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RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/8/2009 6:28:39 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
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OK, well, color me confused. First you're VenalisMihi saying you'd never want to be in a dominant's shoes...with a profile that says you're dominant. Now you're KonDomme from Basque, UK.

Oh, I see you just edited your post. So VenalisMihi is or is not KonDomme? Shrug.

(in reply to KonDomme)

Post #: 61

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/8/2009 6:30:52 AM

Venalismihi

Posts: 63
Joined: 1/28/2008
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I am sorry, when did I say that I did not want to be in a Domme's shoes. I thought the discussion was about submissives being less so if they were independant?!

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 62

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/8/2009 6:36:54 AM

sambamanslilgirl

Posts: 10926
Joined: 2/5/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Venalismihi

I have always considered that the sub is the stronger of the pair. they are the poor sods that not only have to carry their own lives but mine also. I would not be in their shoes for a pension. I could not manage without one but do not desire to manage them.

a submissive managing your life too?!

so that means, you're not the dominant person of the relationship if someone else is micro-managing you.

_____________________________

...2011 - year of the fabulous rock star life ...and i do it so well...

...announcing Mr. & Mrs. British Petrol ...yeah, marrying into oil is slick business...

(in reply to Venalismihi)

Post #: 63

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/8/2009 7:28:58 AM

OmegaG

Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline

"He chooses to be dependant on me, but if necessary he doesnt have to be. The choice is what makes it special."

I think that DV's comments bear repeating. Both here and in the big wide world, I've always known men who were looking for someone who needed them. It never struck me as a very attractive trait. in fact it struck me as somewhat insecure for a person to hold such a high priortiy on becomeing part of a relationship where the other person was dependent on them, after all that is a bit of an insurance policy against them leaving, unless they find someone else they can be dependent to.

_____________________________

Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to VampiresLair)

Post #: 64

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/8/2009 7:56:47 AM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SassySarijane

Some recent comments got me wondering what others think. Basically comments were made that one couldn't be submissive or slave if they were independent, strong, self-reliant; that in order to be submissive or slave one must be dependent and reliant on others.

*snee*bullshit*eeze*

Feminism is about being a strong, self-reliant, independent woman...with CHOICES. My girl chooses to follow her heart of slave...and yet she is STILL a strong, self-reliant, independent woman. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to SassySarijane)

Post #: 65

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/8/2009 8:12:38 AM

SassySarijane

Posts: 1558
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: KC Area Missouri
Status: offline

Bless you MasterFire

I think for me personally the strength and self reliance I've found make me even better able to serve. It's both part of me and my choice to do so.

_____________________________

Sarah2
Deviant Mind
Wild Side Readers
LPTnB

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 66

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/8/2009 10:12:55 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

I prefer to submit in the context of a relationship, which is why I chose a relationship with a man who inspires that reaction in me. Perhaps you are submissive with everyone, but for me, it doesn't happen without the external stimuli HE provides.

Kimveri,

indeed, we both come at this from vastly different perspectives. however, this slave doesn't believe it negates either of our experiences or realities, just because we are different.

this slave chose to be in a relationship with a man who accepts her submissive personality and uses it for His pleasure/gratification. for her, submission is her knee-jerk reaction to the world and those that are in it, as well as a source of sexual gratification, spiritual comfort and preferred relationship orientation.

this slave has never had the experience of being "inspired" to submit to another, but she is totally willing to take your word for it that that is how you experience submission.

quote:

...It's an absolute -- therefore static -- that I've never encountered. If you are "always submissive" with everyone, then I can now rest easy knowing there's IS one living, breathing absolute out there. ;-D...

this slave's automatic response is to submit...yes, to everyone...however, having a submissive personality does not mean that one is devoid of intellect, a drone who cannot choose NOT to submit or someone who is incapable of upholding an agreement to submit only to one.

this slave isn't the only one in posession of a submissive personality...just like she isn't the only one with pink nipples.

a few years ago at the Folsom Street Fair a man with a 35mm camera approached and asked Master if he could take pictures. After receiving approval, he proceeded to focus his very long lens on this slave's areola/nipple and after what seemed like 30 or 40 shots, he took a quick break to ask Master, with an incredulous look on his face, "how do you get them that color?"

he had to be at least 35 y/o, and totally unaware that nipples can indeed naturally be pale pink.

quote:

...I hope some of this brought others to think about the inaccuracies in applying their personal standards & preferences to others...
You've perhaps misread me if you think I was suggesting otherwise...

you asserted:

quote:

...I don't think anyone is "always" submissive/dominant/introvert/extrovert with everyone. It's an absolute -- therefore static -- that I've never encountered...

sounds a lot like "applying your personal standards & preferences to others" and coming up inaccurate...or did this slave misread you?

