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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 2:38:39 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		I am relieved that the process for closing this facility and sending the prisoners to appropriate places has begun.  As to where they will go, the initial plan is quoted in the OP-

"The draft requires a review of each Guantanamo case to decide whether the detainees should be returned to their home countries, released, transferred elsewhere or sent to another U.S. prison."

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 2:53:08 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

There's that pesky "Western civilization" standard being applied without a agreed upon definition. First, it is not universal standard and its prejudicial to put the world on those terms.

"Western Civilization" is blamed for the genocide of Native Americans, and the destruction of their culture and civilization. Choosing this particular example as a standard of 'good' to be applied globally and to all people; would seem to ignore the rest that comes with it. 


.....perhaps a poor choice of phrase. However you have ducked the main point. Nations usually defined as 'the West' all operate under rule of law. While there are local differences, there are clear similarities. Things like the presumption of innocence and the right to know what it is you're accused of. Gitmo flew in the face of these concepts publically. It was the blatant disregard of these principles that did the damage. Non-blatant disregard may  still be damaging, but not as much.

quote:

This particular place is closed - I'm pleased. I'm similarly pleased, and similarly certain, that it doesn't change a thing; and there are countless 'Gitmos' in the world both 'Western Civilized' and non; still conduction business as usual.

Do you believe otherwise?


....nope. Torture will still be used in some places and at some times. What has changed is that a nation that calls itself 'the land of the free' is beginning to realise that it sets an example.....whether it wants to or not......and that to set a good example is much better than setting a bad one.

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 3:01:34 PM   
MarsBonfire


Posts: 1034
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline 		Yup. Torture will always exist somewhere in the world.

However, the United States should simply hold itself above the behavior of some backwater bannana republic. Besides, there are far better ways of getting information out of someone, without having to raise a finger against them... there are countless drugs, mindgames, and threats against family and friends that would work just as well. Simple boredom will cause someone to crack faster than standing them up on a box with wires attached to their nuts.

But, considering the type of forum this is, I hardly expect the bulk of the responses to be against torture... we seem to have a higher percentage on here that find torture a fun and pleasing hobby.

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 3:16:13 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		How about Biden's speech about ten years ago when he used Neil Kinnock's words as his own?
Where are they going to put these animals?
I sure don't want them in my neighborhood although some of the rednecks around here would, they'd chain a 100 pound cee-ment block around their necks and enter them in the "gator races."
We need to abide by the Geneva Conventions and shoot these savages as spies.


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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 3:18:21 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Torture will still be used in some places and at some times.
Thank you - That's the simple bottom line; and is a pragmatic fact. Remove all the rest as BS and rationalization from both sides and we are completely aligned in our belief.

Take a quick look at everything I've said on this thread. I never said that closing Gitmo was a bad thing, I just don't believe it is anything more than a distrating facade being removed.

quote:

What has changed is that a nation that calls itself 'the land of the free' is beginning to realise that it sets an example.....whether it wants to or not......and that to set a good example is much better than setting a bad one.
So torture is now not done at Gitmo and nobody from Congress will get to visit there to generate votes specific to their interpretation of what is going on there. Don't you find it curious that both people both 'pro' and 'anti' Gitmo came back from there finding exactly what served their reelection rhetoric?

Europe and the rest of the world can't point to Gitmo. There aren't any other issues or examples that fly in the face of your representation that the US isn't accurate when it says we are "the land of the free"? How many are on 'death row'? Who has the largest percentage of its citizens incarcerated?

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 3:24:58 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		...thing is Merc, Gitmo isn't for me about torture per se. What it represents for me is the blatant disregard for law as most of us understand it.  Torture is a controversial subject, but not one that i inextricably link with Gitmo. Gitmo had to be placed in Cuba because it would have been ruled illegal in the US, the right to  fair trial doesn't apply to one nationality...it applies to the court system. The clear double standard involved is what damages the reputation of the USA. i believe the USA is better than that...

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 3:46:02 PM   
shannie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Any proof of that Merc?

Why do you Conservatives blend,confuse and mash issues together.Is it on purpose,or maybe projecting?

Americans have the capacity to discern the distinctions between illegal trials and torture,extraordinary rendition and illegally obtained evidence/coerced confessions and their differences.

The neo-con view that all this stuff is to complicated for Americans to understand is a false one.



