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RE: is it a rarity - 1/9/2009 2:22:03 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		Chuck me into the daily rituals column. 

Morning spankings
Evening greeting kneeling and kissing my feet
Nightly chaining/caging

I agree that the daily ritual people don't seem more common than the weekly ritual gang but I think we represent more than 10% of the total.

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I give good thread.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: is it a rarity - 1/9/2009 2:32:02 PM   
Ph0enixF1re


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


I personally found the post to be more damaging to relationships and very destructive to building successful long-term dynamics.  I do not agree with much of what this post is stating.  I find that the whole post is laying blame at the Male Dominant's feet for failures of D/s or M/s Dynamics in a great majority of failed relationships.  Which has been far from my experience!  I have found relationships have failed because individuals stop giving to the relationship and  no one has the monopoly for that failure.

Lastly... I have been in a relationship with Alandra for over 20 years and not only do I not understand nor do I agree with this romantic notion that the Dominant is the driver of the entire relationship.  I have found that relationships that take on this mindset are the quickest to fail on average.  People enter into relationships together and each person contributes to the dynamic... All of them drive and motivate the relationship to move forward.  All of the individuals in the relationship have something at stake and have a role to play.  When any individual in the dynamic stops giving to the relationship it is on path of doom!  You can't dance with someone if they choose not to dance.. who is leading is irrelevant to that.  Successful relationships are those that have individuals that are making the conscious decision to dance to the music that they all enjoy!


KoM,
Your system works, obviously, but you may have just won the Irish Sweepstakes in your relationship with Alandra.  Both empirical and anecdotal evidence suggests that yours is the exception.  The point is that often "laid back" is seen as complacency and an unwillingness to give to the relationship.  Which eventually equals doom by your own statement.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: is it a rarity - 1/9/2009 2:36:02 PM   
Ph0enixF1re


Posts: 91
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline 		Yes, there are a million reasons that a relationship can go wrong, provided that it is progressing randomly.  But if the Dominant is leading (as they should) then many of the unruly branches of the bush are pruned before they are ever allowed to flourish.

Chalking it up to "well, shit happens" is just deflecting responsibility and accountability.

(in reply to JustDarkness)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: is it a rarity - 1/9/2009 2:36:24 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Submissive personalities respond to dominant personalities and every girl I have dated or been with has started off with that basic connection between us.

Now, to what degree they submit and to what degree they obey, is another story. "Hand over your bank account numbers and pin numbers" is in a completely different bracket then "Wear a black dress and don't wear too much makeup when you come and have dinner with me on Wednesday."

It's politcally correct to say "I just don't submit or allow myself to be bossed around by anyone I just meet", but there is varying degrees of submissions and obedience.


And there are varying degrees of dominance as well.  Sometimes a submissive will submit to the extent that she's being dominated.

GR:

I find it almost impossible to stay in a submissive mindset if I have nothing to submit TO.  I was in a relationship where the guy was all gung-ho dom in the beginning, and it really drew me at first, but once the relationship got under way, he totally trailed off to a basically vanilla existance.  And I don't mean that I expect micro management or to be constantly told what to do, and I know that real life has most of us functioning like most other couples do in a basic sense.  But I no longer even felt a dominant demeanor coming off of him, yet I was expected (when he was in the mood to demand it) to just be automatically in sub mode.   And it doesn't work for me.

Maybe it's not so much about dominance and submission as it is about a particular dominant FEELING dominant to a particular submissive and vice versa.  In other words, the guy who feels vanilla to me might be the dominant of the universe to someone else.

< Message edited by marie2 -- 1/9/2009 2:37:51 PM >

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RE: is it a rarity - 1/9/2009 2:41:50 PM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

Chalking it up to "well, shit happens" is just deflecting responsibility and accountability.
not more or less then saying the Dom is to blame.
responsibility has nothing to do with it. If soem one stops obeying..you can't beat the shit out of them. It just stops then..what ever the reason is.

If my boss ask me to do something..and I say no...and refuse it. He is not a bad boss..because I like to irritate him with a no.
He will try to convince me...and if I still say no... I have to leave..or they kick me out. I can't see why me beeing an asshole in this situation makes him to blame.



