RE: Subtle Abuse (Full Version)

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LaTigresse -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 1:08:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

No tolerance policies rarely work.

Again you see a meaning that's much more in depth than what I was going for. I simply meant give a little room to breathe as my own personal belief. I don't let someone I'm with get away with yelling at me but I also know that the majority of people get stressed and act out in ways that she had posted she would not allow.

Mark my words..there will be a time when He or even she gets to a point in their relationship that they become overstressed and it won't always work like it is now.
What will she do then? What I perceived in her way of thinking was that there is no room for mistakes.

What it sounds like to me is that both of them deal with things in a wonderful manner and I'm happy for them. Honestly, despite what she has said, I can understand how something at least very close to that is possible.

I've had relationships where there was essentially no arguing and absolutely no yelling. The reason for that is because the females were such docile people and that put me at extreme ease. I knock that one up to compatibility.  We simply worked well together.



"No tollerance policies rarely work."

I am going to have to call total bullshit on this. I also find it extremely humorous on a forum where many involved in M/s relationships post. My relationships are full of "no tollerance". Oddly enough they are relationships that rarely involve anything close to yelling or breaking of things. I actually find the opposite difficult to imagine.

All relationships are based upon certain expectations, whether communicated or not. If one person communicates their expectations, and stands firm, the other/s have a choice to either comply or walk away. It doesn't require any yelling or childish behaviour to communicate either point of view. It is just what many people come to expect or find as "normal" so they cannot imagine it to work any other way.

My grandparents never yelled, neither did my parents. Neither woman was compliant or docile. One relationship was a longterm, till death do us part, sucessful, relationship. The other was hideously fucked up. Yet, again, no abuse, of any sort, was ever visible. I grew up completely ignorant of the potential for nastiness, people that love one another, are capable of. Talking, communication, creating rules and boundaries and lots of love and affection, both verbal and physical, were my norm. Therefor that was how I expected others to behave. Anything else was immature and should be corrected. I have never EVER had any respect for an adult that cannot control their reactions to anger or other potentially destructive emotions and behaviours.

To say that it is impossible to live a life, as an adult, like that, is rediculous. I've seen too many beautiful human beings prove the opposite.

Notice the use of the word rarely as in it's not impossible but improbable to me.
Of course in your quest for the dramatic you passed right by that.

You can call bullshit all you want, it's not gonna change anything. I love these dramatic I'm gonna make a stand people.

I'm a very strict person but I like to think I'm balanced enough to realize that there's gonna be human error. You can tell someone that you had better not do this or else but I doubt that type of attitude works well in reality.

I'm sure if you look around our society a little you'll see examples of no tolerance working in all of it's glory. (tongue in cheek)

Some people like to talk tough with words like..No kids left behind...War on drugs and the No tolerance policy crap but in the end the actual people who have to live that crap suffer.


Now you are just being silly.

I don't know what world you live in but in mine, I could make a very long list of "no tollerance" examples that work very well. Both personally and professionally.

Call me overly dramatic if it makes you feel better. It doesn't matter one way or another to me. All I see in your words are examples for making excuses for failure. Something most that abuse are very good at. All too often, the victims also.



Icarys -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 1:26:37 PM)

quote:

Now you are just being silly.

I don't know what world you live in but in mine, I could make a very long list of "no tollerance" examples that work very well. Both personally and professionally.

Call me overly dramatic if it makes you feel better. It doesn't matter one way or another to me. All I see in your words are examples for making excuses for failure. Something most that abuse are very good at. All too often, the victims also.


As a side note: I'm surprised nobody has told you about cropping your reply's :>.

Yes I was being silly because you seemed to look past the obvious so you could make your dramatic point.

Anyway, showing examples of things that didn't and don't work in my opinion, are  not a way to make an excuse. It's not a failure to realize a fact of life about people and to see reality as a whole. There are extremes in everyday life both "good" and "bad" but there are many more that are stretched out along those lines toward the middle. Adopting a no tolerance policy in my opinion works well verbally but never have I seen it work out well in any relationship for extended periods. M's relationships or any other for that matter. Now if your talking about calling out your mate every time something happens..I'm all for that but if your talking about not giving people second chances for a single infraction..I call bullshit quite dramatically like.



BitaTruble -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 1:28:46 PM)

quote:

There is obviously some reason why some people AREN'T susceptible to that type of abuse and some reason ( whatever that may be, I don't know what it is) why some people are.


