RE: Subtle Abuse

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Icarys -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 3:05:42 AM)
quote: When you start talking about how the death of one thing pales in comparison to the death of another, that is very much, competition - even if you'd like to say you weren't doing so. Good for you that threatening the death of an animal wouldn't stop you. Bad on me that it did huh? Enjoy your holier than thou place in life. Pray it doesn't bite you in the ass. juliet If she thinks the death of one pales to another why would it matter to you? Do you feel guilty in some manner for not leaving or do you think she is judging you for not doing so? I'm an animal lover so I hold animals up pretty close to people when it comes to a lot of things and higher in other respects but if it came to the animal or the safety of myself and my offspring I would choose the last two. Really my first option would be to do what's posted below. I would have simply taken the pet with me :>

RCdc -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 3:17:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I have to wonder if it could be a way that bugs me on some weird level. Something I've always taken as being my problem and not that of the other person. It's a sort of wearing their experience and survival as a badge of honour. The discussions appear to almost be a one-ups-manship. "oh you got xxx done to you? well I had xxx AND zzz!!!! And I survived!" (insert my perception of "aren't I special!?!") Beyond the above reasons, I fear that some people make their survival such a huge part of who they are that they lose so much more. They make it their central defining characteristic that comes out in discussions where it isn't necessary. Or that they are so passionate about that experience, their experience, that they lose the ability to be open minded on many issues. It traps them and even though they see themselves as survivors, they are still being victimized by their past. I completely agree with this and is what I was trying to say - obviously I failed[:D]. Some people get so wrapped up in their survival and the fact that they were once a victim, everything else falls pales. And then that same person makes subtle comments that could be seen as abusive when you suggest that someone else tells them how they disagree and yet, they have no concept that it might be abusive because they are still wrapped up in their own survival. It's like wearing blinkers. the.dark.

julietsierra -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 3:18:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys quote: When you start talking about how the death of one thing pales in comparison to the death of another, that is very much, competition - even if you'd like to say you weren't doing so. Good for you that threatening the death of an animal wouldn't stop you. Bad on me that it did huh? Enjoy your holier than thou place in life. Pray it doesn't bite you in the ass. juliet If she thinks the death of one pales to another why would it matter to you? Do you feel guilty in some manner for not leaving or do you think she is judging you for not doing so? I'm an animal lover so I hold animals up pretty close to people when it comes to a lot of things and higher in other respects but if it came to the animal or the safety of myself and my offspring I would choose the last two. Really my first option would be to do what's posted below. I would have simply taken the pet with me :> They don't take pets in shelters. We tried. No family. No friends. No money, and a child who was dependent on medical equipment at the time, so staying in a car wasn't a viable option. Well, I shouldn't say no friends. I had friends. I just had no friends who weren't worried that he'd come to their house and hurt THEIR families. They also weren't prepared to take in someone with three kids and a dog who had no money and no job (my daughter at the time, took full time care) And the truth is, he wasn't physically hurting the kids, so right or wrong, the rationalization at the time became cold-hearted. What do I need to get out? What do I need to be able to care for my kids? What is the best way to get it? The answers were to stay, get my butt in school; deal with what he did as best I could; finish my degree so that I could provide for them; and THEN, leave. Get help for the kids once I'm out and if I can, get help for me. That's what I did. Might not have been right, but when you don't see any other doors, you take the one you see. juliet