(in reply to Kimveri)

Post #: 67

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/8/2009 10:20:54 AM

Aszhrae

Posts: 1030
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline

A set of rules at the commencement of the relationship is all that suffices in order to ensure that I never never need to repeat or tell or demand anything.

Something stated earlier. I believe this is where the independence comes into it importance as a sub/slave, to be told what to do only once, follow through with routines, schedules or itineraries without being told again and again.

Does it make the sub/slave dependent if they have to ask what their dominant might want of them to do next. After everything has already been completed that the dominant has already directed?

Does it make the sub/slave dependent if they are having difficulty and need to confide in their dominant?

Or is what expected of the sub/slave to complete a task (independent of supervision), keep their troubles and work them out for themselves (independent self-counsel)?
That the only real dependence that seems to be desired is when they are called into the bedroom and/or dungeon.

That does seem to be the extent dependence, when physical gratification is the desired outcome. Nice dynamic. Pitiful.
As a sub/slave I would expect a hell of a lot more out of my dominant than being a mere creature of carnal desires. Just as I would expect my dominant to expect a hell of lot more out of me.

_____________________________

To my own self, I be true.

Goddess bless and keep you and yours safe

Ricah-Azzh

(in reply to SassySarijane)

Post #: 68

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/8/2009 11:43:51 AM

FlamingRedhead

Posts: 451
Joined: 3/4/2007
From: Georgia
Status: offline

Saying someone can't be submissive because they are independent is just as ridiculous as saying someone who is dependent must be incapable, abused or the victim of someone who is insecure, unintelligent, or whatever other derogatory term one wishes to use to infer that someone else is inferior. From what I've seen, there are very many dominants looking for submissives who are independent, self-sufficient, without drama, etc. It's quite possible to find a submissive like that, but in my mind, it equates to wanting an easy-peasy kinky friend with benefits who is willing to suck cock and clean a nasty batchelor pad in exchange for occasional play/kinky sex which she should be more than grateful for after she's worked 40 hours a week, cleaned up her own mess, paid her own bills, and cooked her own meals, meanwhile keeping her life events and feelings to herself as well as keeping her own submissive headspace and finding her own satisfaction in serving because he certainly can't be bothered to display any actual dominance.

_____________________________

I'm so addicted to
All the things you do
When you're going down on me
In between the sheets
Or the sound you make
With every breath you take
It's unlike anything
When you're loving me

(in reply to SassySarijane)

Post #: 69

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/8/2009 12:41:16 PM

SassySarijane

Posts: 1558
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: KC Area Missouri
Status: offline

quote:

Aszhrae
Does it make the sub/slave dependent if they have to ask what their dominant might want of them to do next. After everything has already been completed that the dominant has already directed?

Does it make the sub/slave dependent if they are having difficulty and need to confide in their dominant?

No I don't believe it does.

Definitely no I do not believe it does.

_____________________________

Sarah2
Deviant Mind
Wild Side Readers
LPTnB

(in reply to FlamingRedhead)

Post #: 70

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/8/2009 12:51:23 PM

oceanwynds

Posts: 1044
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

but in my mind, it equates to wanting an easy-peasy kinky friend with benefits who is willing to suck cock and clean a nasty batchelor pad in exchange for occasional play/kinky sex which she should be more than grateful for after she's worked 40 hours a week, cleaned up her own mess, paid her own bills, and cooked her own meals, meanwhile keeping her life events and feelings to herself as well as keeping her own submissive headspace and finding her own satisfaction in serving because he certainly can't be bothered to display any actual dominance.

Perhaps in your mind it is seen this way, but for many it is not.

I been reading this thread and in many cases it just a pissing contest on who is more submissive or having a real submissive experience with a 'real' Dom. Does it really matter if one is independent or not? Why would that defer to the type of actual dominace being given to the submissive. Are we so insecure in ourselves that we have to boo hiss others involvement, because it doesn't follow our 'true' relationship.