For me, there was no other kind of behavior to compare. As far as I knew, yelling, hitting, throwing stuff, nasty names, and never seeming able to do anything right along with drug and alcohol abuse .. that was all normal. That's what 'everyone' did so when I jumped head first into an M/s relationship, the behavior patterns weren't all that different. There was still yelling, hitting, throwing stuff, nasty names and never being able to do anything right. Why walk away from something so normal? Why question something when you know that it's just a part of life and it's how everyone else lives, too?

A lot of times, until we get out and about, we don't realize how confined that space we call our world has been for us. The perspectives we bring into adult life can have a single lens and everything is seen through that single lens. If you add 2 + 2 and get 5, you're not going to erase it and work the problem again if you think you've already got the right answer. Everyone and their brother knows it supposed to be 4 .. but you weren't in school that day so didn't get the lesson that, hey, maybe something's a bit screwy here and I need to go back and check it out. You'll keep adding 2 + 2 and getting 5 until someone either points it out to you or you stop for a moment, let go of the old math you've always known and just count the damn numbers up on a couple of fingers. It seems so simple, but without the catalyst for that change, without something to trigger it.. you just keep walking the same route .. it's normal, it's comfortable and.. you get used to it.





GreedyTop -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 1:30:29 PM)

nicely said, Celeste....



beargonewild -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 1:30:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

There is obviously some reason why some people AREN'T susceptible to that type of abuse and some reason ( whatever that may be, I don't know what it is) why some people are.


For me, there was no other kind of behavior to compare. As far as I knew, yelling, hitting, throwing stuff, nasty names, and never seeming able to do anything right along with drug and alcohol abuse .. that was all normal. That's what 'everyone' did so when I jumped head first into an M/s relationship, the behavior patterns weren't all that different. There was still yelling, hitting, throwing stuff, nasty names and never being able to do anything right. Why walk away from something so normal? Why question something when you know that it's just a part of life and it's how everyone else lives, too?

A lot of times, until we get out and about, we don't realize how confined that space we call our world has been for us. The perspectives we bring into adult life can have a single lens and everything is seen through that single lens. If you add 2 + 2 and get 5, you're not going to erase it and work the problem again if you think you've already got the right answer. Everyone and their brother knows it supposed to be 4 .. but you weren't in school that day so didn't get the lesson that, hey, maybe something's a bit screwy here and I need to go back and check it out. You'll keep adding 2 + 2 and getting 5 until someone either points it out to you or you stop for a moment, let go of the old math you've always known and just count the damn numbers up on a couple of fingers. It seems so simple, but without the catalyst for that change, without something to trigger it.. you just keep walking the same route .. it's normal, it's comfortable and.. you get used to it.





Love that analogy Bita, very well stated, thanks.



julietsierra -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 1:42:46 PM)

agirl: I can tell you what I've discovered about me so far and why it made me susceptable to this kind of behavior.

1. I am catholic. Now that is not a rationalization designed to pass blame. It's simply that within that religion, even if the family I was a part of didn't practice it all that devoutly, there is this set of beliefs that I was taught at a young age that said you marry and it's for life. I can't tell you how often I heard "you made your bed, now lay in it" when I was growing up. I was closer to my grandparents than to my parents so the groups of people I came more in contact with were those from an era in which divorces did NOT happen. My mother's parents divorced but it was a dirty secret that no one ever talked about. Hence, the messages I received were that you stuck with things, no matter what, and divorce is shameful

2. My parents were amazingly, blindingly, passionately in love with each other. Because of that, growing up, I saw more than my share of rip-roaring, knock down drag out fights. I also saw passionate love where one would be walking by the other and all of a sudden one of them would grab the other and embrace in passionate kisses - just because. So to me, relationships had all sorts of mean-ass fights, but husbands and wives loved as hard as they fought and it was all good.

3. I saw my mother put up with crap from my father that no woman would put up with these days. She did - with a smile on her face the entire time - except when she was crying - and then... see point 2. To this day, their favorite people in the whole world to be around is each other. So, when my husband and I began fighting, that's just the way things were. I'd been taught that very well.

4. This'll create a lot of flack, but it is part of it FOR ME. I am a submissive. My parents, as most parents, tried to instill in me this sense of independence and to not have a need for anyone in my life other than myself. My mother was VERY independent and VERY strong willed. She still is to this day. Unfortunately for me, and for her, she had a daughter that was not that way. She truly didn't know what to do with me. I *needed* people. Her choice was to take that need and challenge it. I was sent away often, with the hope that being away would someone "break" that need. Consequently, I grew up needing people even more and not wanting to let go when I finally had them. This is something I continue to struggle with. Additionally, because of her desire to see me be an independent person,  I was never taught how to differentiate between people who were good for me and people who weren't.