RCdc -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 3:26:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear Victim Mentality is usually seen in "Professional Victims" often craving for sympathy and attention. Because much of the suffering they have is psychosomatic with no relationship to reality both past and present (generally) it is still jolly hard to separate this from genuine suffering which they have or had. In any case it really is a case by case line call as to weather you intend to buy into their issues or back off. If the truth be known, nearly all of us have suffered some form of subtle abuse or perceived subtle abuse in the past but didn't know it or accepted it as part of life (children can be included her because they perceive things and process them differently so that a parent who "blows his or her lid" for regular misbehavior can be in effect abusive though not intentionally). Again, I doubt seriously if there are any of us who haven't been guilty of subtle abuse and not so subtle abuse at one time or another even if in defense of self or in retaliation for a perceived wrong. Most wouldn't recognize their actions as being abusive.. I know I can and do at times come across as a bad tempered abusive sod. Usually both my back and knees are giving me merry hell and morphine isn't helping much and is till have to complete some building project about the house. As Neets can testify, I rarely become abusive, physically or verbally, towards others but towards the problem (knees and/or back) or towards the project etc. I am terse with people even after until I have settled into my chair or after a hot shower and am lighting my pipe with the physical stress lifting. Because I am aware, I usually try to keep a space between me and the rest of my family so they don't inadvertently receive any flack. Brilliant post Bear. And as for the question of Victim Mentality, what you wrote is pretty much how I define it. If it gets sympathy and attention which the person desires. the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 3:30:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra Well, I shouldn't say no friends. I had friends. I just had no friends who weren't worried that he'd come to their house and hurt THEIR families. They also weren't prepared to take in someone with three kids and a dog who had no money and no job (my daughter at the time, took full time care) juliet I wanted to respond to this and meh I might get booed for it. But honestly, then they weren't friends. the.dark.

julietsierra -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 3:33:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra Well, I shouldn't say no friends. I had friends. I just had no friends who weren't worried that he'd come to their house and hurt THEIR families. They also weren't prepared to take in someone with three kids and a dog who had no money and no job (my daughter at the time, took full time care) juliet I wanted to respond to this and meh I might get booed for it. But honestly, then they weren't friends. the.dark. Right. But honestly dark, whether they were friends who wouldn't help or not friends at all, it didn't change my circumstance at all in the situation I was in. juliet

sirsholly -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 3:35:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra Well, I shouldn't say no friends. I had friends. I just had no friends who weren't worried that he'd come to their house and hurt THEIR families. They also weren't prepared to take in someone with three kids and a dog who had no money and no job (my daughter at the time, took full time care) juliet I wanted to respond to this and meh I might get booed for it. But honestly, then they weren't friends. the.dark. Boo. I was in this position. My husband was at work and my son was an infant. Taking her into my home was a risk i could not take with a baby to protect. Arrangememts were made for her to be taken to a hotel for the night in a distant area.

julietsierra -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 3:40:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra Well, I shouldn't say no friends. I had friends. I just had no friends who weren't worried that he'd come to their house and hurt THEIR families. They also weren't prepared to take in someone with three kids and a dog who had no money and no job (my daughter at the time, took full time care) juliet I wanted to respond to this and meh I might get booed for it. But honestly, then they weren't friends. the.dark. Boo. I was in this position. My husband was at work and my son was an infant. Taking her into my home was a risk i could not take with a baby to protect. Arrangememts were made for her to be taken to a hotel for the night in a distant area. I understood that position. I also was still caught up in the throes of "this is a problem of my own making. I can't depend on anyone else to help me" - more of that "you made your own bed, now lie in it" mentality I'd grown up with. juliet

RCdc -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 3:43:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra Right. But honestly dark, whether they were friends who wouldn't help or not friends at all, it didn't change my circumstance at all in the situation I was in. juliet I simply don't get the mentality where someone would belive that they were your friend, yet not be there when you really need them. We have a threadful of people, listing advice on what to do, where to go, how to identify abuse, how to deal with it, how they dealt with it... and one single person who couldn't find one single friend to open their doors to someone whom they called friend and her family who was in an abusive situation. The thing is it could have and might have changed the situation... no one has no way of knowing that - if you were at the point you wanted to leave. Your scenario, to me, only affirms my idea that most people are on the whole more talk than action. the.dark.

