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bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 12:08:35 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090121/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_guantanamo

...so is this the beginning of the end for this controversial institution?
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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 12:10:59 PM   
Raechard


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From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		Could be the end of the beginning.

~ Ray Winston
 
Edited to add:
 
To the casual observer this is a political move by a political figure to distance himself from the previous administration.
 
The problem of what to do with these people still remains for him and this is just a "give me time to think about it." answer.


< Message edited by Raechard -- 1/21/2009 12:22:37 PM >

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 12:31:57 PM   
Mercnbeth


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~ Fast Reply ~
There's a general belief that closing Gitmo marks the end of torture by the US, its allies, and/or its enemies?

It's like closing the Greenbriar as the place where Congress would convene in the event of a disaster in Washington DC. It may not exist anymore, but there's doubt it doesn't exist someplace else?

As with any of these 'disclosures', it represents a political agenda target NOT any philosophical or practical change of method. If they closed down every police station 'interview' room - would that mean that nobody ever gets slapped by a cop or happens to trip while being escorted into the police station. The US, and the world, is what it is, and no law will help you when its just you and your interrogators. So Gitmo closes - it just means the they'll start charging and giving tours to the fools who believe what occurred there isn't happening anymore under the auspices, funding, or complicity of the USA. 

It isn't - Publicly.

Whether that bothers you, or you feel its a good thing that keeps you safe from the 'boogie-man' in all its machinations isn't important. Just don't let this, or any other facade change, distract you from that reality.

Just in case the reference is too obscure:
quote:

Nestled within West Virginia’s Allegheny Mountains, the Greenbrier http://www.greenbrier.com/site/ has hosted a crowd of commanders in chief during its various incarnations.
Of special note is the perennially cool Project Greek Island Bunker Tour. Greek Island” was code for an enormous bomb shelter, big enough to house both the Senate and Congress in the event of a nuclear attack.
Built in 1958 under the guise of additions to the hotel itself, this bureaucratic Bat Cave was known to none until a spoilsport at The Washington Post blew the bunker’s cover in 1992. Since then, the complex has been available for tours, preserved in all its Cold War splendor. Source: http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyle/travel/2009/01/11/2009-01-11_west_virginias_greenbrier_resort_is_a_ca.html 


A bit of personal trivia...

I happened to be there for a business convention the day this story broke in 1992. The steel doors were amazing to see in person. They didn't open it up for tours at the time, but seeing the entrance gave an indication of the scale of the facility.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 1/21/2009 12:59:43 PM >

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 12:32:22 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

To the casual observer this is a political move by a political figure to distance himself from the previous administration.



Guantanamo is a powerful symbol of the previous administration's disregard for the Constitution. It makes sense that one of Obama's first executive decisions would be to start dismantling it: as you know, it's been nothing but a disgrace. I'm happy to hear this news.


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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 12:36:39 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

There's a general belief that closing Gitmo marks the end of torture by the US, its allies, and/or its enemies?



....not exactly what it means to me Merc. It seems to suggest that the US will no longer publically condone torture as a means of intelligence gathering and, more importantly, it will step back over the line that marks the divider between those who respect law and those who make it up as they go along.
Western civilisation has developed under a framework of law that contains ideas like no lengthy detention without trial, disclosure of evidence against a suspect, innocent until proven guilty and habeas corpus. Gitmo ignored most of that list.....closing it is a step back towards civilisation.

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 12:49:25 PM   
Raechard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Guantanamo is a powerful symbol of the previous administration's disregard for the Constitution. It makes sense that one of Obama's first executive decisions would be to start dismantling it: as you know, it's been nothing but a disgrace. I'm happy to hear this news.

Yes it was a great gesture and a great first step to do it so soon into his administration.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Me
The problem of what to do with these people still remains for him and this is just a "give me time to think about it." answer.

Raechard that isn't a problem, what do you normally do with people suspected of being involved in a crime, even those suspected of being involved in a crime where the evidence could give others technical ideas of how to commit the same crime: the answer is an open fair trial.

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 12:53:58 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

not exactly what it means to me Merc. It seems to suggest that the US will no longer publically condone torture as a means of intelligence gathering and, more importantly, it will step back over the line that marks the divider between those who respect law and those who make it up as they go along.
Ah, as I stated "Publicly". 

There's no assumption that the practices are forever over. It's another one of those 'out of sight - out of mind' situations; fine as long as their isn't place to point to where is may be occurring and say "that's bad!"

quote:

Western civilisation has developed under a framework of law that contains ideas like no lengthy detention without trial, disclosure of evidence against a suspect, innocent until proven guilty and habeas corpus.
There's that pesky "Western civilization" standard being applied without a agreed upon definition. First, it is not universal standard and its prejudicial to put the world on those terms.

"Western Civilization" is blamed for the genocide of Native Americans, and the destruction of their culture and civilization. Choosing this particular example as a standard of 'good' to be applied globally and to all people; would seem to ignore the rest that comes with it. 

This particular place is closed - I'm pleased. I'm similarly pleased, and similarly certain, that it doesn't change a thing; and there are countless 'Gitmos' in the world both 'Western Civilized' and non; still conduction business as usual.