5. And I have to admit, there was a lot of the subtle abuse going on in my family as well. My dad was an only child and will admit today that he missed the joking around between brothers and sisters. When we came into this world (me, a mere 9 months to the day after they were married), I think what happened was that there was a lot of resentment of us being there as well as this idea that now he had someone to tease... and teasing was the name of the game. Sometimes, that teasing hit hard and if we broke down, it was an additional way of teasing. It still is with my children, but they have me there telling them how to handle what's going on. I didn't have that growing up.

6. Enough of blaming the folks. The solid fact is that I have a disturbing need of people in my life - for whatever reason that is. It took a long while of being divorced before I was comfortable in my house alone. I needed to be around people. This is something I've worked on for a long time now. It is still there, lurking under the surface, but in more appropriate measures. It surely wasn't there when I was married. How this played out in my marriage was that he could threaten to leave and I'd panic right then and there and do whatever he needed me to do in order to have him stay.

7. When we were just a year and a half into our marriage, we moved 1300 miles away from home to live in Texas. Isolation from family came easy then, cause every phone call home was an expense and I was perpetually homesick. All he had to do was let the phone go and I had no contact with my family. That means no input, no guidance, no nothing - and I was only 21 when I married. (Course, since the parents were "you made your bed, now lie in it" kind of folks, it wasn't as if I'd get a lot of support there.

8. I had children. I had no education. One of my children was disabled. That meant in order to pay her medical bills, have the surgeries she required, keep a roof over my other children's heads and food on the table, not to mention clothes on their backs, I was entirely dependent on my husband. Family was too far away to help even if they would have and there I was...

9. As I thought more about leaving, my husband began making comments in front of the kids about how, if we ever left, he wouldn't be able to take care of the dog, so he'd have to shoot him. Believe me, agirl, when your children are screaming next to you begging not to leave so the pet they love won't be killed, you make decisions you thought you'd never in your life ever make.

As I move farther and farther away from that time, I see things more clearly, but that's what I've worked out so far. Believe me, no one sits around dreaming when they're young children that "someday I'm going to marry a man and he's going to hurt me and treat me badly and maybe, just maybe, I'll be lucky enough to be afraid of him and what he'd do to our children."

Once I made up my mind to leave, I did what I had to do in a very methodical fashion so that I'd be as prepared as I could be for life on my own. Unfortunately, this meant that I made the decision to stay even longer while I finished my education. I wanted to be able to support myself and my children. I rationalized that some people got student loans to complete their education. I got beat up. Everyone pays somehow. However, this meant that I stayed 5 years longer than I should have in order to finish this. The damage this caused, both to me and my children was astronomical, but I made the best decision I could given the information I had at the time. I am paying the price now, but it was still worth it.

That's the best accounting I can give of my thought proesses back then. Like you, I don't know where that line is between those who will not put up with these things and those who will. I only know what side of the line I fall  on. I only know what I do now to help me live my life, grow out of my past and embrace my future. And I only know that regardless of what it takes, I'll do everything to make sure my children don't take this same path. (course, I guess it could be said that I'm doing it again if I am willing to do anything "regardless of what it takes.").

Hope that helps somehow.

juliet



Icarys -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 1:57:34 PM)

I'm sorry to hear things like this happen to people.

The first mistake I see is that you made an assumption that your family wouldn't help you based on your post. In that sense you didn't try a possible avenue and therefor you couldn't have known the truth.

I said earlier on that if something happened for the first time and then continued in one form or another I also would suggest for a female to get out. In your case it did continue and even escalated. Hitting is never good but it's different than saying a cross word one time and then not doing it again.



NuevaVida -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 2:21:00 PM)

Hey again .dark. 

I wasn't trying to say you were generalizing, per se, I was particularly struck by your comments about there being abuse in this thread, and there being a victim mentality, but in not expressly stating how/where you saw it.  Perhaps it was just your writing style and I didn't understand it, but the vagueness in which you said it seemed to be subtly accusing an unidentified group of being of being abusive.  I thought that kind of reference was unfair, but that's my own opinion which might not be shared by others. 

Regarding what you wrote here:
quote:



That is incorrect.  I find the entire thread heartbreaking.  I never stated at all that what 'you were saying is an example of abusive'.  I said I could also see abuse occuring during the thread, but that isn't specifically why the thread is heartbreaking.
 
the.dark.