julietsierra -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 3:48:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys quote: When you start talking about how the death of one thing pales in comparison to the death of another, that is very much, competition - even if you'd like to say you weren't doing so. Good for you that threatening the death of an animal wouldn't stop you. Bad on me that it did huh? Enjoy your holier than thou place in life. Pray it doesn't bite you in the ass. juliet If she thinks the death of one pales to another why would it matter to you? Do you feel guilty in some manner for not leaving or do you think she is judging you for not doing so? Yes, I think she very much IS judging those of us who didn't do as she'd do. I also think she's getting off on watching us attempt to explain the inexplicable. Crazy-making behavior creates crazy-making mindsets, and when you live with someone who engages in crazy-making behavior, you tend to react in less than rational ways as well. I think the best any of us who have stayed in situations like this can do is attempt to explain where we were at that time. Chances are we'd do things vastly differently now, but at the time, we did what we thought was right - dysfunctionally since we were immersed in a very dysfunctional situation. But pointing out how SHE would have done things differently does not change the fact that we did things to the best of our abilities at the time given the circumstances we were in. Pointing out how SHE would have done things in those situations, having never been in those situations is akin to the judgmental views of the childless on how THEY would have done things differently if it'd have been THEIR child. Yes, she is being extremely judgmental. juliet

RCdc -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 3:48:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly Boo. Love ya too.[:D] quote: I was in this position. My husband was at work and my son was an infant. Taking her into my home was a risk i could not take with a baby to protect. Arrangememts were made for her to be taken to a hotel for the night in a distant area. Ah, but there is the difference, you were still proactive in making arrangements. You still did something. That wasn't the inital scenario presented. the.dark.

julietsierra -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 3:52:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra Right. But honestly dark, whether they were friends who wouldn't help or not friends at all, it didn't change my circumstance at all in the situation I was in. juliet I simply don't get the mentality where someone would belive that they were your friend, yet not be there when you really need them. We have a threadful of people, listing advice on what to do, where to go, how to identify abuse, how to deal with it, how they dealt with it... and one single person who couldn't find one single friend to open their doors to someone whom they called friend and her family who was in an abusive situation. The thing is it could have and might have changed the situation... no one has no way of knowing that - if you were at the point you wanted to leave. Your scenario, to me, only affirms my idea that most people are on the whole more talk than action. the.dark. lol.. of COURSE they are! Why do you think this stuff we've been talking about is so able to continue and is so darn rampant? It exists precisely BECAUSE people are more talk than action. If we'd lived closer to home, my folks might have believed what was happening, and my father, who has his good and bad points, is no slouch when it comes to someone hurting his family (that he hurt us wouldn't have occurred to him - to him, he was just teasing), would have been there in a second (probably dragging me out by my ear if I would actually tell him I didn't want to go - but be clear, I would have gone.) but I was 1300 miles away from the nearest person I could call family. juliet

Icarys -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 3:53:56 AM)
quote: Yes, I think she very much IS judging those of us who didn't do as she'd do. I also think she's getting off on watching us attempt to explain the inexplicable. Crazy-making behavior creates crazy-making mindsets, and when you live with someone who engages in crazy-making behavior, you tend to react in less than rational ways as well. I think the best any of us who have stayed in situations like this can do is attempt to explain where we were at that time. Chances are we'd do things vastly differently now, but at the time, we did what we thought was right - dysfunctionally since we were immersed in a very dysfunctional situation. But pointing out how SHE would have done things differently does not change the fact that we did things to the best of our abilities at the time given the circumstances we were in. Pointing out how SHE would have done things in those situations, having never been in those situations is akin to the judgmental views of the childless on how THEY would have done things differently if it'd have been THEIR child. Yes, she is being extremely judgmental. juliet I think maybe that makes a little sense to me. I don't think she's getting off on it..Now some here I would say yes but not her in this case. I also don't think she was judging you either but as I've posted in my still not approved post..It's up to us how we perceive things and then react. I posted what I would have done but you didn't say I was judging you or at least you didn't seem to be offended by it.

