RE: Gaza/Israel situation (Full Version)

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RealityLicks -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/16/2009 8:56:43 AM)

That's exactly why these arguments over who has broken the "rules" governing conflicts tend to become academic.  The IDF wouldn't have to use white phosphorus, either to illuminate the area or to disguise troop movements, if Israel's long-term blockade hadn't cut the power to the Gazan lighting grid in the first place.  They've created an area where ordinary people have less freedom and fewer utlilities than some prisoners in the UK but want them to forswear retaliation as a condition of even discussing ending it.  



ArticMaestro -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/16/2009 11:16:23 AM)

And of course they would not have had a blockade, if when Isreal withdrew from Gaza and evacuated all the settlements,per to the negotiated peace treaty, they had not recieved a wave of suicide bombers and rocket attacks.  

Hamas refusal to uphold the previous treaties, does play a large part in this. 

Hamas is not fighting to get the power turned on...they are fighting to destroy Isreal.   They do have the right to continue to engage in warfare, and reject the concept of peace.  But the results are on thier heads. 



Aneirin -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/16/2009 11:34:40 AM)

Well, it seems a UK Channel four reporter, Inigo Gilmore has got into Gaza via Egypt and there spoke by telephone to Channel four news. He has got in as far as Khan Yunis, and there reports the inhabitants very scared, as it seems to them whether it be missiles or shelling, they seem indescriminate in their targets. That being so, they fear if they will live from minute to minute, are they going to be unlucky in the unlucky dip targetting.

Fancy living like that, not knowing if you and your family are going to die from one minute to the next, these are normal people in their homes, not combatants. It as if they are just waiting for their death.



RealityLicks -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/16/2009 11:40:32 AM)

Without making light of the deaths of the fifteen individuals killed by them in the last ten years, those puny rockets couldn't destroy a single building, let alone the 20,000 buildings levelled by Israel in the last couple weeks.  The rockets are political weapons.  Look, Hamas was gradually becoming more moderate and that troubles some elements within Israel's establishment who do not want the two-state solution Hamas wants.  There is a definite desire to emulate aspects of the Sinn Fein/IRA model, with the eventual disarmament of Izzedin al Qassam surely to be envisioned.  The truce was broken by Israel.  How would the world have reacted if Britain had attacked West Belfast in the way Israel has attacked Gaza?                                                                                                                                                                                                   Israeli hawks want a militant Hamas, because like warmongers everywhere, they get off on slaughter and  dream of driving Gaza's population into Egypt and the West Bank's into Jordan.  An angry Palestinian population justifies this, hence funding Hamas in the first place.  A Palestinian moderate politician is more dangerous than a radical.



ArticMaestro -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/16/2009 11:53:09 AM)

That's not really the same thing.  The IRA never had a goal of the elimination of nation of Britian.  The IRA didn't have allies with armies on several of Britians borders that launched several invasions in a few decades.

Digging a tunnel into Isreal is not moderating, it is escalating.  I haven't seen any evidence tht Hamas is moderating.  They siezed absolute power over Gaza by force, killing thier Palestinian opponents.  They rejected the existing peace deals, making the political decision for violent conflict.   They rejected the political decision to educate and care about thier civilian population.



It really is worth noting that more than 1000 Palestinians were killed by Hamas,in their violent takeover of Gaza.   They were not elected to the power they now hold.  But they have supporters in the west, we see it on these boards.






ArticMaestro -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/16/2009 12:01:42 PM)

Reality, Please provide evidence that Isreal Funded Hamas....we did that on a recent thread, and there was none. 

I think you have it backwards.  Hamas derives its power through war and terror, and have a dream of seeing the others eliminated.  Hamas is the one afraid to stand for referendum.  Hamas is the one that killed its own people to get to the level of Political power they now have.  Hamas and the PLO (who also siezed power and ruled by force) have routinely killed Moderates, thousands of them over the decades, they are called Collaborators.  