I said "what we are saying" as in referencing the partcipants of this thread as a collective group.  "We" being the contributors of this thread...comprising this thread which you find to be heartbreaking.  The thread is only heartbreaking because of what is being contributed to it, and what is being contributed to it is by a group of people.  Hence, "we."

Not sure what you meant about not coming down on MR.  I wrote some pretty strong stuff to him, he did back at me, we moved forward, and there are no hard feelings.

I recognize it's hard to convey meaning and intention in a one-dimmensional communication mode such as writing.  I am willing to accept that I might be misunderstanding your words and your intentions, but they came across to me as disguised or vague jabs, which is why I wrote what I did.



NuevaVida -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 2:27:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

ETA: My only question is wanting to see how other's define "victim mentality."


This is a great question, bear.  I wonder that, also.  I've always considered victim mentality to be one in which someone does not take accountability for being in whatever situation they have been through (ie; I allowed my ex husband to treat me that way, and I need to be accountable for it, versus a woe is me, he did me wrong and I'll be fucked up forever because of it).  I haven't seen much of the latter here although I could have missed it.    So I am also interested in how other people define it.



GreedyTop -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 2:43:32 PM)

Nueva.. I'd have to agree with your definition.. that's how I view it as well.



agirl -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 2:46:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

There is obviously some reason why some people AREN'T susceptible to that type of abuse and some reason ( whatever that may be, I don't know what it is) why some people are.


For me, there was no other kind of behavior to compare. As far as I knew, yelling, hitting, throwing stuff, nasty names, and never seeming able to do anything right along with drug and alcohol abuse .. that was all normal. That's what 'everyone' did so when I jumped head first into an M/s relationship, the behavior patterns weren't all that different. There was still yelling, hitting, throwing stuff, nasty names and never being able to do anything right. Why walk away from something so normal? Why question something when you know that it's just a part of life and it's how everyone else lives, too?

A lot of times, until we get out and about, we don't realize how confined that space we call our world has been for us. The perspectives we bring into adult life can have a single lens and everything is seen through that single lens. If you add 2 + 2 and get 5, you're not going to erase it and work the problem again if you think you've already got the right answer. Everyone and their brother knows it supposed to be 4 .. but you weren't in school that day so didn't get the lesson that, hey, maybe something's a bit screwy here and I need to go back and check it out. You'll keep adding 2 + 2 and getting 5 until someone either points it out to you or you stop for a moment, let go of the old math you've always known and just count the damn numbers up on a couple of fingers. It seems so simple, but without the catalyst for that change, without something to trigger it.. you just keep walking the same route .. it's normal, it's comfortable and.. you get used to it.


Perhaps that's it then. I always thought, even as a small child that it was horrid to be a girl..(late 50's-60's). I couldn't work out at ALL why the women in my family did what they did or WHY they did it.  MUCH of it was just unfair and boring/dull.......As a small kid, all I decided was that I wouldn't be a girl. That wasn't terribly practical but worked well enough for a few years.

From the knee of my Mum and female members of the family, I thought that it was sheer horror that they couldn't go for a walk because it was * too close to dinner*. They didn't *seem* to be able to do all SORTS of things because of their gender and role.It was a hideously small world to be female.........and dull, dull, DULL.

I rejected it internally, with no obvious signs (no huge rebellion).....and quietly did what *I* wanted to.

I wasn't trodden down  for being massively different to my sisters and brothers.....My parents didn't understand me but I already knew that I didn't *understand* THEM, their relationship or why they lived the way they did. I was ultimately left alone to find my own ways. I'm quite thankful for that. My Dad was and is quite a bully, by much of the evidence cited here. He's a character..... no-one takes him seriously.........his bluster is predominantly out of love and fear for his kids. I found him an utter arse as a kid, but at 51, with a HELL of a lot of hindsight and experience, I appreciate all he tried to say and do, in his own crappy way...because his intentions were good and mostly out of sincere care.

I'm just as capable of being *abusive*..........maybe that's another difference. I can slam doors and bellow and to be frank, don't feel THAT badly about it. My kids, the same. I think I've behaved like an arse and so do they. None of us feel *abused*. The general  feeling is *  Golly, what's up?, Something is going on, I wonder what it is?*.

No, I can't or don't fully understand how a man , one man, could have the ability to isolate me from my family. This is probably to do with networks of some kind. It would be quite tricky to achieve in my family. A man , himself, isn't bigger or more important than other people in my life and he'd have to do a keen job of making that so......over a LOT of time..........and through a fair amount of questioning from the major players involved....including offspring.

agirl

















beargonewild -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 2:51:14 PM)

To answer my own question: I see "victim mentality" is being a behavioral crutch some people use that allows them to play the poor me role without taking some effort to allow themselves to heal and be able to move forward in their life.





