RE: Subtle Abuse

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SimplyMichael -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 4:55:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys Maybe the next thread could be about Victim Mentalities? Those who love it and why. Please stop hijacking and fucking up my threads, this isn't the first time you have done this. You want a thread, start your own.

MadRabbit -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 4:56:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Cool, intellectual conversations don't happen when one person is on a zealous crusade. Huh. I'm actually totally calm, in a decent mood, feeling relaxed and completely un-zealot-like, lol. Sorry you didn't like my response. I didn't. At all. I think it is one of the most condescending and passive aggressive things you have written, mostly because of point "e". This might be a touchy and very personal subject, but demonizing people for having different opinions and disagreeing is disgusting. I saw nothing at all even close to what you wrote prior to my post except one guy getting overly defensive because he said "Nah, I don't agree with that."

Icarys -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 4:57:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys Maybe the next thread could be about Victim Mentalities? Those who love it and why. Please stop hijacking and fucking up my threads, this isn't the first time you have done this. You want a thread, start your own. Stop your whining. It wasn't an attempt to do that.

ModeratorEleven -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 4:58:38 PM)
Ok children, settle down please. XI

mistoferin -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 5:05:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation quote: Because I think it was a smart ass way of asking. That would be pot, kettle, black then considering Mist only reversed your original question. Her rephrasing it instead of answering it to begin with. Icarys, I rephrased it because I thought that maybe if I turned it around a bit you might be able to see how offensive it was......and you did. Funny thing though was you could only see my words as offensive and not your own.

NuevaVida -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 5:08:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Cool, intellectual conversations don't happen when one person is on a zealous crusade. Huh. I'm actually totally calm, in a decent mood, feeling relaxed and completely un-zealot-like, lol. Sorry you didn't like my response. I didn't. At all. I think it is one of the most condescending and passive aggressive things you have written, mostly because of point "e". This might be a touchy and very personal subject, but demonizing people for having different opinions and disagreeing is disgusting. I saw nothing at all even close to what you wrote prior to my post except one guy getting overly defensive because he said "Nah, I don't agree with that." Oh. Well it wasn't passive aggressive. Point "e" was general and not directed at you, sorry if that wasn't clear. My point of contention wasn't in being disagreed with. It was in someone specifically asking for documented information, receiving it, asking for more, receiving it, and then saying none of it mattered because his opinion on the topic was the right one, but not offering up evidence to support his opinion, as evidence had been provided for the other point of view. In other words, Person A states "I think ABC and the reason I think so is supplied here (all sorts of information provided), and Person B states, "Well you're wrong." Um, OK. Thanks for the discussion! I didn't demonize anyone though, I don't have that power. I don't think the discussion tactic I used as an example helps anyone get anywhere, though, and I said so. But yeah, I admit I thought your original remark was snarky and didn't add any substance. Again, sorry you didn't like that. And I thought your examples of escalation were not related to a bullying/violent/anger-driven mindset, so I commented on that. Sorry you didn't like that, either. But I also thought other people (prior to your post) were sarcastic, too, and I pointed that out. You're wrong, though, to think I'm upset. I am not. And there was no PA attempts in my post. If you read into that, you read wrong. I've been PA before and admitted it. This time, it just didn't happen.

BitaTruble -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 5:14:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys Isn't withdrawing into a shell kinda reacting badly? I guess that depends on whether or not you would consider what boils down to self-preservation as a bad reaction. Even leaving is a form of withdrawal, but with subtle, I think that a lack of clarity is probably implied so you do what you have to do in the moment to survive that moment. Keep in mind, too, that without clarity the options are going to be limited. One option you have is confrontation which can turn subtle abuse into overt abuse PDQ, you have withdrawal (or invisibility) and not a whole lot more than that. What would you call a 'good' reaction to subtle abuse? I ask that coming with the mind set that if it's subtle abuse it may not yet be recognized by either party .. so, what options, really, does someone have to work with in such a situation? quote: I understand what your saying and yes I would see a long term relationship that was breaking down a person as abusive.. I would say it 'could' be.. but not necessarily by definition. There are plenty of dominants who have the goal of breaking down a submissive so as to rebuild them into a stronger person and, that often works. Motivation is important, methods and means probably equally so .. but yes, subtle abuse certainly could take that route as a goal rather than a means to an end. quote: I'll add that also not everyone reacts the same way to a perceived attack. With subtle, though, it might not be recognized as an attack which is one of the reasons the options are limited. That's why I think that Michael's OP is so important. Hey, in all honesty, in this group, it's probably not going to make a huge difference but I don't think it's going to hurt anything and if there is someone out there, which ever side they are on, who recognizes themselves or someone they know because the light has been shined on the subject, then a good thing has been accomplished.. and if, by chance, there is no one for whom this thread applies, that's even better.