(in reply to Ph0enixF1re)
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RE: is it a rarity - 1/9/2009 2:43:19 PM   
Aszhrae


Posts: 1030
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quote:

I just haven't seen many profiles that say "I'm going to be really harsh, strict, and demanding until you will serve me without thinking, then I plan on sitting on the couch playing Halo 3 while you clean the house. You will be OK with that right?" When you do that, you are pulling the bait and switch.


Its not just male dominants either that tend to be like.

I believe its a rarity when you have a D/s or M/s relationship where both individuals involved are responsible for each other. Then of course there is the commitment issue within the relationship.
Beginning to realize that not everyone is well-suited to being a dominant, just as some sub/slaves may not be suitable for certain types. I know I am not suitable to serve every dominant, just a particular type of a dominant that is a rarity for me.
Then of course there is the dominant of substance and I am not stating wealth or awe-inspiring. The rare ones are the ones that value the traditional values or having to prove to their peers just how superior they actually are. The rare one are the leader types that have learned to speak appropriately to get what they want done. The leader type dominants that speak in a whisper but its like a chorus. What is done, not because it is expected, but silently appreciated. That there are dominants that do not need to smile because you just know they are smiling on the inside.
I have met only a few dominants that do not care for posturing, declaring their superiority, like a peacock struts, with words.
They really do seem to be a rarity.
The kind of a dominant that a girl would feel appreciated, honored, and respected for having placed so much trust.
Few and far between.
Then of course there are the dominants that are individuals of their word. Even more a rarity it seems.




_____________________________

To my own self, I be true.

Goddess bless and keep you and yours safe

Ricah-Azzh

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RE: is it a rarity - 1/9/2009 3:10:05 PM   
rabinyaZharovna


Posts: 106
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline 		I just wanted to say thank you to those of you who had something nice to say about what I posted and thank you for getting what I was saying and thank you for sorting it out with those who didn't... even if they still don't, and maybe never will, at least we gave it a go. :) funny how the ones who seemed to miss the point were men.

My quick thought on this is rather simple. Yes, it's the Dominants fault. Now please note, because this is really reallllly important to get... I am not talking about the initial stages of getting to know one another and figuring out that one likes more extreme things than the other, or one loves cats and the other is allergic and so on. This is about the relationships that start off with all of that well suited and then fall off down the line leaving everyone confused and disillusioned.

I said my answer is, yes, it's the Dominants fault, I'm laying it at their feet when it goes south because... and this is so important... the biiiiggggest failing that women have in a relationship, and a failing I spoke of in my post, is that they don't say something the moment dissastisfaction becomes a niggle in their brain. They wait, they can't bear to bring it up, they don't know what to say... the list goes on, but they say nothing until they can't possibly articulate what it is that they need to say. They let it fester and build for so long they can't begin to understand it, let alone explain it. What's a Dominant to do? How can that be laid at his feet? I lay it at his feet because I am just as guilty as every other woman of doing that in every other relationship I have ever had. The only difference, the reason that doesn't happen in this one, is for one reason, this Master doesn't it allow it on his bus. Women do not, do noooot suddenly, one day, decide... huh, ya know, I'm thinkin' I'l pass on submitting to you, even though I have been for the last year. What they do suddenly realize is that they are no longer driven to submit to you.
 
:) K, everyone can go on with the sorting cuz they are doing a bang up job of it!
rz{PF}

< Message edited by rabinyaZharovna -- 1/9/2009 3:12:13 PM >

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RE: is it a rarity - 1/9/2009 3:32:35 PM   
BRNaughtyAngel


Posts: 1821
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: rabinyaZharovna

If all it takes is a woman loving a man to want to serve him endlessly, then why would she be seeking out this relationship? She could fall in love with any vanilla guy and serve him all day. If she could keep herself in a submissive mindset all the time then why does she need you? What makes her crave, seek and need a Dominant in her life? And what are you doing to to ensure that you (general sense) are the Dominant she aches to serve? There are very few women who are in this just for the kinky sex. Women on here say it again and again... just because you are Dominant doesn't mean you are my Dominant. Just because you are Dominant doesn't mean I'm submissive to you. It isn't about just being a Dominant personality, it's about Dominating her... continuously. Pushing those buttons within her... continuously. Settling back and saying all is well, I have her trained and now she will serve me out of love is, well, a misguided, unfortunate, popular belief. A belief that I think is the core reason for so many relationships failing. Obviously differnt people need different levels of this interaction, but what are you doing to ensure that level, whatever it may be, is being continuously met? When I see "laid back" I see "I set the ground rules, you obey because you want to and all is well."  Hmmm okay, maybe that is why past relationships are just that... past, not current. You, as the Dominant, are the leader of the relationship, so where are you leading it? What are you actively, consciously doing to bring out the best in her and the relationship? Because that is what she signed up for and that is when you get a sub or a slave who will do everything in the world to make your life wonderful. The rarity, in my experience, is the Dominant who understands that he is the driver of the entire relationship, who goes against the natural grain of complacency, and acts with the incredible conscious effort it requires to keep the bus moving forward. 
rz{PF}
 I didn't grab a coke (but I did get an Orange Fanta Zero!) and I'm so glad that I read this post.. I hope there are folks out there who will read it and benefit from it. Wonderful job!



