PE Obama wants to create at least 2.5 million jobs, rebuild roads and crumbling
bridges, modernize schools,  and assist doctors and hospitals in computerizing
records, increase energy and weatherizing projects, and also expand unemployemnt and food stamp benefits.
 
I have heard this stimulus plan to cost between 800 billion to even 1 trillion.
To me, it is worth every penny to keep America from sinking into a looming Depression.
What are your thoughts on PE stimulus plan?

 Obama Expands Stimulus Goals - washingtonpost.com

< Message edited by MzMia -- 12/22/2008 7:32:46 PM >

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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 7:26:22 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		        We are in a nasty financial mess because of excessive credit.  Obviously, the best way out of such a hole is to borrow a lot more, and spend that, too.

      

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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 7:28:20 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

PE Obama wants to create at least 2.5 million jobs, rebuild roads and crumbling
bridges, modernize schools, and assist doctors and hospitals in computerizing
records, energy and weatherizing projects, and also expand unemployemnt and food stamp
benefits.

  • Road/Bridge repair--Good idea.  President Pothole gets this one right.
  • Modernize schools--whatever the fuck that means, which makes this a money pit (from President Pothole to President Sinkhole).  Either that or it's doublespeak for pork.
  • Assist Doctors and Hospitals in computerizing records--slight problem here: doctors don't WANT computerized records (have had a number of them as clients over the years....they love the whizbang diagnostic stuff, but electronic medical records actually offend a great majority of them).  Every state has had projects to do this, federal laws have been revised to allow hospitals to buy the expensive software and GIVE it to the docs, and EMR implementations still move slower than Congress.
  • "Energy projects" -- aka, "pork".  Bad idea.
  • "Weatherizing projects" -- aka "more pork."
  • Expand unemployment and food stamp programs -- adding to the welfare state, but this is ultimately a small potatoes next to the rest of the money-burning, so sure, why not?


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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 7:43:34 PM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

       We are in a nasty financial mess because of excessive credit.  Obviously, the best way out of such a hole is to borrow a lot more, and spend that, too.

     


Well Rich, we are already about 350 billion in {but who is counting}?
It stands to reason, we are going to have to pay $$$$ to keep our country
from sliding into a Depression.

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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 8:01:40 PM   
rexrgisformidoni


Posts: 578
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Status: offline 		better make more paper and ink then. the government will just shit more money out of thin air at the command of the mighty ones.

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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 8:02:35 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Well Rich, we are already about 350 billion in {but who is counting}?
It stands to reason, we are going to have to pay $$$$ to keep our country
from sliding into a Depression.

First and most important lesson in finance:  sunk costs are irrecoverable.  Once money is spent, it's gone.  So the fact that we've tossed $350Billion on the fire is no justification to throw any more money on the same fire.

Further, it does NOT "stand to reason."  FDR used that line of reasoning, and extended the Depression by a good 5 years, and would have extended it longer had Adolf and Tojo not bailed him out by starting WWII.  If government really wanted to stimulate the economy, declare a tax holiday for 2009--the Gohmert plan (HR7309) only calls for two months, but if we're at Dear Leader's level of largesse, that would cover the entire year).  The additional funds left in the hands of private citizens and businesses would preserve existing jobs, increase demand, free up credit--all without the bloat and bureacracy attendant upon government spending.


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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 8:05:46 PM   
MzMia


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Status: offline 		CL, I am listening to you.
What about the 2-3 million people that have lost their jobs
in the last few months?
Not to mention all the people already on unemployment, soon to run out of
benefits?
What should we do about them?

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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 8:18:11 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

CL, I am listening to you.
What about the 2-3 million people that have lost their jobs
in the last few months?
Not to mention all the people already on unemployment, soon to run out of
benefits?
What should we do about them?

Well, if government weren't so fucking greedy, if government would consent to leave some tax dollars on the table in hard times, then those 2-3 million people would have a shot at getting a job, now wouldn't they?

Payroll taxes burden the direct cost of an employee by roughly 15-20%.  Income and social security withholding sap 10-15% of a person's paycheck.

How much stimulus do you think would happen if those dollars were left in the hands of businesses and wage earners?  Even if every dollar of uncollected tax went to pay down debt, the expansion of liquidity alone would stave off a depression, and shorten the recession (not to mention that paying off debt the old fashion way--by the debtor--would very quickly revive most if not all of the moribund financial institutions whose balance sheets are loaded with "toxic" debt that right now won't be repaid).