Icarys -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 5:17:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble I guess that depends on whether or not you would consider what boils down to self-preservation as a bad reaction. I'm not saying the act itself is bad but having to do it in the first place. [Mod Note: Please trim your quotes people. There no need to quote the 5 previous replies when adding a one line comment]

julietsierra -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 5:43:57 PM)
Links being what they are, opinions count for those who have those opinions. In the end, all I know is that for more years than I should have, I listened and internalized every one of his put downs, every one of his side comments, all of the stuff that would be done and said and inferred, all the while he was stating he loved me. And whether there was a causal relationship or not, when those comments became, over time actions that included isolation from my family, leaving me with absolutely no access to money within our bank accounts, being hit, having ligaments torn as he ripped things from my hands because I didn't hand them to him quickly enough, the inability to say no to sex, him throwing away any birth control methods I was using because if I got pregnant again, I couldn't finish school... when it became ignoring me for months on end, critizing every single night the food I cooked and how I looked and what I did or didn't do that day; when I became so afraid of doing things wrong that I stopped doing things entirely, it was abuse to me. I don't care if the holes in the walls led up to the point that he punched me. I don't care that he broke every single thing my mother and now deceased grandmother had given me all in the name of controlling his temper. All I know is that it was abuse and it took everything I had to get out. It took even more than I thought I had to recover from it and even now, 10 years after, it takes so much effort to simply choose to go do things rather than sit still - and I used to be a very very active woman. So go ahead and argue over whether psychologists, police, domestic violence workers and the abusers themselves agree or disagree. None of that matters to me. All that matters is that now, 10 years later, I still refuse to be around people who yell. I still will never marry again. I still am afraid to be around people who are drunk or who act in aggressive manner around me, and I still fight the effects of those years, and I still call it ALL abuse. And I've come a LONG way in those 10 years. juliet

RCdc -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 5:58:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble With subtle, though, it might not be recognized as an attack which is one of the reasons the options are limited. That's why I think that Michael's OP is so important. Hey, in all honesty, in this group, it's probably not going to make a huge difference but I don't think it's going to hurt anything and if there is someone out there, which ever side they are on, who recognizes themselves or someone they know because the light has been shined on the subject, then a good thing has been accomplished.. and if, by chance, there is no one for whom this thread applies, that's even better. I believe you have hit the nail on the head stating that in this group, it's not going to make a whole hell of a difference. Just look at this very thread. There are so many 'subtle abuse' examples all it really shows is that people are incapable of seeing their own abuse tactics - and that is what they are - tactics. Abuse is about control, no matter what the situation. It is about manipulating the situation so that the abuser is the one controling it. You have it all here in this very thread. Word manipulation, sarcasm, rude name calling, inuendo and victim mentality. It's all here. Now in my past, and yeah I was young, I have thrown the odd plate. I have cleaned it up after and then been pissed off at myself because I would now have an incomplete service! But honestly, a thrown plate means nothing other than I have had to vent. I can see what Michael is saying. And Erin. I can also see what Icarys is saying also and I don't think they are that far apart. But I will say that there are some people who use their past abuse history to try and excuse or even explain who they are today or use it to give some sort of credence to their 'advice'. People do feel they need to justify their knowledge - nothing wrong with that at all - but it isn't necessary to prove yourself if your words hold any truth in them. Let your words stand alone, or not at all. But I fear that the OP is never going to be advice that is never taken by those subtle abusers that have participated thusfar. Quite honestly, the thread is heartbreaking. the.dark