Add me to the list that says  excellent post... again!    

I wanted to also say something about what heartfeltsub posted:

quote:


While i agree that all parties in a relationship need to be committed to keeping the relationship healthy, and, making a gender based disclaimer here, (sexist comment coming), in most of the relationships that i have seen in my almost 50 years on this earth, it is more often the man in the relationship that gets complacent about the status of the relationship. i don't know if it because men or most men seem to be more interested in the hunt and the challenge of the hunt and once the challenge has been met, their interest wanes or if it something else.


An interesting fact that I have heard reported in recent years is that women file for divorce twice as often as men.  I think in Canada it's something like 75% of divorces are initiated by women.

The number one reason women file for divorce is Lack of Attention/Lack of Affection from their husbands.  I heard that one on a news report the other day.

And yes it is a sweeping generalization....., and it really doesn't matter if every Dom, Dick and Harry dominates the living hell outta their submissive, if yours is the one who got lax.... it fucks with your head, your heart and your submission, as is evidenced by the number of submissives who post here and elsewhere wondering what happened to the guy the originally submitted to.

MadRabbit mentioned compatibility issues and I agree that sometimes it really just comes down to that.  But other times I think the people are compatible, but one or both lose sight of what brought them together in the first place, and how to keep that alive.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: is it a rarity - 1/9/2009 4:00:12 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

I am not a relations expert...but it sounds like nonsense when there are a million reasons a relation can go wrong.

 I disagree with this, too. There's probably only a handful of reasons that cause a relationship to go south. Compatibility issues and.. um.. actually, I can't think of any other reason right now, but I'm sure there are some!  Oh, illness, too (mental or physical). Unless your talking about piddling stuff which is most likely a sympton not an underlying cause, I think you might be a bit off with throwing out that huge number.        edited to add: I thought of another one.. abuse. 3 down, 999,997 to go.

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 1/9/2009 4:04:11 PM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to JustDarkness)
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RE: is it a rarity - 1/9/2009 4:06:56 PM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

I am not a relations expert...but it sounds like nonsense when there are a million reasons a relation can go wrong.

 I disagree with this, too. There's probably only a handful of reasons that cause a relationship to go south. Compatibility issues and.. um.. actually, I can't think of any other reason right now, but I'm sure there are some!  Oh, maybe finances. Unless your talking about piddling stuff which is most likely a sympton not an underlying cause, I think you might be a bit off with throwing out that huge number.      



sometimes you say things to illustrate soemthing... I didn't count them..so don't focus on the million...as I don't focus on your hand full (exactly 5??).
It is just a way to describe that there are many other reasons besides blaming the Dom.

like asking some one..did you ever do this/that.....and he asnwers ......Oh yes..a million times.


hope that clears..the number issue...




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RE: is it a rarity - 1/9/2009 5:20:48 PM   
breezofflowerz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PanthersMom

why do we have these debates?  this all goes back to that bs of "twue" relationships.  as we are all individuals, we all have different needs and desires, as well as different lives.  we have varied requirements in those lives, children, parents, jobs and so on.  we choose whatever dynamics work for us and our respective partners because of that.  that a relationship appears to be "less strict" about something than others does not make it less valid.  unless you live in that relationship dynamic you don't really and truly know everything about it.  that doesn't make it less or more anything, just different.     
PM


Thank you, PM.

I was just thinking, "this person has never lived with toddler twins or been a live-in caretaker to a parent with Alzheimer's." Unfortunately, life does happen.
Complacency and inattention happen in all relationships: friendships, parent/child relationships, siblings etc. etc. It is the human setpoint to take the path of least resistance.


