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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/7/2006 10:35:26 PM

IrishMist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ModeratorEleven

IrishMist,

Please take a moment and read your email.

Thank you.

LMAO I did...finally...

/shakes head at the backlog

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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/8/2006 7:04:38 AM

mistoferin

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quote:

How important is it to you that your master be more experienced than you are? Would you enter into a relationship knowing that you would be helping him grow much more than he will be helping you?

Wow, Interesting topic and an opportunity to verbalize some thoughts that have been bouncing around my head on this subject for some time now.

I can tell you that speaking from the perspective of someone who has been doing this for about 28 years now, if I discounted every Dominant who had less experience in terms of years than I do....well I certainly wouldn't have many left to choose from.

So I think that at this stage in the game you have to look at it from a slightly different perspective and really analyze what defines experience. Is experience something that is merely measured in years? In the number of times one has thrown a flogger or cracked a whip? Is it defined by the number of partners...the number of long term relationships? If that is the case then how do I/we explain those who claim vast amounts of experience yet are essentially still clueless?

There are those who claim 30 years experience...but they leave out the minor detail of having had a 25 year vanilla marriage in that same time frame. Or the long time experienced Dominants who will only consider young or Newbie submissives, claiming that they don't want to have to undo what has been done, when what it really boils down to is the fact that they are intimidated by more experienced submissives because they are not strong enough or comfortable enough in their own dominance.

I have tried with Dominants who have had relatively little experience with poor results. But to be honest with you, I believe that the poor results were because of their lack of confidence in themself, the level that they allowed themself to be intimidated by my own experiences and their own personal level of comfort with their dominant nature.

On the flip side of that, I have met Dominants who have little experience who seem to exude dominance from their pores. No, I am not referring to those who are cocky or in your face...I am talking about those who possess that air of confidence and self-assuredness that is so unbelievably attractive. They have thought it through enough to be comfortable within their own skin.....and it shows.

I think that it is at this point where the factor that seems to make the most difference is the Nature vs. Nurture factor, the Natural vs. Created Dom....or whatever you wish to call it. At least for myself, I find that what attracts me most to a Dominant is the level that his dominance seems to be a part of his intrinsic nature. How comfortable he is with it. When he views me, is he looking up at me like in his mind he has put me with my level of experience up on some sort of pedestal.....or is he looking at me and understanding that no matter how many years or times I have done this, with him it would all be the first time? All new ground to cover...or conquer?

As others have stated here....no I would not volunteer to be the guinea pig for someone who has no experience with the tools of the trade. I do prefer someone who has some hands on experience in that department. But that does not mean that I will discount a Dominant based solely upon the fact that his level of experience does not match mine in terms of years. While I have no desire to "train my own Dom" and most likely would not consider someone who is very new, I have also come to understand that age and tenure do not necessarily equal experience....and they certainly do not equate to the level of dominance or lack thereof.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 1/8/2006 7:42:32 AM >

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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/8/2006 11:50:39 AM

Sunshine119

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Petruchio

Sometimes a sub has to teach her master, especially when he doesn't know or denies his nature.

"It's easier to teach a nice guy to dominate than to teach an abuser to be a nice guy."

And there are far too many "abusers" who hide in this lifestyle already. Petruchio, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Most men, I believe, are genetically programmed to be the dominant factor in relationships. Thousands of years of human relationships are not going to be erased in 50 years. Society has taught them that their feelings of domination are wrong and must be supressed. Therefore, we have a ton of metrosexuals walking around and very few are men or women are happy with the results.

Look at all of the backlash to the whole "equal power" movement. Fundamental Christian groups are teaching their men to take control of their families and be the primary decision makers (ie that doesn't mean that they don't take into account their wives opinions and use their wives knowledge). Fundamental Jewish and Muslim movements that stress the same are growing.

For that matter, there are Christian groups that teach husbands to spank their wives! While they don't actually get to the point of the domination we speak of, it is only a short jump.

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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/8/2006 12:18:59 PM

Sunshine119

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quote:

ORIGINAL: newflowers
i am often curious, at the very least, when i read or someone tells me that they have x years of experience -
newflowers

i have known an infamous Domme for most of my life who claims to have 34 years of experience. She tells everyone she has been a Dominatrix since she was 17 and is now 51. What she doesn't tell anyone is that, while she may have learned about BDSM at age 17, she married at age 21 and didn't practice anything even resembling BDSM throughout two marriages and an incarcination in a Federal Prison for two years. It was only in the last 10 years (after she got out of jail) that she got into the lifestyle....as a Pro. Suddenly she is doing edgy things that really should be left to those with more experience. When i talked to her about it, she says it is was all safe because "she read extensively about these procedures in a book".

Moral of the story: Question everything that looks like it may be deceptive.