Why is it "conservative" to point out that there are vast abuses being committed by military and law enforcement in this country that will not be addressed by the closing of Gitmo?  This reminds me of the "Republicans" who dismissed every criticism of Bush as "liberal nonsense."



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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 3:49:18 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...thing is Merc, Gitmo isn't for me about torture per se. What it represents for me is the blatant disregard for law as most of us understand it.  Torture is a controversial subject, but not one that i inextricably link with Gitmo. Gitmo had to be placed in Cuba because it would have been ruled illegal in the US, the right to  fair trial doesn't apply to one nationality...it applies to the court system. The clear double standard involved is what damages the reputation of the USA. i believe the USA is better than that...
Yes, but philo, everything you point out goes on whether Gitmo exists or not. Because you can't see it, and it's no longer going on in a place you can point to, doesn't change that. 

Were Gitmo the only US Base outside you'd have a better case for the double standard being gone; but it isn't. It isn't a double standard - your point about it being outside US jurisdiction would point to being just the opposite. The 'standard' applying inside the US, local 'standards' applying outside the US. It wouldn't take much research to say what's happened in Gitmo is below the 'standards' of torture in Cuba.

I know, I know, the next argument will be "shouldn't the US be better than Cuba?". Should it or not though goes back to those 'Western Standard' prejudices again. The best rationalization to present is that the US lives up to the 'standards' of the local jurisdiction as long as it suits their purpose. Pretty 'Ugly American' but fitting in this case.

You speak of 'ideals'. Ideally, they'd be adhered to 100% of the time, but then they wouldn't be ideals, they'd be reality. We both agree that is not the case, not for the US, and not for anyplace in the world as it exists today. Gitmo's brand name torture is closed, not the industry, and the US isn't out of the business even if they outsource the work. Ideally it should be. Realistically is isn't.

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 3:51:55 PM   
Cagey18


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Ah, so with you time excuses plagiarism. So if you presented say, an obscure Shakespeare play as your own - you should suffer no consequence? Okay - That's just you I guess.

Not if I did it 40 years ago in grade school.  I would have long ago been punished.  (Biden got an F for the course btw--so much for 'no consequence'.  Read up before you post next time, and you won't look so silly)


quote:

Gitmo and Abu Ghraib, as important as VP Biden's plagiarism? Well, considering that one's being closed, the other resulted in convictions, and the plagiarist was elected VP - I'd say someone else made that decision not me. Were it my choice - no he would have been disqualified - however, I don't expect that level of integrity be required by all.

Damn good thing such choices aren't yours.  And damn good thing Obama didn't have such a lopsided view as yours.


quote:

However, I'll put to you the same question that 59 didn't answer."However, I'd be interested to see you, for one, answer directly - you believe the closing of Gitmo represents no torture is being conducted by, or on behalf of the USA?"

Nope.  Obama's philosophy re torture already covers that. 


quote:

You believe that? You believe that cell phone technology prevents that? Cell phone in one of the many remote places in the world where people are brought naked, and blindfolded? You think that's over?

Are you really that naive, that you think media coverage and telecommunication are the same as in Kennedy's era?  Are you really that ignorant, to not realize that "cell phone technology" is in fact what brought down Abu Ghraib around Rumsfelds' ears?


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 4:32:35 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		How do you reason that cell phones and the internet saves anyone from being kidnapped, tortured, and never heard from again, especially in an enemy combatant situation. You have to have a cell phone AND internet access to make that happen. Excluding the subject at hand - why then is there any non-consensual torture, or kidnapping occurring since these things in common usage would guarantee eventually disclosure and serve to protect an individual from that, according to you? Do you believe that? Really? Come on - you're just trying real hard to convince yourself into believing that - right? 

Tell 'ya what - Here's a proposed experiment - Forget about a remote area of the world, just for fun, meet me in LA and see if anyone gets a cell picture or hears over the internet, how, or if, you were tortured.

Cell phones may have been the disclosing cause of Abu Ghraib; but they were taken as 'trophies' by the 'inexperienced' solder guards not the 'experts'. Or do you think that a cell phone souvenir picture is taken of torture occurring in Afghanistan.

I would hope that our President has more integrity than both of us, his choice of a plagiarist not being indicative of it, nor his other choice of submitting a tax evader into a high appointed position. Or is that also "yesterday's news".

