RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 7:27:53 PM)

I would think it was obvious that the female didn't dear.  I mean, I know there's a kink for everything, but it would be a hard push to find someone who found dish breaking over a bad meal a hot form of play.  The phone would just upset most people.

Unless there's some new fork and phone trend happening out there, I'm thinking she didn't care for it.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 7:33:56 PM)

I really thought you would have had more than this.  You've gone from "It's very well documented that abusive types start with a pattern of breaking things, and then moving up to harming people" to a Wikipedia article saying "indirect physical violence may include destruction of objects."  Really, what does the word "may" mean in that sentence?  "May" means "may also not."  That's the definition of "may."

In any case, it HARDLY supports your claim that abusers start breaking things before moving on to harming people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Perhaps you prefer this then, taken from Wikipedia:

Forms of abuse Domestic violence can take the form of physical violence, including direct physical violence ranging from unwanted physical contact to rape and murder. Indirect physical violence may include destruction of objects, striking or throwing objects near the victim, or harm to pets. In addition to physical violence, spousal abuse often includes mental or emotional abuse, including verbal threats of physical violence to the victim, the self, or others including children, ranging from explicit, detailed and impending to implicit and vague as to both content and time frame, and verbal violence, including threats, insults, put-downs, and attacks. Nonverbal threats may include gestures, facial expressions, and body postures. Psychological abuse may also involve economic and/or social control, such as controlling the victim's money and other economic resources, preventing the victim from seeing friends and relatives, actively sabotaging the victim's social relationships, and isolating the victim from social contacts.




LadyPact -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 7:37:08 PM)

Ok, so if there's no problem, why is the OP heading to anger management class?




Lordandmaster -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 7:39:07 PM)

I wish you COULD access your research, because I'd like to see something more substantial than Wiki articles.  If all this stuff is really so "well documented," it shouldn't be that hard to find some documentation, should it?

You know what abusers do?  They abuse people.  If someone breaks an inanimate object, even if it's in a partner's presence, it doesn't necessarily mean that he's trying to intimidate people or that he's a budding abuser.  It means he's enraged and frustrated and is looking for an INANIMATE OBJECT to take it out on.  Or next we're going to say that squeezing a stress ball or punching a punching bag is a sign of latent abusive tendencies?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Some of you would be glad I can't access many years of research I have into domestic abuse or abusive patterns or they would be here... pages and pages and pages.  It is a well documented fact that one thing leads to another and it isn't far fetched to believe that someone who slams things on the table over what they consider a poor excuse for a meal and yells, will one day grab, strike or push.  Call a shelter, google.. I don't care... but these are facts of abuse and how it moves from easily offended/angered and from yelling to intimidating through their anger which is abuse and then one day... if all this isn't stopped and is accepted by the partner... it could escalate and most often does.  With some pretty high percentage rates of said escalation.




GreedyTop -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 7:40:24 PM)

As a woman who has survived 2 abusive relationships, I can say that the violence did start out with inanimate objects (full-length mirror in the bathroom, various knick-knacks, stuffed animals, etc).  It moved from those to punching holes in the wall, in one guys case.  Then I became the punching bag.  Guess they enjoyed the sounds of flesh meeting flesh accompanied by screams and crying more than the sounds of crashes, breaking glass, etc.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 7:41:51 PM)

I have no idea.  I'm not the OP, and maybe he really does need anger-management classes.  But if he does, it would have to be because there are other, more troubling, aspects of his behavior than just breaking inanimate objects when he's frustrated.

Deep down, he knows himself better than anyone else does.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Ok, so if there's no problem, why is the OP heading to anger management class?




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 7:44:01 PM)

My anger management guy never actually laid a hand on me, though there were more than a few times when I was prepared to defend myself.  Looking back on some episodes, and wondering why I didn't handle a situation differently, I remembered, Oh, he had a GUN in his luggage... 