RealityLicks -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/17/2009 1:56:18 AM)

I wasn't here when Hamas was discussed.  I understood that support was given because they were Arafat's main opposition at the time.  I'm more than happy to omit that cheery little subject.  To address your seeming condemnation of "supporters" of Hamas; I am very proud to confirm that I do indeed agree with the two state solution.  I see the Likud line as only leading to an eternity of serfdom for the Palestinians.  I think two states side by side might even, many generations from now, reunite.  But I am appalled by the blithe disregard shown to the suffering in Gaza and the crazed pretension that Hamas' actions justify it.
quote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/17/refuseniks-israeli-dissent-military"In the long run, it's not a war of defence. We are creating a thousand suicide bombers for the future from the brothers of the dead, the sons of the dead ... in the long term, we are creating more terror. You can't separate the war in Gaza from the fact that the Palestinian nation is under occupation for more than 40 years. I'm not justifying Hamas firing rockets but we Israelis should first look at what we are doing."



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/17/2009 3:21:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

A herpes pimple has more honour than a Palestinian.


...would that be all Palestinians? Generalise much?

Usually HK your posts are reasoned summations of your position, but the above quote borders on bigotry. 
Very much so, and I'll not deny it.

In 1987, my ex-wife and I took her younger sister to Germany as a present for graduating from UA-B (Uni). We spent the majority of our time in Bavaria, including Munich. We went to the Dachau Memorial and that experience literally rendered me speechless. I had no idea. Well, I did, but it was a detached "intellectual" awareness of the horror of the Holocaust. 

I went back to Munich for my 50th birthday in August 2003. I flew up to Berlin and did a little genealogical research. While there, I took the S-Bahn down to Wannsee and then the bus to the Wannsee Memorial, der Haus der Wannsee-Konferenz. For those who do not know, that is where the "Final Solution" was cooked up. The Chateau itself is quite lovely, as are the gardens and the location itself, on the Wannsee.

I could not finish the self-guided tour. It was just too horrible. I found myself wanting to scream at some Italian tourists who seemed to be completely impervious to the documentation which cold-bloodedly laid out how the genocide was to be carried out, and the photographs of the Nazis' victims being shipped east on "cattle-cars" to Auschwitz and Treblinka and Mauthausen and Bergen-Belsen and Buchenwald.

I could not finish viewing the "memorial". I went out into the garden and sat on a bench and cried.

Some of Israel's actions are extreme. So was the Shoah. Israel has a right to exist. The Jewish people have the right to a homeland. And I don't care what Hamas or Hezbollah or the Iranian Revolutionary Guard  think about it. Fuck 'em.



RealityLicks -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/17/2009 3:39:41 AM)

Gerald Kaufman is a serving Labour MP.  His family survived the Holocaust.  This month to the House of Commons he said:                                                                                                                                                      
quote:

My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszów. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed. Madam Deputy Speaker, my grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The present Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt among Gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians. The implication is that Jewish lives are precious, but the lives of Palestinians do not count. On Sky News a few days ago, the spokeswoman for the Israeli Army Major Livovich was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, eight hundred Palestinians. The total is now a thousand. She replied instantly, "Five hundred of them were militants." That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw Ghetto could have been dismissed as militants.
The video of Kaufman's full speech to the Commons is here.  For what it's worth, I once met him and view him as someone of integrity and he's pretty cultured, too.  His viewpoint is supported by the fact that he personally knew many of Israel's main players - including Tzipi Livni's father.



KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/17/2009 4:40:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Very much so, and I'll not deny it.


I find it so ironic that on one hand you readily admit that you have a low view of ALL Palestinians, and then go on to talk about the horrors of the holocaust.  If I'm understanding your reasoning, you believe that the Jewish people have a right to their own state - which is of course very noble.  But they don't have a right to it at ANY cost.  They don't have the right to inflict a humanitarian crisis on people.  They don't have the right to impliment unlawful economic blockades to cripple Gaza.  They don't have the right to fire phosphorus shells on civilian populations.  They don't have the right to bomb UN schools.  You need to learn to be more objective.



KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/17/2009 4:48:53 AM)

American coverage of the conflict has been wholly inadequate, and foreign media has been blocked from entering Gaza.

But here is a truely heart breaking report from within Gaza.

http://www.france24.com/en/20090116-gaza-israel-assault-medics-violence-hospital-war-palestinian



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/17/2009 5:27:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Very much so, and I'll not deny it.


I find it so ironic that on one hand you readily admit that you have a low view of ALL Palestinians, and then go on to talk about the horrors of the holocaust.  If I'm understanding your reasoning, you believe that the Jewish people have a right to their own state - which is of course very noble.  But they don't have a right to it at ANY cost.  They don't have the right to inflict a humanitarian crisis on people.  They don't have the right to impliment unlawful economic blockades to cripple Gaza.  They don't have the right to fire phosphorus shells on civilian populations.  They don't have the right to bomb UN schools.  You need to learn to be more objective.
See, I'm right up front about my position. I don't prance around pretending to be objective whilst condoning Hamas' war crimes.

You haven't earned the right to tell me how I need to see things,  pal.



KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/17/2009 5:37:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

See, I'm right up front about my position. I don't prance around pretending to be objective whilst condoning Hamas' war crimes.

You haven't earned the right to tell me how I need to see things,  pal.


Nowhere in this thread will you find me condoning the actions of Hamas.  Which is the major difference between you and me.  You condone Israel's actions, I condemn both Hamas and Israel.

Throughout this thread, I have debated people that clearly don't know anything about the conflict beyond the last couple of weeks and what Fox News feeds them, I have debated people that immediately think anyone who criticizes the Israeli government must be anti-semetic, I have debated people who claim the BBC has a 'leftist' agenda and, ridiculously, that Hamas helps the BBC write their articles all the while without being able to back it up with a shred of substantial evidence.  Throughout the thread, I back up my view points with credible news links from multiple sources.  I watch the news daily.  I watch multiple stations so I can see the difference in how different media report the same conflict.  I've seen how Fox News, the BBC, France 24, Al Jazeera, CNN and more report on this conflict.  This will sound arrogant, but I've certainly earned the right to state that I am objective.  I'm not sure if I stated this or not, but a few weeks ago, before the Israeli attacks, I had believed Hamas to be thoroughly stupid for their rocket attacks on Israel.  Half the people in this thread probably weren't even aware of the rocket attacks at that time.



KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/17/2009 5:47:21 AM)

By the way, Hamas, the eeeeeeeeeeevil terrorist organization that can't be negotiated with, who have had delegates in Egypt negotiating ceasefire, have laid the following conditions for ceasefire:

1. The reciprocal truce would begin on Saturday and be followed by the immediate transfer of humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip.

2. The Israel Defense Forces must pull all of its troops out of the coastal territory within the first week of the truce.

3. The flow of trade in and out of the Gaza Strip must be renewed and monitored by observers from Egypt, Europe, and Turkey.

4. The Rafah crossing must be reopened and supervised by Palestinian Authority security forces and international observers, until a Palestinian unity government has been established and can take its place.

5. The truce would be instated for one year with an option for renewal.

Nothing unreasonable.  It's possible an announcement will be made today that there is a ceasefire.

Now I urge you, I urge ALL of you, to watch news reports both on TV and on the Internet, very very carefully to see if Israel abides by these ceasefire conditions.  Because more than likely what will happen is, Israel will continue some form of blockade of aid or economic on Gaza, Hamas will begin firing rockets again, and Israel will again blame Hamas for a new round of violence.  This is exactly what happened the last time there was a ceasefire.