I know this is the boards and people are just viewing their opinions, and most can just shrug off some of these statements here. I speaking for myself because of my newness to Ds, and people pointing fingers saying oh you don't have the 'real thing' to people who are this way or that. Doesnt matter which is the real way, because both are covering all bases here. It just a pissing contest of who is 'real' verses who isnt. The good thing is it made me think yesterday on what i have, and it is good. There will always be the debate on who is real and who is not, and mine is better then yours. That is the way of many people, and always will be the way of many people. It dont matter if it is here in BDSM ville or any other lifestyle you get into. You will always come across a pissing contest of those who are not like 'me' are not experiencing any reality of whatever..

I am done ranting.

(in reply to FlamingRedhead)

Post #: 71

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/8/2009 2:12:42 PM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

I'm dependant in all sorts of ways on M and independant in others. I've become dependant upon him for certain things because he is the supplier of them and there are other areas where he's encouraged my independence.

It seems pretty natural, to me, to have become dependent on him to a degree considering he's a pivotal part of my life.

agirl

ETA....that was a FR.

< Message edited by agirl -- 1/8/2009 2:14:01 PM >

(in reply to oceanwynds)

Post #: 72

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/8/2009 5:17:45 PM

SassySarijane

Posts: 1558
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: KC Area Missouri
Status: offline

Your post got me thinking, agirl, on a comment made by another poster about the shades of grey. I think a lot of times we lose sight of the shades of grey, the blendings, and focus on the cut and dry, black and white. Dependent or independent, reliant or self reliant, rather than the blending of all it often is.

In a relationship I am going to be dependent and reliant to one degree or another, but I will also still be self reliant and independent. How much or little of each will depend on the dynamic and I feel it will be a flowing thing rather than totally locked into this much one and this much the other. I think ongoing circumstances caused by life will keep it flowing overall with very likely a few set areas staying one or the other as the rest flows through shades of grey.

_____________________________

Sarah2
Deviant Mind
Wild Side Readers
LPTnB

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 73

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/8/2009 5:49:48 PM

greeneyedreamer

Posts: 442
Joined: 6/20/2007
Status: offline

quote:

my answer is that i am a very self-reliant and independent woman who is also extremely submissive and have been all my life. i run my own business, travel all over the country by myself, and take care of any situations that come up as i need to. i am also very submissive to my Dominant and extremely obedient and He prefers that He doesn't "need" to take care of me all the time. He has often said that of all the people in His life, i am the most self-sufficient and He really appreciates that because i am not "needy", which to Him would be draining.

The other Dominant friend of mine that i was speaking to today about this very topic felt the same way and really appreciates that His slave is also very self-reliant and doesn't need constant taking care of. Both of the Dominants that i am speaking about are semi-fixers by nature but neither want to be a full-time fixer because of how draining they find it.

So i would strongly disagree that to be submissive one must be reliant and dependant.

I have to agree wholeheartedly with Heartfelt. I am very self reliant and independent. I run things at work for a lot of people. I have much responsibility in work and at home. I can take care of myself.

_____________________________

Dreamer, owned and ecstatically happy

I am still learning... Michelangelo, age 87

Maybe some women weren't meant to be tamed. Maybe they are suppose to run wild until they find someone just as wild to run with. Sex and the City

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 74

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/8/2009 6:18:24 PM

oceanwynds

Posts: 1044
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline

In my case I was reliant and dependent on my late husband. When he died, I did not know what I was going to do. Mom rented me one of her condo's, and i tried to get on disability. The first time I was refused, I decided to not appeal but to find something i could do for myself and get paid. I did not know much about budgeting money or anything, mostly because I was being treated for bipolar. I hadn't really worked through the whole marriage. When my husband died, I didn't know what would become of me. All I know was I didnt want to end up on the streets, because I was there in the 70's. Through hubby's death all our money was drained. That was not planned for but 4 years of having emphysema and lung cancer drained everything that was saved. When he died, I was not old enough to get his pension.

It was a slow process and I dont know how i made it the first year, except peanut butter and bread became my friend. I met Sir 1 year after my husband died. One thing I told him was I wanted to learn to be self sufficient. To be able to take care of myself, and he said he would help me.

I serve Sir very well and in my heart i try to be a good submissive to him. He says I am wonderful. I work hard at both being independent and being a submissive. I finding a good balance with it. It is good to read other posters who value their independence too and yet can submit to the one(s) they want.

When my husband died, I chose then to not seek another to move in with. I chose to find some way to take care of myself. It is scary but I am doing it. I know I am making my hubby proud of me and I know Sir is proud of my accomplishments. When I am with him, i submit completely as well aswhen i am not with him. i continously submit to his directions and desires. He is not a part time Dom and i am not a part time Sub. I just need to take care of me to make him proud, and to make me proud.

oceanwynds

(in reply to greeneyedreamer)

Post #: 75

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/8/2009 6:21:14 PM

T1981

Posts: 557
Joined: 12/6/2008
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Oceanwynds, everytime you talk about your journey I am in awe of what it must have taken to go through that and to rebuild yourself. You're a very strong person to have done that - please know you have my admiration for that.