Must be nice to be a guy, I reckon.  They stick up for each other pretty well!




beargonewild -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 7:44:34 PM)

~FR~

From reading through this entire topic and the OP's posts, what I am seeing is the OP having a a huge problem with anger management. Granted that no physical abuse was dealt to the fiancee though the displays of anger was redirected at the smashing of the plate of food and other incidents. This would be a major concern to anyone and will have one wondering when the hand or fist will be striking me next? That possibility will always be sitting in the back of one's mind., and I feel it is a legitimate cause for concern.
   I agree that the fiancee leaving on the manner which she don't wasn't the most adult way yet I can't help but wonder if she felt this was the only option that was safely viable without risking the potential for physical harm to her person. I know if I had a partner who displayed anger in much the same manner, I guarantee that my instinct for personal safety would override any logical thought. This I speak from past experience of being on the receiving end of physical and sexual abuse.
   My thoughts to the OP's situation and the advice he seeks is to do whatever it takes to abide by her wishes of no contact. Yes it may be unfair to wait 1 month, 6 months or 45 years. The point is she needs time to deal with all the chaotic emotions she is trying to work through to feel safe again. Her sending a text message to wish a happy holiday is not consent to the OP that all is well and "let's get back together." To continue calling and leaving messages most likely will have the opposite effect by driving her further and further away. The ball is still in her court and the OP needs to honor and respect her wishes even if he fels they are unfair.

Abuse shows itself in varying degrees and in various forms, yet it still is abuse.




Lockit -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 7:46:42 PM)

Lordandmaster... I added three links to my post.  There are thousands of web sites out there...  Whether I can phrase it in a way that is acceptable or not... I really cannot care after a week of plumbing issues and Christmas... so... we may all just have to agree to disagree unless you wish to dispute what we claim and prove your stand.  I know mine.

I do hope this is all in good healthy debate...




Lockit -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 7:51:19 PM)

When someone is dealing with another who has anger issues... it is advised by most shelters and counslers to leave safely... then let them know.  It is a common practice.. get out safe is the goal.  She even said she left without saying something because she was afraid of his anger, which he admits having.  It is a common practice to prepare to leave... stay silent... act normally and then run for the hills.

As for the furniture... it might have been her's... could have been shared... she didn't clean the place out and left with half.  A real taking advantage bitch would have taken it all! lol




Lordandmaster -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 7:55:03 PM)

I looked at your first site and didn't see a thing about destroying inanimate objects.

I do think the people who are saying that abusers begin by destroying inaminate objects before moving on to harming humans are obliged to show SOME documentation (and "I know X whose abusive spouse used to break things" isn't documentation--neither, for that matter, is "My abusive spouse used to break things").  I mean, I'm sorry if you don't feel like looking for something more substantial than a pop website during your hectic Christmas week, but you and others on here have made a claim with some serious consequences.  And if it's wrong, as I suspect, then it goes into the category of misinformation that's worse than no information at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Lordandmaster... I added three links to my post.  There are thousands of web sites out there...  Whether I can phrase it in a way that is acceptable or not... I really cannot care after a week of plumbing issues and Christmas... so... we may all just have to agree to disagree unless you wish to dispute what we claim and prove your stand.  I know mine.

I do hope this is all in good healthy debate...




Lockit -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 7:59:44 PM)

The first link does indeed talk about dystroying property as a sign of abuse and escalation... you can read it again...I can't read it for you.  Plus there are two other links.  I have provided proof.




GoodFeathers -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 8:07:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

As a woman who has survived 2 abusive relationships, I can say that the violence did start out with inanimate objects (full-length mirror in the bathroom, various knick-knacks, stuffed animals, etc).  It moved from those to punching holes in the wall, in one guys case.  Then I became the punching bag.  Guess they enjoyed the sounds of flesh meeting flesh accompanied by screams and crying more than the sounds of crashes, breaking glass, etc.


I have to agree with Greedy here.  Domestic violence and abuse is an escalation issue.  It starts with the little things.  It doesn't take long for the little things to stop being little and stop being things.  I've been in that kind of situation and not sticking around was one of the best decisions I ever made...I survived it.  My aunt didn't survive hers--it started with the little things there too, then moved on to her being beaten on a nightly basis.  They divorced.  She was stalked by her ex husband.  He called all the time.  He followed her.  She moved and he followed her there too.  Today, Christmas f-ing day, is the 24th anniversary of the day her ex husband killed her in front of their four sons.  Merry Christmas. 

