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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/22/2009 11:05:05 AM   
Cagey18


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Hey SpongeBob, everyone is entitled to an opinion.


Not true.  To quote Harlan Ellison, everyone is entitled to an informed opinion.



Cagey, don't you have *your own* opinion?
What's with the obscure referances?
Oh yeah, I'm going to "adjust" my thinking because of  one, "Harlan Ellison."
You may have noticed that I don't cite a lot of "links", I give you my opinion, not someone else's.
I haven't done a "research paper" in twenty years.


Sure I do.  My opinion is that you should adjust your thinking because of one Harlan Ellison. 


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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/22/2009 11:45:32 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

O59, don't think that's an easy deal either. Dismantling the place also costs money, This issue has also been raised about Iraq. Just transpoting everything we took and built there would cost quite a bit, in the case of certain things, more than it's worth (currently).

Just shows to go ya, if you go feet first into something, your feet might get wet.

T


Not at all.That`s why it`ll take close to a year just to shut down the Cuban jail site.

Adjudicating them may take longer,much longer but Habeas Corpus applies to everyone in our custody,even non-citizens,even terror suspects,in spite of what our neo-constitutionalists claim.

But apply the law to them(the few actual bad guys we got there) we will.

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/22/2009 11:49:53 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
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From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

Hippiekinkstr, I must have missed your eleoquent reply to Philospohy.  I saw a rambling story about a single New Left Confrence, where the Scary Black Radicals glared and the whites sheepishly voted to declare Isreal a racist evil state.  Which infers that all leftists obey the dictates of one confrence, in a lockstep fashion,( except for the couragous Zionists Left?).  It seemed like such a silly reply no one bothered to rebut it. 
If you had bothered to read it carefully, you would see that the quote was from a book by one of the founder of SDS. I said that I believe that that conference was the genesis of anti-Israel rhetoric by the "left".  

quote:

But I don't understand why when Physicians for Human Rights issues a report about America, it is true, but thier reports on Isreal are garbage, in your opinion.
I don't recall ever offering an opinion on Physicians for Human Rights vis-a-vis Israel. Do me a favor and find it for me, there's a good chap. 

quote:

I get that you hate Hamas, I want Hamas removed from power and prosecuted.  But the Isreali Issue, goes back before 6 years, and is larger than Hamas.
  Wow, I didn't know that. /sarcasm 

quote:

But you don't have to answer, if you don't want to.
So happy to have your permission, massa. /sarcasm







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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/22/2009 2:19:52 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


A simple web search prior to posting would save you loads of embarrassment, Ken


quote:

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed naming names


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Captured al Qaeda leader Khalid Shaikh Mohammed is naming operatives of the terrorist organization and offering what is believed to be useful information to U.S. interrogators, sources confirmed to CNN Thursday.


quote:

ABC News' Luis Martinez reports: CIA Director Michael Hayden offered a spirited defense of the agency's controversial detention and interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, which Attorney General nominee Eric Holder characterized today as "torture." Hayden said the techniques provided extremely useful information about al Qaeda and have led to repeated successes against the terror network. "You can't say it didn't work. It worked," Hayden said in a wide-ranging farewell interview with reporters at the CIA's headquarters in Langley, Va.


And a little bit of research by you would have saved you this embarrassment.

The dateline on the first article is April 3, 2003. Later on people discovered that KSM had lied. All recent information is that KSM never provided any actionable intelligence.

The second is a claim that the person quoted has himself contradicted by stating that KSM provided no actionable intelligence.

(in reply to Sanity)
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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/23/2009 11:09:41 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

CAIRO, Egypt - A Saudi man released from Guantanamo Bay after spending nearly six years inside the U.S. prison camp is now the No. 2 of Yemen's al-Qaida branch, according to a purported Internet statement from the terror network.


The announcement, made this week on a Web site commonly used by militants, came as President Barack Obama ordered the detention facility closed within a year. Many of the remaining detainees are from Yemen, which has long posed a vexing terrorism problem for the United States.

