RE: Subtle Abuse

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lally3 -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 9:34:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Like Rayne, the constant put downs caused learned helplessness. I learned that no matter what I did, I was wrong, so it was safer never to do anything. The problems left over into this relationship are that I am still relatively passive. It takes a perfect day for me to initiate sexual contact because I'm so afraid of being rejected meanly. I'm afraid of anticipatory service for fear of guessing wrong as to what he might like and being shot down as a result. The scars left are many and longlasting. All from verbal and emotional abuse. the funny thing is that you tell yourself youre over it, youve moved on. and then i read something like this and i recognise myself in these words and realise that im not. control through abuse is a common enough thing. i was walking through an airport some months back - just wading through the crowds minding my own business. a man walked right up to me, barred my way and said 'I can tell youve not married'. i knew what he was driving at, in his accusatory, almost aggressive voice - that the impression i give is of being a free spirit, unbent and unbowed. a similar comment was made a few years ago on the london underground, as i boarded and went to sit down i heard a man say to his friend, 'dont worry, she'll be married in a few years'. as if marriage was to be my downfall, that inevitably the process of living with a man would crush the life out of me. its a common belief i think and one ive never understood. why destroy the thing youre attracted to and love. here, in this 'world' i am encouraged to be me, so long as i am submissive to Him. abuse, subtle or otherwise is something i sense very quickly - react to vehemently and leave. i will never be squashed again. sometimes its so subtle im gone before ive even properly accounted for it. only afterwards when i think about it do i realise that little flags were starting to fly. or i start to get obtuse and resistant - its visceral now and maybe too finely tuned. but to say that thumping a hole in a door is subtle abuse, im not sure - it would need to be backed up by a corrosive, violent personality for me to feel threatened.

julietsierra -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 9:38:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys Those that live behind brick walls will slowly starve. What you have stated is one of the reasons I said what I said earlier. You'll probably see anger issues where there might not be any. You'll live the rest of your life running from fear. Any and all of the above with I'm sure a few more possibilities will most likely be your future unless you tone it down and learn to balance those beliefs. If your happy living like that then more power to you but I wouldn't believe you were if you said it. lol thanks Icarys for your concern. However, to date, I am in a six year relationship with someone who meets all those parameters and exceeds them. The one "argument" we've had in six years took us six months to work through because neither of us was willing to engage in the drama our respective anger would have dredged up. We talked. We stopped. We brought it up again when we were calm and talked some more. Stopped when things started getting out of hand. He doesn't raise his voice to me. Doesn't 'get' the whole process of ranting and raving simply because we're angry. We take time to process what each has said and never shove things under the carpet. Sometimes it's difficult work, but ALL the time, it's worth it. He holds me to the same standards I hold him to. If I want to start yelling, he'll simply walk away with a promise to continue this when I'm calmer. If I would break something in anger (something I don't do), he'd expect me to a) clean it up and then b) leave. We don't fool around with indiscriminate angst and work very hard to hear the other person when they're speaking. Sometimes, we don't agree. And in those instances, we agree to disagree or of course, if it means that much to us, there are other options, up to and including walking away entirely. I don't expect you to believe me. People who don't operate like this have very difficult times understanding the process. They can't be bothered with taking the time. Personally, I'd rather solve something than argue, so that sets the tone for the rest of our interactions. But since I've dealt with 'war zone relationships,' I have absolutely no desire to do that again. And I won't. Quite simply, I'd rather my passions take root in love, not enmity. juliet

