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Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 3:33:22 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Any thoughts?

Prompts for those in need:

1) Which of the two is most important in order to maximise a peaceful co-existence?

2) What is the best means of order/organisation to maximise liberty?

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 4:23:42 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		....the one that has the most % of people that have quiet enjoyment of their property.

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 4:38:28 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

....the one that has the most % of people that have quiet enjoyment of their property.



Order?

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 4:58:00 AM   
colouredin


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Status: offline 		We talk about something simplar, care vrs control. The problem is you have to balance both in this type of society. What normally happens in that instance though is the control comes from the top, the organisation which makes institutions in their very nature controling and the care in one to one and personal. Same is true of control vrs liberty, the control is the backbone of everything, our liberty is superficial.

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 5:12:21 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Same is true of control vrs liberty, the control is the backbone of everything, our liberty is superficial.



I'd certainly agree that order is a constant in the modern world. Perhaps you can spot a trend of increasing civil liberties?

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 5:13:02 AM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

....the one that has the most % of people that have quiet enjoyment of their property.



Order?


the question varies urban/rural. 

urban need more order.   rural -some rural, needs more liberty.

in 92, when the burned down watts,  that benefited none of the residents.  so in that case more order.  on the flip side the police taser way too many people.  ....

smash your tv.   90% of the world is what you deal with when you do your errands.  all politics are local.  for the most part, my neck of the woods works.  (for me..better then any other)

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 5:16:54 AM   
colouredin


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Status: offline 		I dunno I dont think that we can state who needs what more actually, the way it works where we live isnt ness the best way its just the way that it is. Maybe the whole system that we live in is wrong. I think the order thing is a problem, if you rely on something then you come to accept it as needed without looking at other avenues. Our whole exsistance is based on accepting the status quo. 'oh well thats just life' is said far too often, we put up with stuff and dont challange it. I dont agree with Pahunk that anywhere needs more order than anywhere else, not really, i think areas have grown to need it for loads of reasons, the economy of the area etc but actually do they need it? Probably not, it would take thinking outside of the box though, re-education and all the stuff that generally people cant be arsed with 'for an easy life'

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 5:32:03 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

urban need more order.   rural -some rural, needs more liberty.



Perhaps at face value by virtue of population density. I'd estimate, however, that rural areas hold law and order in the same regard; within urban areas, it's a case of a greater number of incidents of crime as a consequence of greater numbers of people living in an area. As you mentioned in your initial post, people want comfort that their property will be protected - whether or not they are living in urban areas.

Going back to the OP, let's assume your rural and liberty link has substance - are you saying liberty has been maximised due to a lack of order? How does this function in terms of maintaining order?

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 6:11:33 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		Well NG,

Rural - ( as in the valley that I live ) has a mindset- of "we dont want it".  we dont want ANYTHING.  the problem with that is, we say no to progress which could help the area. not all progress is bad.  burn barrels for household garbage come to mind. most towns have burned in the past, and consider this a "right".  but population has grown, the wherewithall to test barrel ashes for plastic residue is nil.  to many tho- the fumes are not orderly.   "they" are so sure they have this "right", yet, even tho they know they burn plastics and THAT part of it is illegal, there is no compliance.  

it is a question of paying for garbage pick up.  wich cost $3.50 for a 20 gallon bag.

but throw out your garbage, say at the gas station, they find mail, get your adress, you get a $200 fine....  yet hardly anyone is ever cited for burning.

lets take speeding tix.  $160 to an executive vs $160 to a gas station clerk.  the punishment is not really proportionate.

people talk about marshall law, like we would all be doomed.  but in many situation it is a mixed bag. 

I think the important thing is, a people should ALWAYS question authority.  I dont mean to act nasty...I mean the entire grid should be questioned all the time.

We live in an era of great folly.

9-11 ..bureacrats that dropped the ball promoted.   everything since 9-11 do a bad job, get rewarded.   do the right thing..get stepped on.

the peasants will revolt.      a top heavy system will push until it toples.

that day is with in our life time.    ....hopefully you have gold/silver/platimun in hand......

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 7:18:27 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		One doesnt need liberty to have order, but one requires order for liberty to exist.

Liberty without order is chaos, whilst order without liberty is repression.

The best model is one in which the population is self ordering, by way of innate values and morals which could be derived from a religious / philosophical / political thoughtform; of these, religion is the most likely model to succeed according to historical precedence, and also the most likely to succeed given its adaptability to suit all levels of understanding in a society. However, even such a self ordering requires some level of repression to produce order, albeit inner self repression rather than repression by way of third parties from without such as is normally understood to represent repression.

E

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 7:26:49 AM   
Aneirin


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Status: offline 		I am inclined to think that liberty is the way to go, but liberty cannot be got without order, so a healthy, flexible system of a balance of the two should be maintained, so that there is liberty in order and order in liberty. Can order and liberty not be combined  and not be chaos ?

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 7:37:22 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		        North, did you find yourself talking to policemen about how many pints you'd had?