LaTigresse -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 2:53:13 PM)

I have to wonder if it could be a way that bugs me on some weird level. Something I've always taken as being my problem and not that of the other person.

It's a sort of wearing their experience and survival as a badge of honour. The discussions appear to almost be a one-ups-manship. "oh you got xxx done to you? well I had xxx AND zzz!!!! And I survived!" (insert my perception of "aren't I special!?!")

Beyond the above reasons, I fear that some people make their survival such a huge part of who they are that they lose so much more. They make it their central defining characteristic that comes out in discussions where it isn't necessary. Or that they are so passionate about that experience, their experience, that they lose the ability to be open minded on many issues. It traps them and even though they see themselves as survivors, they are still being victimized by their past.



Kalista07 -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 3:17:00 PM)

"Or that they are so passionate about that experience, their experience, that they lose the ability to be open minded on many issues. It traps them and even though they see themselves as survivors, they are still being victimized by their past."

LaT....It's probably just a matter of semantics...........however, i see the above statement more as someone who is stuck in the survivor mentality and can not find a way to move beyond it to the "thriver" mode.

Kali



agirl -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 3:20:33 PM)

Julietsierra..... I know this is going to sound hideous.......but there are some things I'd do no matter HOW much my kids were screaming. As it happens, my children's father was the one *killed*....I can assure you that the death of a pet pales.

I don't have your background, history, upbringing etc. or the aspects of self that would make me care THAT much.....about my *man*.

So NO......... I have a totally different upbringing, I have children, my children have children and I give them the same advice I give myself....... If you don't mind it, see a future, it gives you something, then by all means go for it.  If the time comes when you are NOT happy, not content and wish to go.....then go.

I simply haven't placed enough weight on my parents, their choices and views , nor any man's to make me stay beyond the point where I don't think I've a fairly happy future. Or a decent present, actually.

There's a price to pay for many of our choices....I live with mine and it can be a bitch.

agirl

...but I haven't *been* everywhere other people have , so I *can't* understand* nor can I *know* what I'd do.







IronBear -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 3:23:31 PM)

Victim Mentality is usually seen in "Professional Victims" often craving for sympathy and attention. Because much of the suffering they have is psychosomatic with no relationship to reality both past and present (generally) it is still jolly hard to separate this from genuine suffering which they have or had. In any case it really is a case by case line call as to weather you intend to buy into their issues or back off.

If the truth be known, nearly all of us have suffered some form of subtle abuse or perceived subtle abuse in the past but didn't know it or accepted it as part of life (children can be included her because they perceive things and process them differently so that a parent who "blows his or her lid" for regular misbehavior can be in effect abusive though not intentionally). Again, I doubt seriously if there are any of us who haven't been guilty of subtle abuse and not so subtle abuse at one time or another even if in defense of self or in retaliation for a perceived wrong. Most wouldn't recognize their actions as being abusive..

I know I can and do at times come across as a bad tempered abusive sod. Usually both my back and knees are giving me merry hell and morphine isn't helping much and is till have to complete some building project about the house. As Neets can testify, I rarely become abusive, physically or verbally, towards others but towards the problem (knees and/or back) or towards the project etc. I am terse with people even after until I have settled into my chair or after a hot shower and am lighting my pipe with the physical stress lifting. Because I am aware, I usually try to keep a space between me and the rest of my family so they don't inadvertently receive any flack. 



Icarys -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 3:28:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Victim Mentality is usually seen in "Professional Victims" often craving for sympathy and attention. Because much of the suffering they have is psychosomatic with no relationship to reality both past and present (generally) it is still jolly hard to separate this from genuine suffering which they have or had. In any case it really is a case by case line call as to weather you intend to buy into their issues or back off.

If the truth be known, nearly all of us have suffered some form of subtle abuse or perceived subtle abuse in the past but didn't know it or accepted it as part of life (children can be included her because they perceive things and process them differently so that a parent who "blows his or her lid" for regular misbehavior can be in effect abusive though not intentionally). Again, I doubt seriously if there are any of us who haven't been guilty of subtle abuse and not so subtle abuse at one time or another even if in defense of self or in retaliation for a perceived wrong. Most wouldn't recognize their actions as being abusive..