< Message edited by breezofflowerz -- 1/9/2009 5:29:41 PM >

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RE: is it a rarity - 1/9/2009 5:59:34 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness



hope that clears..the number issue...




 Ah, okay. Gross exaggeration offered as some sort of mysterious counter-point with no substantiation to back it up. Got it. Thanks.   

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to JustDarkness)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: is it a rarity - 1/9/2009 6:03:49 PM   
ChainGoddess


Posts: 731
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From: Ireland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Might be rare for others.  Still the order of the day in this house.

What LadyPact said. 


_____________________________

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Anne Rice- When you think night and day and every moment only of pleasing me, things will be very easy for you.

I could give up chocolate but I'm not a quitter.

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RE: is it a rarity - 1/9/2009 7:09:38 PM   
Aszhrae


Posts: 1030
Joined: 3/31/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Chuck me into the daily rituals column. 

Morning spankings
Evening greeting kneeling and kissing my feet
Nightly chaining/caging

I agree that the daily ritual people don't seem more common than the weekly ritual gang but I think we represent more than 10% of the total.


Nothing wrong with having an established daily ritual. But not everyone understands the importance of it.


_____________________________

To my own self, I be true.

Goddess bless and keep you and yours safe

Ricah-Azzh

(in reply to ResidentSadist)
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RE: is it a rarity - 1/10/2009 12:19:29 AM   
JustDarkness


Posts: 1461
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness



hope that clears..the number issue...




 Ah, okay. Gross exaggeration offered as some sort of mysterious counter-point with no substantiation to back it up. Got it. Thanks.   


nope.
but it isn't much different as saying a strong "Disagree"...and then add "propably", "um", "but I am sure there are more"
neither a strong way to disagree
guess we all have our experssion problems

ps.
Do you know the expression "there are a million ways leading to Rome"?
there are not....many..but not a million. Still the whole world uses the expression...Some even.with out beeing ever in Rome ;)
Still they know what is meant with it.




< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 1/10/2009 12:24:59 AM >

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RE: is it a rarity - 1/10/2009 1:30:05 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		The expression is 'all roads lead to Rome' and has to do with the Roman influence on the spread of Christianity . I fail to see how that, in any way is pertinent to anything that has been stated on this thread.  Meh. This has gone too far off-topic and is circular in nature. Own your words or don't, that's up to you. Feel free to exaggerate to your hearts content. I won't address the issue again.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to JustDarkness)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: is it a rarity - 1/10/2009 3:26:08 AM   
JustDarkness


Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

. Own your words or don't, that's up to you. Feel free to exaggerate to your hearts content. I won't address the issue again.



Nice way to think you are right.

anyway..to get back to the topic.


the point was..there might be more reasons then just the Dom




< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 1/10/2009 3:43:51 AM >

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RE: is it a rarity - 1/10/2009 8:35:08 AM   
rabinyaZharovna


Posts: 106
Joined: 4/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BRNaughtyAngel

And yes it is a sweeping generalization....., and it really doesn't matter if every Dom, Dick and Harry dominates the living hell outta their submissive, if yours is the one who got lax.... it fucks with your head, your heart and your submission, as is evidenced by the number of submissives who post here and elsewhere wondering what happened to the guy the originally submitted to.




I thought this was a great way of putting it.
rz{PF}

_____________________________

In making me nothing, He makes me everything

(in reply to BRNaughtyAngel)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: is it a rarity - 1/10/2009 8:53:03 AM   
rabinyaZharovna


Posts: 106
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: breezofflowerz

quote:

ORIGINAL: PanthersMom

why do we have these debates?  this all goes back to that bs of "twue" relationships.  as we are all individuals, we all have different needs and desires, as well as different lives.  we have varied requirements in those lives, children, parents, jobs and so on.  we choose whatever dynamics work for us and our respective partners because of that.  that a relationship appears to be "less strict" about something than others does not make it less valid.  unless you live in that relationship dynamic you don't really and truly know everything about it.  that doesn't make it less or more anything, just different.     
PM


Thank you, PM.

I was just thinking, "this person has never lived with toddler twins or been a live-in caretaker to a parent with Alzheimer's." Unfortunately, life does happen.
Complacency and inattention happen in all relationships: friendships, parent/child relationships, siblings etc. etc. It is the human setpoint to take the path of least resistance.