MadRabbit -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 6:04:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra Links being what they are, opinions count for those who have those opinions. In the end, all I know is that for more years than I should have, I listened and internalized every one of his put downs, every one of his side comments, all of the stuff that would be done and said and inferred, all the while he was stating he loved me. And whether there was a causal relationship or not, when those comments became, over time actions that included isolation from my family, leaving me with absolutely no access to money within our bank accounts, being hit, having ligaments torn as he ripped things from my hands because I didn't hand them to him quickly enough, the inability to say no to sex, him throwing away any birth control methods I was using because if I got pregnant again, I couldn't finish school... when it became ignoring me for months on end, critizing every single night the food I cooked and how I looked and what I did or didn't do that day; when I became so afraid of doing things wrong that I stopped doing things entirely, it was abuse to me. I don't care if the holes in the walls led up to the point that he punched me. I don't care that he broke every single thing my mother and now deceased grandmother had given me all in the name of controlling his temper. All I know is that it was abuse and it took everything I had to get out. It took even more than I thought I had to recover from it and even now, 10 years after, it takes so much effort to simply choose to go do things rather than sit still - and I used to be a very very active woman. So go ahead and argue over whether psychologists, police, domestic violence workers and the abusers themselves agree or disagree. None of that matters to me. All that matters is that now, 10 years later, I still refuse to be around people who yell. I still will never marry again. I still am afraid to be around people who are drunk or who act in aggressive manner around me, and I still fight the effects of those years, and I still call it ALL abuse. And I've come a LONG way in those 10 years. juliet I have to admit that I am not probably the most emotionally detached from this thread, but I am a bit emotionally invested in a different way. It's a bit hard on me to read these kind of stories, because they bring out my worst fear. Me. I am 100% absolutely motherfucking scared shitless of myself and my awareness of my capacity to lose my temper and act irrationally and in anger. I don't think there is anything in this world that scares me more or makes me sicker to my stomach than thought of being one of these people listed in this thread. Because I grew up in a household where my father got violently angry and became physically abusive toward myself and my mother on more than one occasion and I am like him a lot in my personality type. I've inherited the same capacity to become hot-headed like he does. I have never been physically or emotionally abusive with a girl I have been with and I have no intentions of ever allowing that to happen, but...still...I've seen the deepest and darkest parts of my own soul and I see those things in me that I grew up hating and despising in my father. Deep down inside, I know what I am capable of and it's something that haunts me. So while many people are reading this and afraid they will be a victim, I'm reading this and struggling with feelings of fear of being the abuser one day.

RCdc -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 6:08:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit So while many people are reading this and afraid they will be a victim, I'm reading this and struggling with feelings of fear of being the abuser one day. MR... I just have to state that you rock and that I totally believe that if the 'victims' actually stopped for a heartbeat, inhaled and thought like you even for a moment - there would not be anymore 'victims'. Some people are so focused on being the victim, they forget that they have the same capacity to be the abuser. the.dark.

MadRabbit -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 6:21:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit So while many people are reading this and afraid they will be a victim, I'm reading this and struggling with feelings of fear of being the abuser one day. MR... I just have to state that you rock and that I totally believe that if the 'victims' actually stopped for a heartbeat, inhaled and thought like you even for a moment - there would not be anymore 'victims'. Some people are so focused on being the victim, they forget that they have the same capacity to be the abuser. the.dark. Thanks dark. I think that's why I got so hostile with Nueva (Sorry, Nueva), because this has been a heartbreaking thread. It was reading Juliet's post that really struck home with me, because I remember many holes in the wall from my old childhood. The one time I did my lost my temper with a girl (and not just simply "get angry", but actually "lose my temper"), I think I left the event more emotionally traumatized then the girl, because once I saw that she was scared of me, I freaked the fuck out and spent a good 20 minutes apologizing profusely in between blasts of self assurance in the form of "I'm not my father! I'm not my father!". I HATE my temper. When I do lose it and when I do unload on someone, it's a hard personal failure for me.

julietsierra -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 6:26:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit I don't think there is anything in this world that scares me more or makes me sicker to my stomach than thought of being one of these people listed in this thread. Because I grew up in a household where my father got violently angry and became physically abusive toward myself and my mother on more than one occasion and I am like him a lot in my personality type. I've inherited the same capacity to become hot-headed like he does. I have never been physically or emotionally abusive with a girl I have been with and I have no intentions of ever allowing that to happen, but...still...I've seen the deepest and darkest parts of my own soul and I see those things in me that I grew up hating and despising in my father. Deep down inside, I know what I am capable of and it's something that haunts me. So while many people are reading this and afraid they will be a victim, I'm reading this and struggling with feelings of fear of being the abuser one day. I hear you MadRabbit. It's the fear both of my sons have. My youngest especially is very much like his father - in all the good ways as well as the not so good. As he grows older this is his greatest fear. He was the youngest and therefore least impacted by his father's actions and yet, today, he still fears the man he will become - afraid that he will become like his father in all the worst ways. I understand so well your fear. It's something we deal with on an ongoing basis here as I try to help my son "find his words" rather than use his fists. And even then, he has to find the right words, not words that have the power to damage others. It's a very difficult process. The saddest part about abuse is how it hurts so many others beyond the person who was the initial target. juliet

NuevaVida -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 6:27:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit I think that's why I got so hostile with Nueva (Sorry, Nueva), [sm=flowers.gif] We're good. MR. My apologies if the way I came across was offensive to you. It was not meant to be.