missturbation -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 9:59:55 AM)
I've been reading this thread but other than the odd comment pretty much tried to stay away from it for various reasons. One of the reasons is the mentality of people that claim people who have suffered abuse, subtle or otherwise are weak and will play the victim. It always seems to be a generalisation, a sweeping statement and whilst true for some victims of abuse, it's not for everyone. Another reason is the attitude that sharing stories of abuse doesn't help anyone. This one really riles me. Even if hearing anothers experiences only makes you realise you are not alone in your suffering it is worth it. If it helps you to see there are ways out then it's doubly worth it. If it helps you personally to talk about your experiences it has to be a good thing right? What is and what is not abuse is purely subjective. If i feel throwing a plate at a wall is abusive behaviour then it IS and it is up to me to deal with the situation appropriately. If i feel throwing a plate at a wall is not abusive then it ISN'T. My final bug bear is people who have never suffered abuse of any form telling others what is abusive and what is not. Again it is subjective but until you have WALKED A MILE IN MY SHOES do not presume to tell me how i am supposed to feel about something.

Icarys -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 10:23:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys Those that live behind brick walls will slowly starve. What you have stated is one of the reasons I said what I said earlier. You'll probably see anger issues where there might not be any. You'll live the rest of your life running from fear. Any and all of the above with I'm sure a few more possibilities will most likely be your future unless you tone it down and learn to balance those beliefs. If your happy living like that then more power to you but I wouldn't believe you were if you said it. lol thanks Icarys for your concern. However, to date, I am in a six year relationship with someone who meets all those parameters and exceeds them. The one "argument" we've had in six years took us six months to work through because neither of us was willing to engage in the drama our respective anger would have dredged up. We talked. We stopped. We brought it up again when we were calm and talked some more. Stopped when things started getting out of hand. He doesn't raise his voice to me. Doesn't 'get' the whole process of ranting and raving simply because we're angry. We take time to process what each has said and never shove things under the carpet. Sometimes it's difficult work, but ALL the time, it's worth it. He holds me to the same standards I hold him to. If I want to start yelling, he'll simply walk away with a promise to continue this when I'm calmer. If I would break something in anger (something I don't do), he'd expect me to a) clean it up and then b) leave. We don't fool around with indiscriminate angst and work very hard to hear the other person when they're speaking. Sometimes, we don't agree. And in those instances, we agree to disagree or of course, if it means that much to us, there are other options, up to and including walking away entirely. I don't expect you to believe me. People who don't operate like this have very difficult times understanding the process. They can't be bothered with taking the time. Personally, I'd rather solve something than argue, so that sets the tone for the rest of our interactions. But since I've dealt with 'war zone relationships,' I have absolutely no desire to do that again. And I won't. Quite simply, I'd rather my passions take root in love, not enmity. juliet Well I'm glad things are working out for you. Just as long as you know there will be arguments. What your post sounded like to me was you were expecting him not to be human.

Icarys -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 10:41:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys Those that live behind brick walls will slowly starve. What you have stated is one of the reasons I said what I said earlier. You'll probably see anger issues where there might not be any. You'll live the rest of your life running from fear. Any and all of the above with I'm sure a few more possibilities will most likely be your future unless you tone it down and learn to balance those beliefs. If your happy living like that then more power to you but I wouldn't believe you were if you said it. You already lost me on the whole victim mentality statement so it's not all that big of surprise I am wondering what tangent you are going off on regarding this one. Taking a closer look at juliet's post... quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra You broke something out of anger. You're gone. You raise your voice to me instead of talk to me. You're gone. You discover that you're out of control. You're gone. If I am afraid of what you will do because you're angry, you're gone. I will never NEVER be put in a position where I have to live in fear in my own house EVER again. It also happens to be the reason I will never live with someone again either - unless it IS my own house. And I really don't care and won't care if something led up to it or not. It is what it is. You make me afraid of you and your anger, you're out. I don't see how having a no tolerance policy to someone who doesn't have solid control over his temper equates to "living behind a brick wall". Would selecting someone with clear signs of heavy alcoholism, drug abuse, and psychological issues as well heighten the feast of life, free from the confines of brick walls? Nobody should be with a partner who fosters feelings of fear and insecurity in them over the unpredictability of what they might do the next time you piss them off. Period. If you interpreted her post that way, more power to you, but I don't see it that way at all. If juliet was dating me and she told me what she told me above, I would tell her it was over, because I am definitely not the kind of person she needs to be with. You can rationalize breaking a plate and screaming with the intellectually dishonest statement of "Everyone does it!", but they are still irresponsible behaviors. No tolerance policies rarely work. Again you see a meaning that's much more in depth than what I was going for. I simply meant give a little room to breathe as my own personal belief. I don't let someone I'm with get away with yelling at me but I also know that the majority of people get stressed and act out in ways that she had posted she would not allow. Mark my words..there will be a time when He or even she gets to a point in their relationship that they become overstressed and it won't always work like it is now. What will she do then? What I perceived in her way of thinking was that there is no room for mistakes. What it sounds like to me is that both of them deal with things in a wonderful manner and I'm happy for them. Honestly, despite what she has said, I can understand how something at least very close to that is possible. I've had relationships where there was essentially no arguing and absolutely no yelling. The reason for that is because the females were such docile people and that put me at extreme ease. I knock that one up to compatibility. We simply worked well together.