My point was that the Dom who recognizes the importance and puts forth the enormous effort(because it does require enormous effort and I absolutely appreciate that fact) and doesn't allow complacency and inattention to happen is rare. Secondly my post was about the relationships that don't work.... not the ones that are working, if you have the ongoing level that you need then that's great, but many do not. Maybe if we can see two of the big reasons... the pace that falls off and the difficulty that women have expressing that feeling , then perhaps someone will read this and think... wow, I've done exactly that... maybe their next go around won't wind up being one more past relationship. It has nothing to do with what qualifies as a true relationship and what doesn't. As I said, if yours works for you that's great, but so many are still trying to figure what works for them.

Life does happen, but please do not presume to think you know the level of chaos or difficulties in our lives that we have to work through... do not presume to think that we have nothing to deal with but the glory of our "usness". That is exactly the point, continuing to make your relationship a priority, continuing to feed it's foundation, despite all of those things because there will always be something, some reason, to let it slide. Some slide into a comfortable level for both parties, but many slide into "comfortable for me" not realizing that for her it has slid into "neglect and inattention." 
rz{PF}

_____________________________

In making me nothing, He makes me everything

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RE: is it a rarity - 1/10/2009 12:43:38 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ph0enixF1re

A couple of thoughts:

"The first rule of leadership: Everything is your fault."  (A Bugs Life)  Sure, something may have changed in the sub, but in the vast majority of failed relationships, it is the dominant that lost control, lost focus, or simply lost patience.  Both parties bear some culpablility, but the majority share of responsibility goes to the Dominant.
 

I disagree.  I can have a relationship with a submissive and every day of the week give her the guidance she asked for, the love she asked for, the play she asked for, the displays of dominance she asked for, the time and attention she asked for but perhaps I am not strict enough for her in some area or perhaps I am not meeting a "want" of hers (want rather than need) and so, she begins talking to some other dominant about it.  I can ask her every day what her thoughts are and if she chooses to tell me everything BUT the fact that she is speaking with another dominant who keeps telling her that when I do this, I am wrong or when I do that, I am wrong...and so, she stops submitting.  Now then, does the majority of the responsibility for her failure to submit fall on me still?

quote:

The only common factor in all your failed relationships is you.
 

That's true...and it's a good way to get someone to look at themselves.  But let's not forget that in all failed relationships, there were two...or more, in the case of poly...people involved and that same statement can be applied to them. 

quote:

Isn't getting all the rules/protocols/actions/expectations in place through training and pressure, then sitting back and just letting the plane fly on autopilot at a steady course and altitude changing the fundamental expectations of the relationship.
 

IF someone goes to autopilot, yes it is.  And what you have said is a convincing case for including in any discussion prior to a D/s dynamic-relationship being formed and entered into a conversational seque into what is considered to be "auto-pilot" versus normal routine living in which the D/s dynamic is expressed but not at a constant, "dramatically" demonstrative level.

quote:

I just haven't seen many profiles that say "I'm going to be really harsh, strict, and demanding until you will serve me without thinking, then I plan on sitting on the couch playing Halo 3 while you clean the house.  You will be OK with that right?"  When you do that, you are pulling the bait and switch.


I agree that what you describe is "bait and switch".  I also feel, as has been noted, that it is a matter of compatibility and deep discussions as to what is needed and wanted and clarifying the difference between the two, discussion as to the necessity of having to keep communication lines open on BOTH sides, and finally, remembering which side of the D/s dynamic you are on and just what your responsibilities are on that side.  That involves being able to look within yourself and view yourself objectively and not always answer "Yes" when you ask yourself "Am I being the dominant/submissive I promised to be?  Am I communicating my pleasure/displeasure with the way things are going?" and not always answering "No" when you ask yourself "Am I trying to lead rather than follow/follow rather than lead?"

I'm a big believer in rituals and protocol.  Not to the extent that some are and more so than others.  I am who and what I am and, while I keep trying to make that "me" a better "me" that equates to being a better man and dominant, my 50-some years of life have also enabled me to look and see where I've been "wrong" for being too complacent and "wrong" for being too aggressive within the same relationship. 




< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 1/10/2009 1:10:18 PM >

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