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 7:46:12 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Going back to the OP, let's assume your rural and liberty link has substance - are you saying liberty has been maximised due to a lack of order? How does this function in terms of maintaining order?


Maintaining Order becomes (again, like it Used to be) the Personal Responcibility of each individual - they are responcible for maintaining order on their own property, for protecting themselves against those who would disrupt that order, and for paying the consequences directly at the hands of their neighbor if they disrupt someone Else's peaceful, orderly enjoyment of their own property.
 
In order to have Liberty, we must be willing to Accept personal responcibility.  Our society frowns on those who would Prefer to take Personal Responcibility - rather than foisting that responcibility - for their safety, their liberty, their sucess or failure, their well being, their happiness - onto some external source, such as the Government.

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 8:45:05 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Any thoughts?

Prompts for those in need:

1) Which of the two is most important in order to maximise a peaceful co-existence?

2) What is the best means of order/organisation to maximise liberty?

Liberty, because order is antithetical to peace.  Order, being an external imposition, is the beginning of violence.  "Orderly" societies have rarely been able to peacefully coexist with anybody.

The best means of order/organization to maximize liberty is one which endows the individual with supreme political power, and where his interest in sustaining a body politic is grounded in his own individual self-interest (especially economically through property and business ownership).


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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 9:07:22 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
Liberty, because order is antithetical to peace.  Order, being an external imposition, is the beginning of violence.  "Orderly" societies have rarely been able to peacefully coexist with anybody.

The best means of order/organization to maximize liberty is one which endows the individual with supreme political power, and where his interest in sustaining a body politic is grounded in his own individual self-interest (especially economically through property and business ownership).



Yet unconfined liberty must sooner or later result in violence and the imposition of order by the stronger over the weaker; an order deriving right from might rather than might from right?

But agreed with the endowment of supreme political power to the person and referring back to HGP's post, the requirement for personal responsibility should personal liberty be desired. Yet even here, the stronger will always impose an order which seeks the aims of the stronger over the weaker.

In the end, we need a guarantor for our personal liberty which surpasses the power of others to reduce it. The weak especially need this guarantor, and the strong need to fear it in order for them not to impinge upon or define the liberty of the weak.

Such is the rightful role of God, King, Law - sources of order which are not defined by the changing roles and powers of the actors within a society, and not reliant on their favour. That such have been lost, abandoned or undermined has left us with Government as the arbiter of liberty and order - Government which is lacking in the requisite credentials since it is strongly defined by the actors and reliant on them.

It is a difficult balance which only performs well if all participants fulfil their roles properly - which of course means personal responsibility, or put another way, self repression to produce order which then guarantees liberty.....

E

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 9:16:52 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Yet unconfined liberty must sooner or later result in violence and the imposition of order by the stronger over the weaker; an order deriving right from might rather than might from right?

The strong dominate the weak without regard to liberty.  That is the order of things.

Liberty gives the weak the chance to be strong, if they so desire.


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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 9:31:14 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		My Grandfather said "your rights end where mine begin". I have nothing with which to argue against that. I believe that through logical  deduction we find that while liberty and order are almost diametric opposites, there is a symbiotic relationship, like that of a proton and an electron in an atom.

Demographics have alot to do with it, consider the movie "Five", where all but five people on Earth (supposedly) were left alive after some sort of holocaust. You basically can own one fifth of the world. But what did these people do ? Seek out other possible survivors.

I think humans seek to come together in tribes and whatever forms of society for the same reason as some animals run in packs. There is a benefit to ceding some of that absolute freedom to gain acceptance into the pack, or whatever.

Like you could no more define good if there was no evil, or black if there was no white, order and liberty are in a way two polarities of the forces which quell the chaos that would otherwise ensue.

Liberty might exist if you live alone on an island. Order has not been known to exist, even in Singapore where you can go to jail for spitting on the sidewalk. There is a balance somewhere in between.

No matter what that balance is, it is never going to please everyone, at least not at this point in history.

T

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 9:34:31 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Yet unconfined liberty must sooner or later result in violence and the imposition of order by the stronger over the weaker; an order deriving right from might rather than might from right?

The strong dominate the weak without regard to liberty.  That is the order of things.

Liberty gives the weak the chance to be strong, if they so desire.



Then we must conclude that order is the product of the liberty to impose violence on others and nothing more. And from that, there is no true liberty but partial liberty as it is correlated with the ability to successfully use violence to curtail the liberties of others. And from that, order is nothing more than the continued successful application of violence, and has no regard for right.

E

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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 12:44:52 PM   
Lorr47


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quote:

The strong dominate the weak without regard to liberty. That is the order of things.


But, when "the weak inherit the earth" what happens to the strong?




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RE: Order and Liberty - 1/4/2009 12:52:42 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

quote:

The strong dominate the weak without regard to liberty. That is the order of things.


But, when "the weak inherit the earth" what happens to the strong?

The weak inherit the earth because they will be buried in it.....by the strong.

And when the strong fail and falter, they will become weak and thus similarly will be interred, again by the strong.


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