Do you believe otherwise?

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 1:01:59 PM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		"This particular place is closed - I'm pleased. I'm similarly pleased, and similarly certain, that it doesn't change a thing; and there are countless 'Gitmos' in the world both 'Western Civilized' and non; still conduction business as usual.

Do you believe otherwise?"

Yes.  Organized torture fests such as Gitmo become training grounds for institutional sadism.  While torture in other areas of the globe will no doubt occur, it will not have official sanction and average troops will not be stationed there learning that torture is acceptable behavior. 

This is a critical mass argument.  Its much easier to for an individual to know where the line is concerning torture when he/she doesn't see his/her buddies doing the same thing with superior officers turning a blind eye.

Sam

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 1:12:00 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Any proof of that Merc?

Why do you Conservatives blend,confuse and mash issues together.Is it on purpose,or maybe projecting?

Americans have the capacity to discern the distinctions between illegal trials and torture,extraordinary rendition and illegally obtained evidence/coerced confessions and their differences.

The neo-con view that all this stuff is to complicated for Americans to understand is a false one.



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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 1:18:01 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Yes.  Organized torture fests such as Gitmo become training grounds for institutional sadism.  While torture in other areas of the globe will no doubt occur, it will not have official sanction and average troops will not be stationed there learning that torture is acceptable behavior. 


Well, flying in the face of that - Not ONE of the people involved in Abu Ghraib ever worked, served, or was trained at Gitmo. Although punished appropriately, it seems that not much training is necessary with or without sanction. However, it should be noted even on this, the first day of the OE, the sanctioned killing of our protagonists in Iraq is okay - but we've closed the facility were the crime of having a Koran in the bathroom was committed - Change!

As long as you stipulate, "torture in other areas of the globe will no doubt occur", we are in agreement. "Official sanction", sometimes just requires dropping off, or 'loosing' the prisoner in question in the right place at the right time for other folks to do the messy work.

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 1:32:54 PM   
Cagey18


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

As with any of these 'disclosures', it represents a political agenda target NOT any philosophical or practical change of method.


Clearly you missed the recent news that Obama's Attorney General (unlike, say, Bush's Alberto Gonzales or Donald Rumsfeld) repudiated prior stances on torture, and failed to acquaint yourself with Obama's philosophy on torture before making such a misguided post.

There will be no repetitions of Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo under our new President Obama.  Period.

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 1:34:02 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Any proof of that Merc?

Why do you Conservatives blend,confuse and mash issues together.Is it on purpose,or maybe projecting?

Americans have the capacity to discern the distinctions between illegal trials and torture,extraordinary rendition and illegally obtained evidence/coerced confessions and their differences.

The neo-con view that all this stuff is to complicated for Americans to understand is a false one.

Proof of what? What I believe to be true? Proof would be disclosure of a secret the I have no access. It's like you believing in the difference between parties, I don't see it, but I don't think you're not entitled to do so.

However, I'd be interested to see you, for one, answer directly - you believe the closing of Gitmo represents no torture is being conducted by, or on behalf of the USA?

If you are that naive you may really believe everything else you post, and I no longer will take it as agenda based, but instead as a total disassociation with reality.
quote:

Americans have the capacity to discern the distinctions between illegal trials and torture,extraordinary rendition and illegally obtained evidence/coerced confessions and their differences.

The neo-con view that all this stuff is to complicated for Americans to understand is a false one.


First a point of order...
You use it so often like it represents a meaningful issue or explains something, but what the hell do you mean by 'neo-con'? I know what the general reference is, but with you, it seems to be a moving target depending on what, or whom, you're trying to label or insult? Not saying that I'm not one - sometimes I sure am. Based on other's opinion, I know I'm also a extreme left wing liberal. I enjoy the ocean of opinion that allows me to swim. If it helps you, or them, organize their debate point better - I'm grateful to expedite things by accepting the label, but for future reference what do you mean by it, and should I just stipulate to being one - to save you time in the future?

Back on point...

Where is any of that referenced in anything I said. I say it's simple - NOT complicated in the least. I'm sure the some, if not most, of the general public understands that torture is still going on and they can discern whatever they like and have their own opinion regarding its benefit, or lack of same.

The point was - Gitmo was a political target - not a collateral one, and not having any dramatic impact. Image was addressed, like much of the campaign, not substance.

Edited to Add:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagney18
There will be no repetitions of Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo under our new President Obama.  Period.
Agreed - not that we'll hear about anyway. Then again, we didn't hear President Kennedy had Marilyn Monroe naked in the White House pool until long after they were both dead.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 1/21/2009 1:36:41 PM >

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 1:44:09 PM   
Cagey18


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagney18
There will be no repetitions of Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo under our new President Obama.  Period.
Agreed - not that we'll hear about anyway.


Apparently you're missing the dichotomy between your substanceless insinuations, and the known positions of Obama, Biden and the new AG.

Not to mention the speed of the Internet and cell phone pictures.


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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 1:58:46 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagney18
There will be no repetitions of Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo under our new President Obama.  Period.
Agreed - not that we'll hear about anyway.