BitaTruble -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 6:30:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit So while many people are reading this and afraid they will be a victim, I'm reading this and struggling with feelings of fear of being the abuser one day. I think that's one of the bravest posts I've ever read on these boards and with that sort of mentality, half the battle is won and half is a good start to conquer the rest.

julietsierra -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 6:58:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit So while many people are reading this and afraid they will be a victim, I'm reading this and struggling with feelings of fear of being the abuser one day. MR... I just have to state that you rock and that I totally believe that if the 'victims' actually stopped for a heartbeat, inhaled and thought like you even for a moment - there would not be anymore 'victims'. Some people are so focused on being the victim, they forget that they have the same capacity to be the abuser. the.dark. I don't think we forget. I think we're well aware of that capacity. We know how crazy-making anger can make people and some of us are very aware of how angry we can get if we allow it. Some of us have years and YEARS of anger that we're slowly trying to diffuse but is still locked up inside of us. And I think we overcompensate. Some of us rarely make waves, we try at all costs to remain in control of ourselves and in doing so, lose so much of the joy that's in life - so much so that we have to be constantly reminded of it. Others amongst us who were the victims are loudly protesting being the victim of anything again. We're on the defensive and quick to see the damage someone else is inflicting because never again will we be fooled by professions of love while the actions we experience tell a completely different story. And for both of these sides, victimhood is a safer, more well known, albiet less desired place to be. We know it. We understand it. And above all, we don't want to become the very people we learned to fear and hate. Maintaining our victimhood acts as some sort of cushion from these fears and well...right or wrong, there we are.

MadRabbit -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 7:11:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra I hear you MadRabbit. It's the fear both of my sons have. My youngest especially is very much like his father - in all the good ways as well as the not so good. As he grows older this is his greatest fear. He was the youngest and therefore least impacted by his father's actions and yet, today, he still fears the man he will become - afraid that he will become like his father in all the worst ways. He won't. I'm not my father. I know I am capable of being that person, but I am not that person right now. I know I have a temper, but as I have said before, I don't consider myself to have an anger problem, because I know what I am capable of and I am scared of that. The fact that I am afraid of it is what keeps me from having an anger problem if that makes sense. I was a lot worse when I was younger, but I have considerably mellowed out over the years and have improved by leaps of bounds with the help of some anger management books and advice of people I have met over the years. Generally, I am really good at stopping myself when I get in what I like to call "intense mode" before it reachs boiling point, but I still do go over the top in the rare situation that always involves another guy, confrontration and testerone. At the point, it's not a gradual build up, but rather a powder keg that goes off instantly where I switch to irrational thinking. It's hard for me to catch myself and walk away before I say or do something that I will later regret.

beargonewild -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 7:12:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit So while many people are reading this and afraid they will be a victim, I'm reading this and struggling with feelings of fear of being the abuser one day. And from what I surmises, there are countless others who also feel this way yet they may not have the courage to be able to voice what you have here.

MadRabbit -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/27/2008 7:17:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit So while many people are reading this and afraid they will be a victim, I'm reading this and struggling with feelings of fear of being the abuser one day. MR... I just have to state that you rock and that I totally believe that if the 'victims' actually stopped for a heartbeat, inhaled and thought like you even for a moment - there would not be anymore 'victims'. Some people are so focused on being the victim, they forget that they have the same capacity to be the abuser. the.dark. I don't think we forget. I think we're well aware of that capacity. We know how crazy-making anger can make people and some of us are very aware of how angry we can get if we allow it. Some of us have years and YEARS of anger that we're slowly trying to diffuse but is still locked up inside of us. And I think we overcompensate. Some of us rarely make waves, we try at all costs to remain in control of ourselves and in doing so, lose so much of the joy that's in life - so much so that we have to be constantly reminded of it. Others amongst us who were the victims are loudly protesting being the victim of anything again. We're on the defensive and quick to see the damage someone else is inflicting because never again will we be fooled by professions of love while the actions we experience tell a completely different story. And for both of these sides, victimhood is a safer, more well known, albiet less desired place to be. We know it. We understand it. And above all, we don't want to become the very people we learned to fear and hate. Maintaining our victimhood acts as some sort of cushion from these fears and well...right or wrong, there we are. In addition to that awesome post, I have a different look at it. One of the main insights I took away from Jung's "Archetypes" was a sentence where he stated at we, as human beings, naturally like to fall prey to the delusion created by the ego that we are heroes who's actions are above right and wrong. Thus, it makes the process of developing self awareness difficult, because we are often incapable of seeing the wrong of our actions. We rationalize it and find reasons for it, but ultimately remain blind to the simple truth that the capacity to do good and bad exists in all of us. Even people who do develop self awareness of their behaviors find some way to foster this delusion and keep their ego intact by constantly making outcries to being "saved" or "reformed", often while still repeating the same behaviors in present while constantly referencing the past they are cured of. Edited to Add : While I don't believe I have an anger problem, I think the most dangerous thing would be if one day I started to believe that I no longer had the capacity to lose my temper or believed that I was somehow absolved of this part of me that I am inherently afraid of, because being afraid of the bad that I am capable of is what keeps my anger incidents rare and scarce.

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