colouredin -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 11:03:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation My final bug bear is people who have never suffered abuse of any form telling others what is abusive and what is not. Again it is subjective but until you have WALKED A MILE IN MY SHOES do not presume to tell me how i am supposed to feel about something. The problem is everyone deals with it differantly, you say if it helps one to share their stories they should, well sure but what if it hurts another to read such stories? As you said no one has ever walked a mile in anyone but their own shoes, the advice we give is what has worked for us but no its never going to be universal, never. As you said we have to deal with it in our own way but also understand that we should never force our own way on other people.

Icarys -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 11:14:58 AM)
quote: My final bug bear is people who have never suffered abuse of any form telling others what is abusive and what is not. Again it is subjective but until you have WALKED A MILE IN MY SHOES do not presume to tell me how i am supposed to feel about something. How do you know that I or any of these other people haven't went through abuse like yours and just may not want to share it with the world? Going through abuse does give you an insiders perspective on it but in no way makes you an expert nor does it mean you have a good perspective.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 11:21:34 AM)
Anyone is always free to walk if they don't like the relationship they're in. If you think I'm saying that women should stay with a man who upsets them by breaking things, you've badly misunderstood me. quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra Whatever your reasons, if you and I were involved and you began breaking things, what you'd have on your hands would not be pretty. See, I don't care one whit whether you're in one of the categories you've listed or the other or have found a category all of your own. All I know is that you are angry and that you're breaking things because of that anger rather than going for a walk and calming down so we can talk. And all the intellectualizing of the situation won't matter.

GreedyTop -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 11:28:18 AM)
it's not always that easy to just walk out, LAM. one of the 2 exes I referenced on that other thread had me convinced that he would hunt me down and kill me if I left. It took my estranged husband and 2 of his biggest, meanest friends to get me out of there.