Apparently you're missing the dichotomy between your substanceless insinuations, and the known positions of Obama, Biden and the new AG.

Not to mention the speed of the Internet and cell phone pictures.
Your naiveté overwhelms me along with all other historical evidence to the contrary. Enjoy your wonderful world, and NEVER let any reality change that. 

PS - Here's a clue on VP Biden - He's admitted to plagiarizing; you know - like lying about what you wrote? Good enough to get you baned from CM, but obviously qualifying you for the VP spot. Can you trust him?
quote:

Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr., fighting to salvage his Presidential campaign, today acknowledged ''a mistake'' in his youth, when he plagiarized a law review article for a paper he wrote in his first year at law school.
Mr. Biden insisted, however, that he had done nothing ''malevolent,'' that he had simply misunderstood the need to cite sources carefully. And he asserted that another controversy, concerning recent reports of his using material from others' speeches without attribution, was ''much ado about nothing.''
Source: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE3DB143FF93BA2575AC0A961948260 
Granted, a 'youthful' inconsequential, mistake, with no "malevolent" intent as he said at the time. All's forgiven - All's forgotten. A mere point of fact - one of those annoying, terrible, ones that you have to reconcile with the rest, but a fact none the less.

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 2:03:47 PM   
Cagey18


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagney18
There will be no repetitions of Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo under our new President Obama.  Period.
Agreed - not that we'll hear about anyway.


Apparently you're missing the dichotomy between your substanceless insinuations, and the known positions of Obama, Biden and the new AG.

Not to mention the speed of the Internet and cell phone pictures.
Your naiveté overwhelms me along with all other historical evidence to the contrary. Enjoy your wonderful world, and NEVER let any reality change that. 

Your naiveté about cell phone pictures and the Internet are equally overwhelming.

Enjoy your wonderful world in which the US approves torture.


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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 2:14:44 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagney18
There will be no repetitions of Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo under our new President Obama.  Period.
Agreed - not that we'll hear about anyway.

Apparently you're missing the dichotomy between your substanceless insinuations, and the known positions of Obama, Biden and the new AG.

Not to mention the speed of the Internet and cell phone pictures.
Your naiveté overwhelms me along with all other historical evidence to the contrary. Enjoy your wonderful world, and NEVER let any reality change that. 

Your naiveté about cell phone pictures and the Internet are equally overwhelming.
Enjoy your wonderful world in which the US approves torture.

I also congratulate your selective quoting skills. WHAT - no rebuttal on truth coming from an admitted plagiarist!?

It will serve you well in the upcoming months to be similarly selective with your news sources. Properly motivated as you are, you'll make a fine head-bobber.

Be well my spongy friend!

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 2:19:54 PM   
Cagey18


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I also congratulate your selective quoting skills. WHAT - no rebuttal on truth coming from an admitted plagiarist!?

It will serve you well in the upcoming months to be similarly selective with your news sources. Properly motivated as you are, you'll make a fine head-bobber.

Be well my spongy friend!


I couldn't care less about Biden's first-year law school paper. That's the best you got?  41 years ago?  Great work Sherlock!

I also congratulate you on your failure to respond to my post re your naiveté.  I would think Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo are more important than Joe Biden's 1968 law school paper.  Not surprised though.


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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 2:22:59 PM   
Evility


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Status: offline 		It's a huge and disgraceful slap in the face to every family that lost loved ones on 9/11/01. Up until a few months ago I was worried mostly about what Obama was going to do to the economy (and I still am) but now my main concern is for national security. I am actually starting to question this guy's allegiance if not his intelligence.

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 2:24:06 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		How is it 'a slap in the face of the 9/11 victims'? 

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 2:36:19 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Ah, so with you time excuses plagiarism. So if you presented say, an obscure Shakespeare play as your own - you should suffer no consequence? Okay - That's just you I guess.

Gitmo and Abu Ghraib, as important as VP Biden's plagiarism? Well, considering that one's being closed, the other resulted in convictions, and the plagiarist was elected VP - I'd say someone else made that decision not me. Were it my choice - no he would have been disqualified - however, I don't expect that level of integrity be required by all.

BTW - there was no work involved. I read a lot, and remember most.

However, I'll put to you the same question that 59 didn't answer."However, I'd be interested to see you, for one, answer directly - you believe the closing of Gitmo represents no torture is being conducted by, or on behalf of the USA?"

You believe that? You believe that cell phone technology prevents that? Cell phone in one of the many remote places in the world where people are brought naked, and blindfolded? You think that's over? REALLY? Bringing it local, you think that any prisoner taken and 'interrogated' at a local police station thinks a cell phone will save him. "Can you hear me now?" doesn't work in every corner of the world and in reality internet service doesn't exist as it does on 24. Sorry, but Rodney King is an example of exception - not the rule.

There is no naiveté involved in seeing the world for what it is. It takes a whole lot of it,to perceive all torture done by, or on behalf of the USA, concluded by the closing of Gitmo.

Damn - if there are a lot of you around, I'm bringing back the 'Pet Rock'.

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