_____________________________

"Nothing is pointless, every single thing you do resonates." -Pintsize

(in reply to oceanwynds)

Post #: 76

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/8/2009 7:08:52 PM

scarlethiney

Posts: 492
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline

I think it takes great strength , independence and self reliance to "choose" to be submissive and trust someone with your power and your soul.
The issue as I see it is one of trust. To trust another with your safety, your heart and your choices takes great courage.
People who are insecure are afraid of strength and find it hard to respect independence.

scarlet

_____________________________

"The words 'I am...' are potent words; be careful what you hitch them to. The thing you're claiming has a way of reaching back and claiming you." - A.L. Kitselman.

see my profile masterkspet

(in reply to SassySarijane)

Post #: 77

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/8/2009 8:09:41 PM

Aszhrae

Posts: 1030
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: scarlethiney

I think it takes great strength , independence and self reliance to "choose" to be submissive and trust someone with your power and your soul.
The issue as I see it is one of trust. To trust another with your safety, your heart and your choices takes great courage.
People who are insecure are afraid of strength and find it hard to respect independence.

scarlet

You are quite right.
I believe there was more trust 25 years ago within the community than there is now.
People don't just want someone to serve them anymore, they want it all but without the responsibility or the commitment.
I really do believe that someone willing to invest every ounce of themselves into serving one person. Actually scares people more than the thought of someone never knowing independence enough, so that a dominant might have it to deny someone of ever returning to it. Taking independence away from a sub/slave is more valued than the sub/slave that would dedicate their lives to their dominant.
I put my self in the hospital so another could run to safety and get help. It may have almost cost me my life but dedication requires a certain amount of independence that some just do not value any more. Self-sacrifice is a different kind of independence typical of Samurai's and Lords. No one seems to value that kind of independence. Only independence that seems to get anyone's attention is fiscal independence.

_____________________________

To my own self, I be true.

Goddess bless and keep you and yours safe

Ricah-Azzh

(in reply to scarlethiney)

Post #: 78

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/9/2009 6:25:57 AM

oceanwynds

Posts: 1044
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline

Thank you T1981

oceanwynds

(in reply to T1981)

Post #: 79

RE: Being independent=can't be submissive or slave? - 1/9/2009 8:20:09 AM

Kimveri

Posts: 783
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline

G'morning, beth,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
you asserted:

quote:

...I don't think anyone is "always" submissive/dominant/introvert/extrovert with everyone. It's an absolute -- therefore static -- that I've never encountered...

sounds a lot like "applying your personal standards & preferences to others" and coming up inaccurate...or did this slave misread you?

Yes, you've misread me.

A "static" personality type would not change, ever, at all. Someone who is "always submissive" (or dominant or introverted, etc.) would not sometimes be otherwise. "Always" is one of those words that leaves no room for choice. "Static" is one of those words too because it means, literally, 'unchanging'. Neither term fits when describing the social interactions or the personality types of people. Using either (or both) of those words sets one up for inaccuracies.

You yourself stated:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
{...} having a submissive personality does not mean that one is devoid of intellect, a drone who cannot choose NOT to submit or someone who is incapable of upholding an agreement to submit only to one.{...}

That comment suggests that you may sometimes choose not to be submissive with everyone. When you are interacting with someone you do not submit to, are you showing them a fake personality (since that's the one term you used to define your whole personality) or are there other aspects of your personality that they can see, know & interact with that have nothing to do with submission?

According to many researchers & scientists in the imprecise fields of sociology & behavioral science, there are more aspects to a person's personality type than just one. Take the Myers/Briggs typing, for an example: there are 16 types! All of them are an amalgamation of multiple active aspects of personality. None of them are limited to a solitary aspect of personality type as definitive.

These are not "personal standards" of mine, nor are these my personal "preferences". These are scientific conclusions. I have had to adjust my former understanding of personality in my field of work, thanks to the direction science & research are taking us. I'm simply suggesting that there's more to it than what any one of us prefers or lives by.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
this slave has never had the experience of being "inspired" to submit to another

I am sorry to hear this. I find incredible fulfillment in submission inspired by the complementary dominance of my mate.

Well wishes,

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 80

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