I've been laid off.  I've been flat busted broke.  It's no fun.  Getting a job was (and always has been) the fix.

The best way the government can create jobs is to leave more money in the private sector, not soak it up in taxes.


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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 8:46:33 PM   
trealeon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
Well, if government weren't so fucking greedy, if government would consent to leave some tax dollars on the table in hard times, then those 2-3 million people would have a shot at getting a job, now wouldn't they?

Payroll taxes burden the direct cost of an employee by roughly 15-20%.  Income and social security withholding sap 10-15% of a person's paycheck.

How much stimulus do you think would happen if those dollars were left in the hands of businesses and wage earners?  Even if every dollar of uncollected tax went to pay down debt, the expansion of liquidity alone would stave off a depression, and shorten the recession (not to mention that paying off debt the old fashion way--by the debtor--would very quickly revive most if not all of the moribund financial institutions whose balance sheets are loaded with "toxic" debt that right now won't be repaid).

I've been laid off.  I've been flat busted broke.  It's no fun.  Getting a job was (and always has been) the fix.

The best way the government can create jobs is to leave more money in the private sector, not soak it up in taxes.



I seriously like any idea that involves leaving money in my hand instead of handing out a "stimulus'. I would make almost twice as much as I do now if I had no taxes, and I would use that money to pay down my debt. If I had a year free of taxes I'd be in much better shape.

However, I do have one (completely non-sarcastic) question. How would the government run for that year without our taxes?

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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 8:51:13 PM   
rexrgisformidoni


Posts: 578
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Status: offline 		the government would run the on hopes and dreams of the people! yeah right.

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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 9:05:36 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

How would the government run for that year without our taxes?

Deficit spending, same as it is now.

Consider:  Americans will pay $1.2 trillion in taxes in 2008.  The "stimulus" package is essentially a year's worth of tax revenue of additional spending, on top of existing spending.  This stimulus package is $1 trillion of debt added to the federal debt burden.  Tax revenues already aren't going to cover it (government spending is already at huge deficits), thus shifting the question from how to fund a stimulus to how best to utilize the requisite debt load.

Which is the better stimulus?  $1 trillion of government "stimulus", or $1 trillion left in the hands of individual businesses and taxpayers, to save, invest, or spend as they individually deem appropriate?

Incidentally, the Gohmert tax holiday bill, HR7309, is currently in committee.  20 Congressmen have signed on as co-sponsors.  I've written my congressman repeatedly urging support for the bill.  Have you written yours?

https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml

(edited to put a working link in instead)


< Message edited by celticlord2112 -- 12/22/2008 9:53:35 PM >

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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 9:07:12 PM   
awmslave


Posts: 599
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline 		For me Obama infrastrucure plan is not clear for several reasons:
1. Where the money comes from?
2. It employes only very narrow category of people (mostly illegal immigrants perhaps).
3. It does not create long-term jobs.
4. It does not change the wrong ideological path US economy has taken but creates just a very expensive side project.
Compare this on individual basis: if you are out of work would you borrow money and start extensive home improvment project.
So, in my opinion, the idea makes no sense. There is no need to spend this money (that does not exist) at this time. Government has many tools to guide the economy: lower taxes, tarriffs for imports, improving business climate in many ways, relieve some healthcare burden from businesses etc....

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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 9:17:24 PM   
blacksword404


Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I am surprised no one has started a thread on this topic.
So, here we go.
 
Obama has expanded his plans for his economic stimulus goals.
PE Obama wants to create at least 2.5 million jobs, rebuild roads and crumbling
bridges, modernize schools,  and assist doctors and hospitals in computerizing
records, increase energy and weatherizing projects, and also expand unemployemnt and food stamp benefits.
 
I have heard this stimulus plan to cost between 800 billion to even 1 trillion.
To me, it is worth every penny to keep America from sinking into a looming Depression.
What are your thoughts on PE stimulus plan?

 Obama Expands Stimulus Goals - washingtonpost.com


Collapse.

They keep trying to jumpstart the economy so we can do business as usual. No lesson learned. We can not continue to do business as usual.