LaTigresse -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 11:49:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys No tolerance policies rarely work. Again you see a meaning that's much more in depth than what I was going for. I simply meant give a little room to breathe as my own personal belief. I don't let someone I'm with get away with yelling at me but I also know that the majority of people get stressed and act out in ways that she had posted she would not allow. Mark my words..there will be a time when He or even she gets to a point in their relationship that they become overstressed and it won't always work like it is now. What will she do then? What I perceived in her way of thinking was that there is no room for mistakes. What it sounds like to me is that both of them deal with things in a wonderful manner and I'm happy for them. Honestly, despite what she has said, I can understand how something at least very close to that is possible. I've had relationships where there was essentially no arguing and absolutely no yelling. The reason for that is because the females were such docile people and that put me at extreme ease. I knock that one up to compatibility. We simply worked well together. "No tollerance policies rarely work." I am going to have to call total bullshit on this. I also find it extremely humorous on a forum where many involved in M/s relationships post. My relationships are full of "no tollerance". Oddly enough they are relationships that rarely involve anything close to yelling or breaking of things. I actually find the opposite difficult to imagine. All relationships are based upon certain expectations, whether communicated or not. If one person communicates their expectations, and stands firm, the other/s have a choice to either comply or walk away. It doesn't require any yelling or childish behaviour to communicate either point of view. It is just what many people come to expect or find as "normal" so they cannot imagine it to work any other way. My grandparents never yelled, neither did my parents. Neither woman was compliant or docile. One relationship was a longterm, till death do us part, sucessful, relationship. The other was hideously fucked up. Yet, again, no abuse, of any sort, was ever visible. I grew up completely ignorant of the potential for nastiness, people that love one another, are capable of. Talking, communication, creating rules and boundaries and lots of love and affection, both verbal and physical, were my norm. Therefor that was how I expected others to behave. Anything else was immature and should be corrected. I have never EVER had any respect for an adult that cannot control their reactions to anger or other potentially destructive emotions and behaviours. To say that it is impossible to live a life, as an adult, like that, is rediculous. I've seen too many beautiful human beings prove the opposite.

Icarys -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 12:02:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys No tolerance policies rarely work. Again you see a meaning that's much more in depth than what I was going for. I simply meant give a little room to breathe as my own personal belief. I don't let someone I'm with get away with yelling at me but I also know that the majority of people get stressed and act out in ways that she had posted she would not allow. Mark my words..there will be a time when He or even she gets to a point in their relationship that they become overstressed and it won't always work like it is now. What will she do then? What I perceived in her way of thinking was that there is no room for mistakes. What it sounds like to me is that both of them deal with things in a wonderful manner and I'm happy for them. Honestly, despite what she has said, I can understand how something at least very close to that is possible. I've had relationships where there was essentially no arguing and absolutely no yelling. The reason for that is because the females were such docile people and that put me at extreme ease. I knock that one up to compatibility. We simply worked well together. "No tollerance policies rarely work." I am going to have to call total bullshit on this. I also find it extremely humorous on a forum where many involved in M/s relationships post. My relationships are full of "no tollerance". Oddly enough they are relationships that rarely involve anything close to yelling or breaking of things. I actually find the opposite difficult to imagine. All relationships are based upon certain expectations, whether communicated or not. If one person communicates their expectations, and stands firm, the other/s have a choice to either comply or walk away. It doesn't require any yelling or childish behaviour to communicate either point of view. It is just what many people come to expect or find as "normal" so they cannot imagine it to work any other way. My grandparents never yelled, neither did my parents. Neither woman was compliant or docile. One relationship was a longterm, till death do us part, sucessful, relationship. The other was hideously fucked up. Yet, again, no abuse, of any sort, was ever visible. I grew up completely ignorant of the potential for nastiness, people that love one another, are capable of. Talking, communication, creating rules and boundaries and lots of love and affection, both verbal and physical, were my norm. Therefor that was how I expected others to behave. Anything else was immature and should be corrected. I have never EVER had any respect for an adult that cannot control their reactions to anger or other potentially destructive emotions and behaviours. To say that it is impossible to live a life, as an adult, like that, is rediculous. I've seen too many beautiful human beings prove the opposite. Notice the use of the word rarely as in it's not impossible but improbable to me. Of course in your quest for the dramatic you passed right by that. You can call bullshit all you want, it's not gonna change anything. I love these dramatic I'm gonna make a stand people. I'm a very strict person but I like to think I'm balanced enough to realize that there's gonna be human error. You can tell someone that you had better not do this or else but I doubt that type of attitude works well in reality. I'm sure if you look around our society a little you'll see examples of no tolerance working in all of it's glory. (tongue in cheek) Some people like to talk tough with words like..No kids left behind...War on drugs and the No tolerance policy crap but in the end the actual people who have to live that crap suffer.