*hugs to greedy*




Lordandmaster -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 8:10:10 PM)

Destroying WHOSE property?  If someone destroys YOUR property, yes, it's abusive--and also criminal.  If he destroys HIS OWN property, it doesn't amount to much more than "behavior I'd rather not witness."

Anyway, look, I don't consider your websites "proof," and I don't think you're committed to trying to convince me (from your tone, I infer that you think I'm just wrong and annoying), so let's drop this.  But I think it's very dangerous to be mistaken when identifying patterns of behavior as characteristic of abusers because you're very likely to get false positives AND false negatives.  (Those mean: You're bound to suspect someone wrongly of being an abuser if he displays the pattern in question, AND you're bound to miss someone who really is an abuser if he doesn't display the pattern in question.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

The first link does indeed talk about dystroying property as a sign of abuse and escalation... you can read it again...I can't read it for you.  Plus there are two other links.  I have provided proof.




Lockit -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 8:10:11 PM)

I am so sorry GoodFeathers.

It is also a fact that a victim of domestic abuse is in more danger when or after she/he leaves. 




LadyPact -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 8:11:36 PM)

I would follow to ask, where exactly do you think abusive behavior begins?  With trips to the ER?  Abusive is progressive.  It doesn't start out with broken ribs.

Whether anyone thinks it was a potentially abusive situation or not really doesn't matter much.  Something was her inspiration for leaving.  From all that was posted by the OP, she was afraid of him and his temper.  Those two examples he gave certainly wasn't the whole of it.  Those might have been the only two incidents where his anger was a problem, but they seemed to be enough for her.  Therefore, it should be enough for him.

How many times on these boards have I seen the reaction of "if the sub doesn't like it, they can leave?"  Well, she did.  That should be good enough for anyone.


ETA  Is moving out not quite a good enough sign of withdraw of consent?




GreedyTop -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 8:17:59 PM)

*hugs GoodFeathers* 




Lockit -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 8:18:29 PM)

Lordandmaster... the first site is using a well known example of the cycle of abuse handed out all over our country.  If you can't accept that and continue to believe that I fill this board and what... simple minds with lies to help my own agenda... then you will believe that.  Every thing I have said here is established by other's not myself... is something I confirm from my own experience in this area and accepted by courts, police agencies and many more nation wide.  Your arguement then would be with the whole system and not just me.

Now... You have accused me of a very serious thing... either prove your point and me wrong or back off please.

From the first link...
  • Intimidation — Your abuser may use a variety of intimation tactics designed to scare you into submission. Such tactics include making threatening looks or gestures, smashing things in front of you, destroying property, hurting your pets, or putting weapons on display. The clear message is that if you don't obey, there will be violent consequences.




  • SunnyTawse -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 8:22:17 PM)

    I have some professional experience with domestic abuse. Purposefully breaking things is intimidating. The pattern is a valid indicator, as is everything the OP has said so far. There is no misinformation here, Lordandmaster. You are constructing a position from logic, but human beings are not always logical.

    Sunny Tawse
    Sadien Domina




    beargonewild -> RE: Fiancee/sub disappeared, looking for a bit of advice. (12/25/2008 8:24:57 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

    Destroying WHOSE property?  If someone destroys YOUR property, yes, it's abusive--and also criminal.  If he destroys HIS OWN property, it doesn't amount to much more than "behavior I'd rather not witness."

    Anyway, look, I don't consider your websites "proof," and I don't think you're committed to trying to convince me (from your tone, I infer that you think I'm just wrong and annoying), so let's drop this.  But I think it's very dangerous to be mistaken when identifying patterns of behavior as characteristic of abusers because you're very likely to get false positives AND false negatives.  (Those mean: You're bound to suspect someone wrongly of being an abuser if he displays the pattern in question, AND you're bound to miss someone who really is an abuser if he doesn't display the pattern in question.)



    LaM, is it so difficult to accept and agree that many posters here who either know someone who was a victim of abuse and/or fully admitted they personally are survivors of physical abuse is just as valid as the guidelines provided in the links to signs of abuse?
    I ask this as I am having a difficult time trying to understand your POV.




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