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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 9:20:34 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

1. Where the money comes from?

"Quantitative easing" (government speak for the printing presses at the Bureau of Engraving--the money's conjured up out of thin air)

quote:

2. It employes only very narrow category of people (mostly illegal immigrants perhaps).

It would be an exceedingly perverse irony if this turned out to be the case.  It is unlikely, however.  What the stimulus package does not address is whether or not the unemployed have the requisite skills for the make-work jobs.  Granted, not much skill is required to lean on a shovel at a road construction site, but roughly one in five road construction workers actually has to do something worthwhile, such as run a grader or other piece of earth-moving equipment--and that takes training.  The UAW castoffs are not going to be getting the road repair jobs.

quote:

3. It does not create long-term jobs.

EXACTLY.  Government "stimulus" is make work.  FDR's Treasury Secretary, Henry Morgenthau, reached the same conclusion in May, 1939:
quote:

"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and if I am wrong ... somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises ... I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started ... And an enormous debt to boot!"


quote:

4. It does not change the wrong ideological path US economy has taken but creates just a very expensive side project.

Also true.  Government largesse is a detour that pays little heed to the demands and desires of buyers and sellers--the ultimate source of all economic activity (including permanent jobs).


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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 9:32:54 PM   
Lordandmaster


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My view of the whole plan is that we might get some bridges out of it--more than we can say for the $700 billion that went to bail out the banks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112


  • "Energy projects" -- aka, "pork".  Bad idea.

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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 9:42:08 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

My view of the whole plan is that we might get some bridges out of it--more than we can say for the $700 billion that went to bail out the banks.

The roads and bridges part is a good idea.  The rest is another $700 billion down the drain.


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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 9:48:50 PM   
TheUtopian


Posts: 259
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I am surprised no one has started a thread on this topic.
So, here we go.
 
Obama has expanded his plans for his economic stimulus goals.
PE Obama wants to create at least 2.5 million jobs, rebuild roads and crumbling
bridges, modernize schools,  and assist doctors and hospitals in computerizing
records, increase energy and weatherizing projects, and also expand unemployemnt and food stamp benefits.
 
I have heard this stimulus plan to cost between 800 billion to even 1 trillion.
To me, it is worth every penny to keep America from sinking into a looming Depression.
What are your thoughts on PE stimulus plan?

 Obama Expands Stimulus Goals - washingtonpost.com


My thoughts are simple :  Obama needs bag Geitner as his treasury secretary and bring in 50 cent to replace him. Hell....that boy knows more about monetary stimulus than any member of Federal Reserve board. Besides....if your gonna appoint a gangster to your cabinet, might as well appoint a real one







- R

< Message edited by TheUtopian -- 12/22/2008 9:50:57 PM >

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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 10:34:48 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
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Status: offline 		I don't believe investment in energy is money down the drain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

The rest is another $700 billion down the drain.

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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 10:47:38 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		Depends on how it's invested.  There are a lot of erstwhile "investments" that ultimately are just money down the drain.

Investements in alternative energy sources have been a popular tax shelter for decades--and yet none of these "investments" have yielded much in the way of an energy infrastructure less dependent on oil.

Yes, I'm being cynical, but billions thrown at ill-defined "energy projects" sounds like an open invite to porkbarrel spending.  How does that sort of waste help anybody?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I don't believe investment in energy is money down the drain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

The rest is another $700 billion down the drain.



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RE: Thoughts on Obama's possible 1 trillion stimulus plan? - 12/22/2008 11:17:39 PM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
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Status: offline 		Obama's plan is not "change" but a retread of FDR's "New Deal".  FDR's program succeeded in buying votes but it had no impact on the economy, and unemployment was still close to 20% in the late 30's and never went below 14% from 1932.  Government does not create "jobs"...government creates "work" and "waste"....private, profit motivated capitalism creates jobs that last, that go beyond a "project"!   We could slip into depression and Obama, Pelosi, and the rest of the "Green Party"....are bent on saving the planet not our way of life, it seems to me.  If government would lower the corporate tax rate, give depreciation incentives to industry, and stop mandating fiscally irresponsible and unprofitable , anti-competitive environmentat requirments, industry, particularly the auto industry, would do a heck of a lot better.  This is the government that failed in the War on Drugs, in the War on Poverty, and just about every war supposedly to help the average tax payer...and now the democrat party wants to control the spending of trillions of dollars for our benefit.  I don't think so!   Obama is idealistic which is great for a young man to be..and as it should be...but he is very inexperienced and naieve when it comes to understanding how the real world that he has never experienced personally works in business. 
Obama wants to help the working guy and yet he supports taking away the privacy of a vote by a worker for or against a union shop...not the American way, in my view.  This is not "change" but "payback" for union support of his candidacy.

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