Except 40 years ago it wasn't grade school for VP Biden it was college and law school. Some places would have expelled him. I saw no reason to point out that VP Biden got an 'F' for plagiarism. It was in the link which I would expect everyone would read. However you point of time reference is well taken; if it happened today, consistent with the times and treads; he'd have been made valedictorian and maybe he'd be President instead of Obama.

Here's a hint - next time you think you have a legitimate point, you'll make it better by not employing juvenile name calling. You come off as simple, and you seem to be a person of some conviction, wrong in my opinion though they be.
quote:

Nope.  Obama's philosophy re torture already covers that. 

However, thank you for your direct answer, we disagree but at least you have more courage that '59' in that regard.

(in reply to Cagey18)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 4:44:37 PM   
Cagey18


Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

How do you reason that cell phones and the internet saves anyone from being kidnapped, tortured, and never heard from again, especially in an enemy combatant situation.

Uh, dude?  You're really confused now.  We were talking about news of torture getting out, not prevention of torture.  Try and keep up.

quote:

Except 40 years ago it wasn't grade school for VP Biden it was college and law school.

You asked if I were to present a Shakespearean play.  40 years ago, I was in grade school.  Again, try and keep up. 

quote:

Here's a hint - next time you think you have a legitimate point, you'll make it better by not employing juvenile name calling.

What name did I call you, exactly?



< Message edited by Cagey18 -- 1/21/2009 4:50:54 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 5:04:02 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

We were talking about news of torture getting out, not prevention of torture.  Try and keep up.

I'll try - but you know - you are just sooooo quick, I can't promise you.

I now have a clear understanding of your position and your reference to cell phones and the internet. According your latest post, they help in getting "news of torture". No disagreement there. However, if "news of torture" doesn't get out does it mean it didn't? That being the case - Okay - I agree with you, I doubt there will be any "news of torture" under the Obama Administration.

I hope you had some 'beep beep' noises going as you backed that truck up.

quote:

You asked if I were to present a Shakespearean play.  40 years ago, I was in grade school.
 Yeah - but did you graduate? Too easy - sorry.

The subject was, and is Gitmo, we touched upon the integrity of one of the men responsible for insuring your standards for the US are adhered. One of those men is VP Biden. The same man who, 40 years ago, plagiarized. It was about Biden - not you. You made an issue of it happening a long time ago. It makes a difference to you - another thing we don't agree on; integrity is - or isn't.
quote:

What name did I call you
Assuming you did graduate - disagreement does not define 'ignorance'; and using the term only reflects on you lack of confidence. Feel free to disagree.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 5:14:12 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Don't hold your breath on him answering Merc. He has dodged and ignored direct questions so often lately, it is becoming a habit.

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 5:16:17 PM   
Cagey18


Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

We were talking about news of torture getting out, not prevention of torture.  Try and keep up.

I'll try - but you know - you are just sooooo quick, I can't promise you.

I now have a clear understanding of your position and your reference to cell phones and the internet. According your latest post, they help in getting "news of torture". No disagreement there. However, if "news of torture" doesn't get out does it mean it didn't? That being the case - Okay - I agree with you, I doubt there will be any "news of torture" under the Obama Administration.

I hope you had some 'beep beep' noises going as you backed that truck up.

Actually you're the one backing up, since it was you who made the comparison about Kennedy and the media.  Me, I've stayed on track.  Do you need help finding your post in this thread?


quote:

quote:

You asked if I were to present a Shakespearean play.  40 years ago, I was in grade school.
 Yeah - but did you graduate? Too easy - sorry.

The subject was, and is Gitmo, we touched upon the integrity of one of the men responsible for insuring your standards for the US are adhered. One of those men is VP Biden. The same man who, 40 years ago, plagiarized. It was about Biden - not you. You made an issue of it happening a long time ago. It makes a difference to you - another thing we don't agree on; integrity is - or isn't.

Again, good thing that Obama doesn't have as lopsided a view of Biden as you do.


quote:

quote:

What name did I call you
Assuming you did graduate - disagreement does not define 'ignorance'; and using the term only reflects on you lack of confidence. Feel free to disagree.

Again, did I call you a name?  I'll be happy to refer you to an online dictionary for the definition of 'ignorant' (hint: it's an adjective, not a noun as a 'name' would be).  Find where I used it above, and you might realize the accuracy of its use.