julietsierra -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 4:01:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra Well, I shouldn't say no friends. I had friends. I just had no friends who weren't worried that he'd come to their house and hurt THEIR families. They also weren't prepared to take in someone with three kids and a dog who had no money and no job (my daughter at the time, took full time care) juliet I wanted to respond to this and meh I might get booed for it. But honestly, then they weren't friends. the.dark. Boo. I was in this position. My husband was at work and my son was an infant. Taking her into my home was a risk i could not take with a baby to protect. Arrangememts were made for her to be taken to a hotel for the night in a distant area. So here's my question... what happened after that night in a hotel? What happened to her from there? Where did she go? Just what happened? Cause getting out for the night helps for the night. But after that, what next? How did she STAY out? That's what I couldn't see and if I left, I wanted to make sure I didn't go back. I'd already tried to leave a number of times and each time that I went back, the situation was exponentially worse. Finally, I gave up leaving without a plan and began to work my plan. It took time and during that time, we went through tons more stuff, but at least I had a plan. I graduated, then started looking for and stockpiling money, and then, when he was away on a business trip (we were actually being transferred to another state and he was already working there) and had left me money to handle things at home, I filed for divorce. It took 5 years from the decision to stay and work through my plan. During that time, my daughter stopped being dependant on medical equipment, our family acquired a larger car (I'd pressed for a suburban - because "we have a bigger family now dear." - it would hold more of our belongings when we left and was far more dependable than the car I had), and I'd made application to places to work back here in Michigan. My folks were willing to help pay for my school but were not necessarily willing to pay for me to just leave. Once I got my degree and interviewed and GOT the job back here, they were willing to help us move home and they did. But it took me pushing myself in the situation I was in, to be better for things to change. I would never follow that line of thinking with my own kids, but that's what they did. Chastizing them for not helping me get out after the fact doesn't change anything. juliet

sirsholly -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 4:10:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra So here's my question... what happened after that night in a hotel? What happened to her from there? Where did she go? Just what happened? Cause getting out for the night helps for the night. But after that, what next? How did she STAY out? That's what I couldn't see and if I left, I wanted to make sure I didn't go back. I'd already tried to leave a number of times and each time that I went back, the situation was exponentially worse. Finally, I gave up leaving without a plan and began to work my plan. It took time and during that time, we went through tons more stuff, but at least I had a plan. I graduated, then started looking for and stockpiling money, and then, when he was away on a business trip (we were actually being transferred to another state and he was already working there) and had left me money to handle things at home, I filed for divorce. i highlighted the part about a plan because it is so important!!! With no plan, most abused persons will just return. As to the women i mentioned...she too had no plan, so we made one for her. Legal moves (a protction order, etc) were handled the following day by us (she just went through the motions and signed her name) and plane tickets for her and the children were bought, clothes were given to them, and they went to her parents home where she could get her head together. A very sad end to the story: he was killed in a traffic accident along with his teenage son about a month later.

julietsierra -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 4:26:33 AM)
holly: I call this crap we deal with the club who never seeks out members but gets them daily. It's a BIG club - a HUGE club. A priest once told me that back then, that the statistics were that 1 in 3 women are abused daily in this COUNTRY - not world, but country. I don't know where the stats came from or if they are correct, but that's a club with a HUGE membership. And that doesn't even include the men, whose numbers are traditionally vastly underreported. We who are members of this club pray we will get no new members, but the numbers keep growing. I'm betting that as the economy dives, the membership in our club will be growing in leaps and bounds, as will the numbers in our "sister club" the ranks of children who are abused. What a sad ending to your friend's life. But thanks for helping her get out. Very few people understand that when someone comes out of situations like your friend had, they are all too often the walking wounded. Very few walk away, shoulders squared, head up, ready to meet a new day. Most of us just want to get through the next few hours. We can't even begin to think of the next day, week, month or year. It takes someone who is willing to pick up the reigns for a moment, make decisions and act on them to get people the help they need. Thanks. juliet