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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/8/2006 1:14:55 PM

newflowers

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ehlovindom,

i see that i am the minority opinion here. Age is important to me - my oldest child is 27 - i am not at all interested in anyone who might be his contemporary. Additionally, part of what i seek is the control and authority - i couldn't do that with a straight face with someone so young - perhaps a failing or lack of character on my part, but when contacted by dominants who are significantly younger, my initial reaction is more like "the boy's hot wheels are in the closet." i find older men - mid to late forties through their fifties - ever so much more attractive - attractive both mentally and physically - and i am fortunate that there are a number who have come to this lifestyle later in life.

in my experience, when a dominant has a significant number of years of experience, he does have expectations of me that are more about his past interactions. and while i do wish to be found pleasing and have the ability and skill to please, "my 32nd sub always did it that way and i liked it best" is not something i wish to hear. not always, but it has happened enough time to make me uncomfortable. i seek a dominant partner, a man who is stronger, in control of himself and capable of controlling me, one who is more powerful and can be an authority. not in-your-face, chest thumping induced from too much testerone, but a man who has that power and confidence - it's not about proving and bragging - it is who he is. i have met men who do not participate in bdsm at all who have these qualities. my need is not about the number of years a man acknowldges that he has participated in or been an active member of bdsm play or relationships or community activities.

given the number of submissives who indicate that experience - and greater experience than they have is a must - it does seem the number of years of experience had and required should be part of profiles.

i also think that a concrete denotation of experience is needed - the number of years one has had the desire and/or interest, the number of online fantasies, the number of past relationships, the number of toys and lessons taken/time used? what actually qualifies a dominant to be "experience" beyond self-proclamation?

interesting topic - i look forward to reading more.

< Message edited by newflowers -- 1/8/2006 1:45:48 PM >

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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/8/2006 1:48:40 PM

newflowers

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quote:

On the flip side of that, I have met Dominants who have little experience who seem to exude dominance from their pores... I am talking about those who possess that air of confidence and self-assuredness that is so unbelievably attractive. They have thought it through enough to be comfortable within their own skin.....and it shows.

I think that it is at this point where the factor that seems to make the most difference is the Nature vs. Nurture factor, the Natural vs. Created Dom....or whatever you wish to call it. At least for myself, I find that what attracts me most to a Dominant is the level that his dominance seems to be a part of his intrinsic nature. How comfortable he is with it. .....or is he looking at me and understanding that no matter how many years or times I have done this, with him it would all be the first time? All new ground to cover...or conquer?

bravo and bravo erin - this is so it!

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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/8/2006 3:08:36 PM

ehlovindom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

Not to be picky, but I need a clarification. For YOUR definition of experience, are you tying it together with age?

I know some Masters and Dominants who are younger than me, but extremely experienced; and I know some who are older than me, but that I would never consider because of their lack of experience.

I am NOT necessarily tying experience with age but it can be a factor. Obviously someone who is 18 years of age will have fewer years experience than someone who is 28 IF that 28 year old has been in lifestyle longer than two or five years. And as some people have pointed out, you can be 40 years old and yet only been in lifestyle in last two years. So it is more a question that concerns probabilities, laws of averages and opportunities. On average, the older you are, the greater the probability that you have had more opportunities to have experience. Make any sense or is this "older" dom rambling on incoherently on a Sunday afternoon?

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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/8/2006 3:25:47 PM

ehlovindom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Wow, Interesting topic and an opportunity to verbalize some thoughts that have been bouncing around my head on this subject for some time now.

I hope that doesn't hurt too much!

quote:

If that is the case then how do I/we explain those who claim vast amounts of experience yet are essentially still clueless?

You/I can't but it is the same as everything else in life. Some people never get it. Some do. Some can but need the opportunity.

quote:

what it really boils down to is the fact that they are intimidated by more experienced submissives because they are not strong enough or comfortable enough in their own dominance.

Great point and very true but what can you say about the submissive who refuses to entertain the notion of the LED, the "limited experience dom"?

quote:

When he views me, is he looking up at me like in his mind he has put me with my level of experience up on some sort of pedestal.....or is he looking at me and understanding that no matter how many years or times I have done this, with him it would all be the first time? All new ground to cover...or conquer?

I think the LED would/should look at you as all new ground to cover and conquer! (great choice of words there.) Would that not be just as stimulating for the submissive as the experienced dom who brings to the table everything?

quote:

As others have stated here....no I would not volunteer to be the guinea pig for someone who has no experience with the tools of the trade.

Again, let me clear, by no means am I suggesting that anyone submit to being flogged for example, by someone who has never handled a flogger before. The key word here is SANE and that wouldn't be a prudent thing to do and I doubt any submissive with a few years experience would allow herself to get into that position, unless of course was not SANE!