LadyPact -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 12:26:13 PM)
I've promised that I would behave Myself. It seems My attempt at humor was not quite appreciated earlier. I apologize. quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation I've been reading this thread but other than the odd comment pretty much tried to stay away from it for various reasons. One of the reasons is the mentality of people that claim people who have suffered abuse, subtle or otherwise are weak and will play the victim. It always seems to be a generalisation, a sweeping statement and whilst true for some victims of abuse, it's not for everyone. Another reason is the attitude that sharing stories of abuse doesn't help anyone. This one really riles me. Even if hearing anothers experiences only makes you realise you are not alone in your suffering it is worth it. If it helps you to see there are ways out then it's doubly worth it. If it helps you personally to talk about your experiences it has to be a good thing right? What is and what is not abuse is purely subjective. If i feel throwing a plate at a wall is abusive behaviour then it IS and it is up to me to deal with the situation appropriately. If i feel throwing a plate at a wall is not abusive then it ISN'T. My final bug bear is people who have never suffered abuse of any form telling others what is abusive and what is not. Again it is subjective but until you have WALKED A MILE IN MY SHOES do not presume to tell me how i am supposed to feel about something. This is just My personal opinion, but I don't really believe the victim mentality has a place in the discussion at all. As has been said repeatedly on this thread and the other it originated from, it is not what abuse is defined as by the legal system. If a person feels threatened in a relationship, they have every right to leave. It doesn't matter if I think it's an abusive situation, or anybody else, other than the person who is in that situation. I also agree that the sharing of stories is helpful. If for no other reason, it gives people a chance to hear what those experiences were like. It's a learning opportunity, like anything else we learn from by the people who lived it. There have been a lot of things covered in this thread that I don't have personal experience with for Myself. Yet, I couldn't help Myself but to remember sharing those "bright and shiny" moments with various women I've known. I've seen that look come through on the faces of women who were getting their first place after staying at the safe house. Sure, many of times, the furnishings were anything but bright and shiny, and more often than not, there were long past new. I don't recall once that any of those things mattered. It was a home. How anyone can say not wanting to have to go through the battle to make it through to the "bright and shiny" point again is putting up brick walls is beyond Me.

RCdc -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 12:30:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark And there you have it. It's therapeutic. It's comfort. But don't place is all (the back patting) on those that share, but those that deal effectively. Again I will repeat. It's not what occured, it's how you deal. the.dark. And it's also a pissible door that someone might knock on and say, "Hey, I am going through something similar...can you help point me to a direction out because until I heard your story, I thought I was alone in this." I know you & I often agree and sometimes don't, and that's cool, and it's obviously your perogative that you want to call this comfort and "back patting." What's hard is that your own posts seem to be subtly cutting down those who have posted in this thread without directly saying so. I have to ask, if what we are saying is an example of abusive, and is heartbreaking to you, why have you returned to keep reading and posting here? I guess it's all in the personal take. I am going to be answering both yourself and erin here, so hopefully you will both be patient with me. As I have said to Juliet, it's completely possible amd I could see that what I wrote came across as a generalisation. Now, Juliet seems to have grasped that and even accepted it - someone I have no personal relationship with unlike yourself and erin - by personal I mean that we have had contact outside this forum arena - erin and I moreso than yourself over the years. Both of whom I have affection for and both of whom I love dearly, even though we rarely agree. I will not be made to feel as though I have to keep repeating myself NV - If it came across as a generalisation to you, then it was not meant to be - as I said to Juliet before - because it would have to include me in it if it did. But I still stand by what I said. That some people pull out the past as an explaination for what they now are or how they now act or react. And I do not buy into it on a personal level, particularly when I see examples of victims becoming abusers. On a side note, I don't believe pack patting to be a negative action I don't find comfort negative either so when I use those terms, they aren't in the negative. If you do - I cannot help that and I cannot apologise for using words that have a postitive edge for me. Which leads to your questions - why do I come back and read even if I find it heartbreaking? I come back to read because I have the choice to - because I can. Because I enjoy reading what people like MR have to say, or Icarys or bita - I enjoyed your informative post earlier on. In that, I am reading their responses to others - If I want to understand a response I have to understand the question posed. I do it because I want to have an interesting discussion with Juliet - as I felt I did. I learnt something. Because I felt compelled to admire MRs' stance verbally. Because I wanted to and because within the terms of CM - I could. Like MR said - I find the whole thread heartbreaking. OK - and this is where I offically 'ended' my post when something has just struck me because no one came down on MR for stating the same thing and I wondered why. I could just delete the above and go with this - but no - instead I am posting both the above and where I believe the issue lays. NV - you write. quote: I have to ask, if what we are saying is an example of abusive, and is heartbreaking to you, why have you returned to keep reading and posting here? That is incorrect. I find the entire thread heartbreaking. I never stated at all that what 'you were saying is an example of abusive'. I said I could also see abuse occuring during the thread, but that isn't specifically why the thread is heartbreaking. the.dark.