mistoferin -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 4:53:38 AM)
Yesterday I spent a lot of time thinking about this thread and trying to examine my own behavior and motivations. I ended up writing this huge post here this morning and just before I posted it I refreshed and read a few of the last pages. Then I hit delete. I realized that this thread is indeed heartbreaking....and nauseating. I realized that there was no way to post what I had written, no matter how much clarity I thought it may bring to some, without getting covered in more shit. I wouldn't be explaining at this point...I'd be doing what others on here are doing at this point....defending themselves. I don't need to defend myself for being vulnerable. I don't need to defend myself for having the capacity to love. I don't need to defend myself for being a less than perfect being with all the answers. I am seeing people asking the age old questions of why. I see people trying to explain why. But the truth is that there are some who will never understand. The truth is that there are some who don't ever want to understand. Because to understand would also mean that they would have to admit that they too are vulnerable. That they are not immune. That it could happen to them too. And that's some scary shit. Maybe that vulnerability is what others see in a survivor. Maybe that is why it appears we carry this with us long after we are standing on our own. Because, unlike those who have never been there, we can't deny it. We have to live out the rest of our days with the knowledge that we are vulnerable. It would be a lot easier to think otherwise. But why did you?.....But why didn't you?.....If it were me I would have.... But it wasn't you, and I will say it again...until it is you, you have no way of knowing what you would do, how you would feel, how you would react. But if it comforts you somehow to think that you know....more power to you....and I truly and sincerely hope that you never have to find out just how wrong on that one you are. Instead of just saying that they're glad you found your way out....no matter how long it took....or no matter what had to happen on the path to getting there. Instead of listening to their stories and saying thank you for sharing that, maybe someone will see light as a result of hearing it....maybe someone will recognize what is happening earlier and won't have to go through that...maybe someone will reach their hand out and help pull someone up who is down. Nope....because then they would have to admit that it could just as easily be them. That way they can stay smarter and stronger....even if it is an illusion.

RCdc -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 4:58:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra lol.. of COURSE they are! Why do you think this stuff we've been talking about is so able to continue and is so darn rampant? It exists precisely BECAUSE people are more talk than action. Which is exactly what I got questioned about stating. the.dark.

julietsierra -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 6:41:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Yesterday I spent a lot of time thinking about this thread and trying to examine my own behavior and motivations. I ended up writing this huge post here this morning and just before I posted it I refreshed and read a few of the last pages. Then I hit delete. I realized that this thread is indeed heartbreaking....and nauseating. I realized that there was no way to post what I had written, no matter how much clarity I thought it may bring to some, without getting covered in more shit. I wouldn't be explaining at this point...I'd be doing what others on here are doing at this point....defending themselves. I don't need to defend myself for being vulnerable. I don't need to defend myself for having the capacity to love. I don't need to defend myself for being a less than perfect being with all the answers. I am seeing people asking the age old questions of why. I see people trying to explain why. But the truth is that there are some who will never understand. The truth is that there are some who don't ever want to understand. Because to understand would also mean that they would have to admit that they too are vulnerable. That they are not immune. That it could happen to them too. And that's some scary shit. Maybe that vulnerability is what others see in a survivor. Maybe that is why it appears we carry this with us long after we are standing on our own. Because, unlike those who have never been there, we can't deny it. We have to live out the rest of our days with the knowledge that we are vulnerable. It would be a lot easier to think otherwise. But why did you?.....But why didn't you?.....If it were me I would have.... But it wasn't you, and I will say it again...until it is you, you have no way of knowing what you would do, how you would feel, how you would react. But if it comforts you somehow to think that you know....more power to you....and I truly and sincerely hope that you never have to find out just how wrong on that one you are. Instead of just saying that they're glad you found your way out....no matter how long it took....or no matter what had to happen on the path to getting there. Instead of listening to their stories and saying thank you for sharing that, maybe someone will see light as a result of hearing it....maybe someone will recognize what is happening earlier and won't have to go through that...maybe someone will reach their hand out and help pull someone up who is down. Nope....because then they would have to admit that it could just as easily be them. That way they can stay smarter and stronger....even if it is an illusion. yup.. and as they attempt to perpetuate the myth that they are smarter and stronger, they are actually engaging in exactly what this thread was entitled with - subtle abuse. Cause every time they have to put themselves out there as somehow being stronger and smarter, there's always the unspoken "than you." Which is exactly subtle abuse. It's ok to ask questions, to attempt to understand, but when time and again, the information as we know it, is given, to lambast it once again.. it is exactly the same tactics employed by the subtle abusers out there. "You're weak, you're stupid, you're worthless, you don't have the guts or the stamina to have kept yourselves out of whatever mess you found yourself in. Look at ME. I can't imagine MY kids falling for that crap.." and so on and so on and so on. It wasn't until I took a breath and started examining how I was feeling with regards to those coments that I recognized with startling clarity that these were the EXACT same feelings I used to have when I would attempt to combat the comments of "you're stupid, you should count youself lucky to have me, no one would want you" that I used to face. And I realized... what was being said in this thread by some folks was exactly the same things that used to be said in the life I struggled to get out of. So that's it. Subtle abuse is pervasive. It starts with fear - fear of being open, fear of being vulnerable, fear of some perception of weakness. It cloaks itself in perceptions of righteous and often indignant perfection and allows no one a margin of error in their choices, in who they love, in their lives. I'm simply not that perfect. But I sure do like me the way I am. juliet