But my question then poses a problem for submissives who have been in the lifestyle for many years and doms who haven't. As they age, their circle of possible partners will diminish in opposite age groups with the MED's (more experienced subs) seeking out older doms and the LED's (less experienced doms) seeking out younger submissives or those that have recently entered into the lifestyle.

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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/8/2006 3:36:36 PM

veronicaofML

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How important is it to you that your master be more experienced than you are? Would you enter into a relationship knowing that you would be helping him grow much more than he will be helping you?

=============
MY Mistress knows very little about the lifestyle...i have more time in the john than she does in the lobby...so to say.

but i dont care.
its HER domination..not mine.

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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/8/2006 6:12:04 PM

IrishMist

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quote:

Obviously someone who is 18 years of age will have fewer years experience than someone who is 28

No, you are missing my point :) I have known some who were close to that 18 age bracket; whose desires not only matched, but sometimes surpassed mine...but the difference was that THEY KNEW how to CONTROL it within themselves...and how to control it within me. I am not just talking about being able to dish out some pain in a controlled way...it's much more than that

On the other side though, I have known some who were 20 years older than me, been in the lifestyle since their 20's...and yet, I would never consider them as possible matches, much less play partners. They knew what they were doing, don't get me wrong...they were just lacking that iron clad control that would be needed for me to consider them.

So, my answer still remains the same...I would not pick someone who was less experienced than me.

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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/9/2006 12:14:38 AM

pettaurus

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quote:

How important is it to you that your master be more experienced than you are? Would you enter into a relationship knowing that you would be helping him grow much more than he will be helping you?

I haven't posted much, except when I have felt compelled. I felt compelled here. I am submissive, I discovered that over ten years ago. I have had both vanilla and D/s relationships in the past. No 24/7 D/s though. Never thought I wanted that, always rejected that. My how I've grown. Anyway, back to topic at hand.

I am six years older than Master. I will be turning BLAH, 30 this year. Our relationship started off vanilla. Although, I had told Him i was submissive to begin with, I dont think He quite grasped that at the time. Men! J/K. But, I saw the Dominant qualities in Him to begin with. I knew there was potential. When we decided to incorporate D/s. I wanted to make sure I was not Topping from the bottom. Yes, I bombarded Him with TONS of info on the topic. No, I did not just leave Him to flounder and figure it out all on His own. I was there to help Him learn, just as much as He was there to help me learn. Everyone has to start somewhere. What better place than with someone you love and adore?

My feelings. I am overjoyed everyday that He is allowing me to take this "journey" for lack of a better term, with Him. It is very special to me. It does not mean I am "training" Him like some would think. I hate that term training anyway. The goal is mutual satisfaction. He is not obeying me. He is doing what He wishes because He has found out, that He likes it just as much as I do. He thanks me often for helping Him discover the sadist in Him. And I thank Him for allowing me to enjoy His sadistic side. lol.

Will He grow more than me? I don't know. I have grown in leaps and bounds recently. Me, probably more than Him. So I dont think experience really is a dictating factor on how much you are going to be able to help the other person grow.

Experience doesnt matter. Willingness and openness do.

pet

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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/9/2006 6:27:26 AM

mistoferin

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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Wow, Interesting topic and an opportunity to verbalize some thoughts that have been bouncing around my head on this subject for some time now.

I hope that doesn't hurt too much!

Good thing I'm a masochist huh?

quote:

Great point and very true but what can you say about the submissive who refuses to entertain the notion of the LED, the "limited experience dom"?

While I understand the need for an experienced submissive to match with a Dominant of at least some experience, I believe that those who confine their options to only those with greater experience than themselves are seriously limiting their own options. Let's say, hypothetically of course, that a submissive with 15 years experience is searching within her state on collarme.....there are 240 Dominants listed in her state. Out of the 240 listed there are 30 who have equal or greater experience. She looks at those and realizes that out of the 30, only 8 of them attract her physically. Now you have to sort out the wankers, the chronically unemployed, the ones who still live with their mothers, the ones who are abusive or who have substance abuse issues.....yada, yada, yada. What are her options at this point?

quote:

I think the LED would/should look at you as all new ground to cover and conquer! (great choice of words there.) Would that not be just as stimulating for the submissive as the experienced dom who brings to the table everything?

Well yes it could and can be. People are individuals and no two Doms are ever going to have the same style or do things exactly the same way. You have to be open to those differences and find delight in their particular style. If you are constantly holding them up and comparing them to the dominants of your past, then you are setting yourself and them up for failure. Just as you want him to view you as new ground....you also have to come from that same perspective when viewing him (okay, except for the conquer part...lol).

quote:

But my question then poses a problem for submissives who have been in the lifestyle for many years and doms who haven't. As they age, their circle of possible partners will diminish in opposite age groups with the MED's (more experienced subs) seeking out older doms and the LED's (less experienced doms) seeking out younger submissives or those that have recently entered into the lifestyle.