MrDevlin -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 12:31:25 PM)
I think it's simple. Abuse is done out of anger. Whether the anger is born of the moment, or deep-rooted, it's a departure from "consenting adults seeking mutual fulfillment" and abusive.

beargonewild -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 12:35:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation One of the reasons is the mentality of people that claim people who have suffered abuse, subtle or otherwise are weak and will play the victim. It always seems to be a generalisation, a sweeping statement and whilst true for some victims of abuse, it's not for everyone. And another thing which should be mentioned is the fact of a person who went through a period of abuse and has reached a point where they are able to speak of that experience. Giving the benefit of the doubt, they simply relate their experience to make others aware of what had happened to them from their perspective. Yes it is easy for others to see that as a victim's mentality and think the abused are weak which is often not the case. It all boils down to which perspective you are looking from and it's not necessary the most correct one. For the survivors, they feel one step closer to feeling safe and freer from the after effects of the trauma they endured and possibly with a hope that by relating their story it may somehow reach another who is too scared or fearful to leave an abusive relationship. I will be the first to admit that I do not have the answers and any reasonable answer or explanations I can offer is strictly through my eyes....no matter how skewed or screwed up it will appear to others. ETA: My only question is wanting to see how other's define "victim mentality."

ThundersCry -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 12:36:44 PM)
Abusers are very good at keeping their victims close to them... Sound good huh...just walk away whats WRONG with you... Unfortunatley...thats not the case... I remember a CPS worker telling me years back...who was handling my daughters case at the time...statistics show...a lady will have walked, split...move out on an abuser only to return...an average of 7 times, if she is not killed....first. Many are killed emotionally, menatlly and spiritually...but then there are those who die by the hands of the abuser....with protection orders on them and court appearences pending... Lets see...she finally left abuser #2 a year ago...she is a mess and her children may never heal from what they saw and experienced.... I often wonder...why I`m not in the pen for...reacting...not leaving close by may be the only reason... Go to bed at night wondering if tonights the night you get the call saying shes...dead If it was only that easy L-a-m... Abuse is abuse... The ones that are pro`s at subtle abuse are the most dangerous imo...because at some point....they suck their victims in... They become...slaves.. Sadly...there are people who think that is real...dominance...

Lordandmaster -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 12:38:39 PM)
Yes, I'm aware of that. In fact, I said exactly the same thing just now: http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2361048. At this point it's impossible for Lam to write anything on this thread without someone immediately responding that I must be wrong because I'm male and have never been abused. quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop it's not always that easy to just walk out, LAM.

kiwisub12 -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 12:58:06 PM)
I don't recall anyone saying that you have to be female to be abused. Or that you have to be abused to have something signifigant to contribute to this discussion. You are more likely to be abused if you are female - just a fact. and personal experience makes posts more interesting to read, because it IS personal - as in not dry facts. However even outside these points, everyone has a point of view, and even one that i personally may disagree with, adds depth to any discussion.