NuevaVida -> RE: Subtle Abuse (12/29/2008 7:14:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Instead of just saying that they're glad you found your way out....no matter how long it took....or no matter what had to happen on the path to getting there. Instead of listening to their stories and saying thank you for sharing that, maybe someone will see light as a result of hearing it....maybe someone will recognize what is happening earlier and won't have to go through that...maybe someone will reach their hand out and help pull someone up who is down. Nope....because then they would have to admit that it could just as easily be them. That way they can stay smarter and stronger....even if it is an illusion. Great post, Erin. I am now among those who find this thread heartbreaking, only for different reasons than others originally stated. I'm watching people defend the decisions they made under extremely stressful conditions when they were just trying to survive. I'm seeing others throw statements of "I wouldn't have done that" and "People just have a victim mentality" and "People are being abusive in return" without providing any real substance (that I can see) behind the words. Perhaps it is because people don't understand the internal dread of being alive, the absolute panic of what the next step will be, the grief of feeling rejected by the ones who "should" be loving you...that they don't understand why people make the decisions they do while in that situation. And on the other flip of the coin, those who are recovering from abusive situations get tired of having to explain, defend, and try to be understood, because it can bring back some old emotions of having to constantly defend themselves to their partners. Quite honestly, some of the comments made in the last few pages, by agirl and .dark. made me really sad. I remember when I left my husband, he kept saying he didn't understand why I left. He couldn't support my divorcing him because he didn't understand. He was the complete victim because, in his eyes, he was a saintly husband whose wife up and left and wouldn't explain to him why. That's the story he still tells people. I spent almost 2 years trying to help him understand (what can I say, I'm a die hard) until I realized he will never understand. God could strike him over the head with the truths of all things in this world, and he would not understand. So I stopped talking. I realized it was no longer my job to get him to understand. It was my job to move forward with my life, recover from the abuse, and be happy. I'll just say this - talking about what happened in the past does not automatically indicate a victim mentality. I saw several people here (myself included) describe what a victim mentality is, and I haven't seen evidence of anyone spouting "woe is me, I'll never get over this" views. Most people tell their story in an attempt to help the people who don't understand, understand. Or to offer a path of knowledge to someone who might be in such a situation without knowing where to turn. I haven't seen anyone's story here reflect a view that things will never get better, or that they are not working on moving forward in life, or that they haven't done a lot of work on themselvs already. And just because you (generically) wouldn't respond to abuse the way someone else has, doesn't mean what they did was wrong, or weak, or condemable. It means we are all different souls here on this planet, doing the best we can, and we're going to do things differently in dire situations. Making someone feel wrong for the decisions they made doesn't help them move forward and doesn't support them as fellow human beings who are seeking happiness. And that's what makes me sad here.

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