Aha......and here you clearly see the dilemma. This is, unfortunately, the reality of the situation. What compounds the problem even more is that the more experienced doms will also seek out the younger and less experienced submissives. For the experienced dominant, finding an equal level of experience in their potential partners seems to be much less of an issue than it is for experienced submissives. They tend to enjoy in the newness of those less experienced, and less face it, they have that comfort zone because it is not their ass that is literally on the line. Thus, this further decreases the sheer numbers of potential partners for the experienced submissive who is searching.

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There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/9/2006 7:11:31 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ehlovindom
How important is it to you that your master be more experienced than you are? Would you enter into a relationship knowing that you would be helping him grow much more than he will be helping you?

Your question doesn't explain "more experienced in WHAT?" but I'm going to take a guess here that you mean experienced in the scene.

No, it is not essential for the person to own me to have had as much or more experience in the scene as I have.

However, having a good amount of experience is.

Every relationship has to grow with itself. Relationships that have one person thinking they have nothing to teach the other person or that they won't learn things together just seems very clinical and cold to me. It can work, but that's not intimacy to me.

YMMV.

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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/9/2006 10:44:31 AM

subspaceinMD

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Where would you suggest that someone wanting to learn how to be dominant start out at?

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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/9/2006 11:55:07 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subspaceinMD

Where would you suggest that someone wanting to learn how to be dominant start out at?

Within themselves. Then, talking to others. Then, experimenting and exploring slowly. Always going back within themselves to see how it resonates and fits.

That's pretty much the standard way for anyone to explore any new aspect of themselves.

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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/9/2006 12:25:33 PM

JohnWarren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subspaceinMD

Where would you suggest that someone wanting to learn how to be dominant start out at?

The heart is a good place.

First, examine the needs and the fantasies; then look at those that can be ethically and legally accomplished. From there, it is relatively easy to find the tools and techniques, but until the immediate end is known, one has a tendency to thrash about in generalities.

"What do I need?" "What to I want?" Those are the signposts.

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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/9/2006 2:00:57 PM

sunshine333

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i'm sure it's very typical for a submissive to want her dominant to be more experienced than she. the dominant, theorhetically, is the leader ... the guide ... the teacher. and so how can he lead a girl to a place she's already been ... and then, take her further?

one thing to keep in mind is that with each new relationship ... you are new to each other. it is a brand new experience. (i'm refering to a lifestyle relationship, not scening.) so, in that way, you're both new. you both have to learn each other and get familiar with each other's ways. a different sort of effort will have to be made to keep the dynamic in tact. the submissive needs to be patient and accepting ... and the dominant needs to pay extra close attention to the messages he's getting from his submissive.

if two people are compatible on their desires, interests and goals of a relationship ... if their lives (as they are already) are in alignment with one another ... and if there is a genuine interest in each other as people ... i believe it's possible to create a very strong D/s or M/s relationship. also, in my opinion, it is admirable for the dominant to be mentored by someone who he respects and admires.

humbly,
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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/9/2006 2:19:30 PM

KatyLied

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quote:

How important is it to you that your master be more experienced than you are? Would you enter into a relationship knowing that you would be helping him grow much more than he will be helping you?

ehlovindom - thank you for the nod in your op.

About your question. It works better for me to have someone knowledgeable. Yes, I want him to grow and hope that I can provide that in some form. It's important for me to learn new things, experience new things, and I know I would resent someone I had to "train" to be a Dom. But that doesn't close the door on sharing many new experiences together...that's part of the fun and bonding.

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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/9/2006 8:02:49 PM

ehlovindom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

Obviously someone who is 18 years of age will have fewer years experience than someone who is 28

No, you are missing my point :) I have known some who were close to that 18 age bracket; whose desires not only matched, but sometimes surpassed mine...but the difference was that THEY KNEW how to CONTROL it within themselves...and how to control it within me. I am not just talking about being able to dish out some pain in a controlled way...it's much more than that

Sorry, I thought I got your point! Really! Obviously there are those regardless of actual physical age that just have IT. The IT being the ability to control and dominate. I get IT! :)

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RE: The more experienced submissive - 1/9/2006 8:09:31 PM

ehlovindom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pettaurus

quote:

How important is it to you that your master be more experienced than you are? Would you enter into a relationship knowing that you would be helping him grow much more than he will be helping you?

I haven't posted much, except when I have felt compelled. I felt compelled here. Will He grow more than me? I don't know. I have grown in leaps and bounds recently. Me, probably more than Him. So I dont think experience really is a dictating factor on how much you are going to be able to help the other person grow.

Experience doesnt matter. Willingness and openness do.

pet

Thanks pet, for taking the time to post and to share what appears to be a great relationship. I think you are dead on when you talk about willingness and openness as opposed to experienced. Best to you both.

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