ArticMaestro -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/17/2009 10:50:37 AM)

Actually you left out the wave of suicide bombings, and tunnelling under the border, from exactly what happened last time there was a cease fire, kained.

You can talk about how you are so qualified and educated.  But you did make a false claim that Isreal Broke the cease fire, that Isreal is using Chemical Weopons on civilians ala Saddam Hussein, that Isreal is Carpet bombing, that the BBS is a news service, and that Isreal created Hamas.   You didn't say that there are allegations of these things.  You state them as fact  And backed up none of it with any sort of evidence.   Your claim of objectivity is nonsense.



KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/17/2009 11:16:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

Actually you left out the wave of suicide bombings, and tunnelling under the border, from exactly what happened last time there was a cease fire, kained.

You can talk about how you are so qualified and educated.  But you did make a false claim that Isreal Broke the cease fire, that Isreal is using Chemical Weopons on civilians ala Saddam Hussein, that Isreal is Carpet bombing, that the BBS is a news service, and that Isreal created Hamas.   You didn't say that there are allegations of these things.  You state them as fact  And backed up none of it with any sort of evidence.   Your claim of objectivity is nonsense.


The claim that Israel broke the ceasefire is debatable, but it is not false.  Seemingly you didn't watch the CNN clip I posted where they talk about it.  From a viewpoint, because Israel didn't forfil their end of the ceasefire, from that moment the ceasefire was broken.  And you can include the dozens of times Israel decided to send planes or helicopters over Gaza over the last 8 years or so.  And Israel have been using chemical weapons, which has also been confirmed by CNN.  Israel have fired white phosphorus shells into Gaza.  These are facts.  They are available for you to look up at your convenience.



KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/17/2009 11:26:21 AM)

Israel expected to announce ceasefire.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_11479327

So they reckon they've punished the Palestinian people enough.  Like I've said from the beginning, I predict in the long run this event will come back to hit Israel.  Hard.  Someone will fill the place of Hamas, or Hamas will simply recruit more people.  It's all been very senseless, really.  Nothing will have been accomplished by Israel's military actions.  They'll have made things worse.  It's insanely obvious, in fact.  You'll see.



KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/17/2009 11:45:51 AM)

In case some of you didn't already know, Olmert was forced to apologize for hitting a UN compound.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1179908



KaineD -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/17/2009 3:21:46 PM)

Israel declares unilateral cease-fire in Gaza

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/17/israel.gaza/index.html

quote:

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israel has declared a unilateral cease-fire in the fighting in Gaza beginning at 2 a.m. Sunday (7 p.m. ET Saturday), Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said.



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"Hamas has been dealt a very serious blow," Olmert said. "We can say that the conditions have been brought about that enable us to say that the aims that we laid down for the operation have been completely achieved."

Yet Israel is prepared to respond if Hamas militants continue fighting in the Palestinian territory, Olmert said.

"If foes decide to continue to fight against us, then we will be ready and we shall consider ourselves justified in replying," he said. "I do not suggest that Hamas or other terrorist organizations try us."

Immediate Palestinian response to Olmert's announcement was pessimistic.

Saeb Erakat, the chief Palestinian negotiator involved in diplomatic talks on the conflict, noted that Olmert did not say Israeli troops would be leaving Gaza.

"I'm afraid this means the cease-fire will not stand; it will break," Erakat told CNN International. "Anybody can fire a shot now. ... It's a very fragile moment."


So many questions.

First of all, this is all too much of a coincidence that the Israeli attacks began after Obama was announced President elect, and ceasefire is declared just a couple of days before he is sworn in.  What's that about?  Were they afraid of Obama not being on their side?

Secondly, the foundation of this ceasefire is already in question.  Purposefully set up to be a weak ceasefire to set up Israel being able to point the finger of blame again?



Politesub53 -> RE: Gaza/Israel situation (1/17/2009 4:34:29 PM)

Rather a unilateral ceasefire than civilian casualties though.



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