julietsierra -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 12:59:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster Yes, I'm aware of that. In fact, I said exactly the same thing just now: http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2361048. At this point it's impossible for Lam to write anything on this thread without someone immediately responding that I must be wrong because I'm male and have never been abused. quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop it's not always that easy to just walk out, LAM. The fact that you're male has nothing to do with it LAM. Men are abused as are women. No one has really good numbers for this segment of society because of the social stigma that often arises because of what's done to a man by a woman, but abusers can be male and can be female. Abuse victims can be male and can be female. What my concern was was that while I understand what you're trying to say, I also know that in my view, none of the causal factors, etc amount to anything when you're the target. It simply doesn't matter whether the breaking of the dish led to the black eye. It doesn't matter that someone's angry outburst did or did not lead to being more physically abused. In the end, the only thing that matters is that however the escalation process worked, there's one person now who is afraid of someone else and that is causing much more damage than even they can imagine. To that end, I made rules for myself. Some, like Icarys may think they're too stringint, and perhaps they are. But they're promises to myself to never let someone encroach on what makes me.. me ever again. I admit fully that lots of these rules are knee-jerk reactions. At the same time, they are also rules I hold myself to, and if I can manage these, then I have a difficult time understanding why someone else can't. And I have an even more difficult time understanding why I should even be placed in a position of attempting to justify my views, why I should accept what I consider baby steps toward something worse and why I should allow folks who want to argue this point with me close enough to hurt me once more. I, and every single one of us have the right to go through life unafraid of those we care most for. We have the right be able to be genuine in our behaviors, beliefs and interactions, and when someone can frighten me into compliance simply because he is bigger, louder, stronger, tougher than I am, then to me, that's wrong. It's just wrong. Even in how I approach my submission in this life, I don't expect to be cowed into compliance. This is a choice I freely and happily make. It's one of the reasons why my relationship doesn't have a punishment component to it. It's also one of the reasons my Master chooses for there to be no punishment component. Him knowing me and me knowing him, there is simply no place for it in our lives, and we do all right. So, it doesn't matter if the person who is abusing is male or female. It doesn't matter if he or she has experienced abuse themselves or not. I won't diminish my feelings with intellectual debate over the rightness of how I live my life. All that matters to me is that I am safe. juliet

agirl -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 1:02:08 PM)
FR.. I read a post by mistoferin with a litany of documented behaviour that would have made me incredibly unhappy..(well, by now, I've read more than one) ...but what I find difficult to understand is being told that I don't know what I would do, or that I only know what * I think I would do. I don't know, and I CAN'T know what happens between having bliss and being taken apart piece by piece in THAT way......because there is something, and I cannot say WHAT that something is, that doesn't go beyond a certain point, no matter how subtle. Two people have mentioned love...One mentioned loving THAT hard and having invested THAT much..............and another mentioned Protestations of love while the behaviour does not... There is obviously some reason why some people AREN'T susceptible to that type of abuse and some reason ( whatever that may be, I don't know what it is) why some people are. I sincerely don't KNOW why someone would put up with the type of behaviour that mistoferin did. It's not a display of strength to say that I wouldn't. It's a fact. I'm a VERY selfish person.....I can put up with an awful lot IF it's within the realms of not making me TOO hideously trama-bound. I haven't easily walked away from* any relationship that mattered..My point of that's far enough isn't the same as anyone elses....and why SHOULD it be? Some of the things I've read about have me asking serious questions ...Like WHY would anyone allow themselves to be isolated from their family and friends? And what imput does the family and frends have that it can be reduced to nil? I'm not immune to the type of subtle abuse that was mentioned in the OP... of course it's upsetting and as I said before.........a chap thumping the table isn't my idea of a fun friday evening. How much of that we each take on board and internalise is going to differ hugely. I can't imagine how hard I'd have to love someone to be abused. agirl

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