I know I can and do at times come across as a bad tempered abusive sod. Usually both my back and knees are giving me merry hell and morphine isn't helping much and is till have to complete some building project about the house. As Neets can testify, I rarely become abusive, physically or verbally, towards others but towards the problem (knees and/or back) or towards the project etc. I am terse with people even after until I have settled into my chair or after a hot shower and am lighting my pipe with the physical stress lifting. Because I am aware, I usually try to keep a space between me and the rest of my family so they don't inadvertently receive any flack. 

Excellent words.



MasterHypnotist -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 3:58:38 PM)

No, I haven't read the pages of thread, I find the handling of the topic to be ironic. Ironic, in this case being a more polite word than amusing.

This is a BDSM site that celebrates the stylings, refinements and extensions of de Sade. Abuse, by any of its names, rationals, and practices is the norm. I am waiting to read a post from a submissive complaining that her Dominant gave her lovely roses, but there were no damnfucking thorns!

If you want to be in, searching for, or are in a relationship where intentional pain, restriction, or denial is a part of the lifestyle, then you're going to run into people who abuse. Count the cost. Ya in or are ya out?

To claim it's an environment which is the norm is a cop out. Unless a person is totally isolated from birth, they know there is "something" different out there. People who look forward to going home. People who don't cringe or fawn. People who don't ache and have bruises. People who don't make excuses for missing an event. People who say yes or no on the spur of the moment without consulting another. People who make mistakes and don't fear secondary consequences. Something, somewhere tells them that there are other lifestyles out there.

People recover from abuse all the time. Find a way to join them, try another way, and yet another, again and again until you succeed, or accept your lot for whatever reason(s) you choose (sometimes waiting IS the only option). But recovery means moving on to the best of your ability and refusing to re-enter a similar environment... which has its own cost. Ya in or are ya out?

If you celebrate your sufferings (wherever they came from) you'll continue to desire more to celebrate. It seems a rare and precious person who realizes that they are submissive, and yet realizes that they have every right to enjoy life, without intentional pain, restriction, or denial.

To be submissive or slave does not require imposed suffering, for any reason. Real life will dish that out to most people through circumstance and choices. In my opinion, there's no need to seek someone out to hurt you... even though there is are entertainment, fashion, and site, resource, or service providing resources dedicated to it.

I help people recover, stronger and more able. What do you do?

I will now accept the lack of responses, or replies that I just don't get it. There's always a cost. Ya in or are ya out?

MH



beargonewild -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 4:20:47 PM)

Seems to me the costs are being counted as we pursue this life which includes the kink and all it's trappings. The huge difference is the fact that for the most part we agree/consent to the pain, the restrictions and everything else that is part of this lifestyle. It because of this, I am able to consent or not which makes one hell of a difference in my eyes.
If this mode of thinking is skewed by other standards.....so be it
If all I believe and all I know is completely screwed up according to others...then so be it
If how I pay the price I pay is wrong.....so be it.
Because if I wasn't honestly ready to pay this price then I  might as well be dead. I know I pay some sort of cost with every little choice I make gladly pay because at least I am alive and living how I see fit for me.

eta: and while we are at it, might as well add the above costs to all my other lists of sins that I am paying for. This is not being snarky, this is the plain cold hard facts of life.



Kuurusx -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/28/2008 4:37:48 PM)

Well I believe that we are where we are because of choices we made not because of anyone else. I hear I am over weight because of ____ I am an alcoholic because of ___ and to me that is an excuse to continue that is like I am going to try to quit smoking try is an excuse if someone starts back and are asked the frist thing that comes out is I tried. Well this I know I am where I am because of the choices I made I had no choice in the gender the color or who was my parents. I was born to a whore and was left at the door of an orphanage at 6 weeks old because I was interfering with her life style. However after I grew some I found that I and only I could change me and the first step was to admit I had a problem.

So I think that if we are looking for someone to blame let's take a good long look at who is looking back at us in the mirror. Your Dom or your sub is not the reason you are where you are. You are the reason and you can not change them they have to want to first. In a relationship there are 4 things that has to be there for it to succeed: One Honesty, Two Trust, Three Communication and Four Respect. I had an 11 year relationship with a wonderful sub, however she asked to be released to go home and take care of sick parents. Her mother as sense pasted on and the dad is in Hospice. We have talked about getting back together and hope maybe we can.

If you are in a relationship were there are problems you need to get out of it and I totally believe the 4 things that it takes to make any kind of a relationship work. Now I also know that opinions are like butts, we all have one and sometime one of them stinks and this is just my opinion...



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