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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 5:18:00 PM   
Cagey18


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Joined: 9/7/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Don't hold your breath on him answering Merc. He has dodged and ignored direct questions so often lately, it is becoming a habit.

Ya got any proof of that Charlie?

Thought not.



(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 5:39:16 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		"The point was - Gitmo was a political target - not a collateral one, and not having any dramatic impact. Image was addressed, like much of the campaign, not substance."

Untrue.  In response to your earlier point-closing the most egregious example of America's torture chamber is not merely political theater- and it does send a clear message to the world.  Or have you forgotten the lessons of the cold war where one side had massive prisons, a controlled press, massive armies, and a legal system that was the envy of none versus the Western democracies which had renounced torture, had a free press, and a semi working legal system.  Who won?

Obama's choices have been pragmatic to date- and torture doesn't work.  The major accomplishment of Gitmo was to harden Iraqi resolve, not stopping some half mythical terrorist plots against this country.  As in the cold war, hearts and minds are far more important than nuclear weapons and bullets- and a torture facility is a priceless gift to the enemy.  Furthermore it weakened our troops.  It's disheartening to be fighting for the right to torture people, and some of the troops over in Iraq have certainly befriended local Iraqi civilians.  You don't think those troops would feel sick to their stomach knowing that Gitmo exists?  We're supposed to be the good guys.  The Germans and Japanese tortured people in WWII- we didn't.  (for the most part, that's true.  Torture was condoned at the top of the Axis administration, but not by the Allies.) The lack of a direct link between Gitmo and Abu Ghraib is specious- word gets around- and the laxity that encouraged our troops to torture Iraqi civilians came from the top.

On an aside- I'd point out that taking a look at the link on the Geithner thread might be informative- since it seems more likely that rather than  Geithner being a tax evader, he's run afoul of ambiguous IRS regulations while following the advice of an accountant.  And we all know that all IRS regulations are easily understood, models of clarity, and only require a few minutes of calculation to solve any question.

I must admit, from my perspective Merc- your viewpoint seems to be that administrations don't matter- that politics as usual proceeds no matter who is in power.   IIRC didn't you post that you voted for neither candidate?  Did you write in somebody?  I will point out that this cynical view removes the responsibility of choice from citizens and also ignores the lessons of history- which show that administrations do matter a great deal in terms of what they accomplish.  Extrapolating a bit further- would Al Gore have lead us to the same position that we're in now?  Because if Obama's closure of Gitmo is only political theater- I'm hard pressed to come up with something that has substance.

Sam

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 5:46:33 PM   
Cagey18


Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
Status: offline 		Damn good post samboct.  Well said.

quote:

would Al Gore have lead us to the same position that we're in now?


For starters, he wouldn't have bombed Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, and wasted hundreds of billions of dollars in the process.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 5:59:19 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Closing Gitmo is easy.  The hard part is determining what to do with the inmates.

The Bush administration went out of its way to characterize the inmates as hardened terrorists, and to suppress any evidence for or against their stance.  So we have dozens of people that have been held for years without trial - I assume that Bush thought he could simply torture them, get usable information, and act on it quickly.  Like so many of his other plans, there was no Plan B, and we simply ended up holding people with no charges brought against them.

Many of them have confessed under torture, which would be inadmissible under US or international law.  This will be a lightning rod if/when those confessions are ruled inadmissible and they are freed...


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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 6:05:56 PM   
Cagey18


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Joined: 9/7/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Closing Gitmo is easy.  The hard part is determining what to do with the inmates.

The Bush administration went out of its way to characterize the inmates as hardened terrorists, and to suppress any evidence for or against their stance. 

Not to mention suppressing access to a public defender, right to a speedy trial, Geneva-convention rights, etc., etc...

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/21/2009 6:14:02 PM   
Coldwarrior57


Posts: 297
Joined: 12/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

To the casual observer this is a political move by a political figure to distance himself from the previous administration.



Guantanamo is a powerful symbol of the previous administration's disregard for the Constitution. It makes sense that one of Obama's first executive decisions would be to start dismantling it: as you know, it's been nothing but a disgrace. I'm happy to hear this news.

The constitution is for US citizens NOT the world!
read the preable last line  "FOR US AND OUT POSTERITY!"
doesnt say for us and the entire world.
Great get rid of GITMO no more prisoners so what then ?
Summary executions in the field?

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 40
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