In response to the report, a key Democratic lawmaker said Obama needs to "proceed extremely carefully" in closing Guantanamo, but that there was no justification for "disappearing people" in a place outside the reach of U.S. law.


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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/23/2009 11:21:37 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Another # 2 ?!?

This is getting ridiculous.

So why did bush release, ~number two~?

<snort>



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"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/23/2009 12:05:56 PM   
Puppy4goodHome


Posts: 1448
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Beachwood Ohio and a few others
Status: offline 		they dont  know what they ae doing if they close gitmo  keep it open

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/23/2009 12:14:53 PM   
Cagey18


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puppy4goodHome

they dont  know what they ae doing if they close gitmo  keep it open


Gosh, now I'm convinced.  Yes, keep it open.

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/23/2009 3:38:05 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		My boss was quite upset by this last night.  He, like so many others, has been spoonfed the lie that closing GITMO is stopping all antiterrorist activities.  Then he started making comments about the "no torture" statement that Obama made.  He stated that "if it saved 1000 lives it was worth torturing one person."  Here's the kicker.  My boss is a preacher.   Isn't it supposed to be his job to spread love not torture?
I believe the word I am looking for to describe this is "hipocrisy."

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/23/2009 3:41:48 PM   
KaineD


Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline 		It certainly is the height of hypocrisy.

I mean, how can a nation claim to be the pinnacle of freedom and justice and an example for all other nations when that nation condones torture?  The same people that think Gitmo should stay open and that torture is a-ok would be the same people that a couple of years ago said "Saddam Hussein tortures his own people, so we should oust him".  Lunacy.  Ya gotta be consistent.

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/23/2009 3:43:15 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		Don't get me wrong.  I'm not totally against torture.  It should just remain a personal thing.  Keep the feds out of it.

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/23/2009 3:50:19 PM   
KaineD


Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline 		A personal thing in what way?

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/23/2009 3:52:25 PM   
PerroDelSuerte


Posts: 2
Joined: 1/23/2009
Status: offline 		Its almost like you think Hamas doesn't torture people kaineD....Or that they siezed power through violence and killing Palestinians with no trials.

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/23/2009 3:57:20 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PerroDelSuerte

Its almost like you think Hamas doesn't torture people kaineD....Or that they siezed power through violence and killing Palestinians with no trials.


...it's about doing the right thing, but two wrongs don't make a right.

Most people characterise the war on terror as a cultural war. We can't win a cultural war by ceding the moral high ground. We can still wield a big stick, but we don't get into the mud to use it.....

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/23/2009 3:57:47 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		Am I on a kink board or did I go to the wrong place?

Sorry.  Had to double check.  There are various reasons for torture.  Some people get off on being tortured. 




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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/23/2009 7:10:15 PM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I am relieved that the process for closing this facility and sending the prisoners to appropriate places has begun.  As to where they will go, the initial plan is quoted in the OP-

"The draft requires a review of each Guantanamo case to decide whether the detainees should be returned to their home countries, released, transferred elsewhere or sent to another U.S. prison."


And the first time one of those killers comes back to bomb an American city or do some other damage the democrat party could kiss their majority in Congress and their ownership of the White House goodby for generations. 

The campaign is over...the votes are counted and the slogans don't matter anymore.  Bush tried to send these people back home and no one wanted them.  The guy we sent back to Saudi under pressure from the liberal nutjobs was put in rehab and was released.  He said he went to Iran to "buy rugs"!   He is now #2 in Al Quida.

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/23/2009 7:13:14 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I am relieved that the process for closing this facility and sending the prisoners to appropriate places has begun.  As to where they will go, the initial plan is quoted in the OP-

"The draft requires a review of each Guantanamo case to decide whether the detainees should be returned to their home countries, released, transferred elsewhere or sent to another U.S. prison."


And the first time one of those killers comes back to bomb an American city or do some other damage the democrat party could kiss their majority in Congress and their ownership of the White House goodby for generations. 

The campaign is over...the votes are counted and the slogans don't matter anymore.  Bush tried to send these people back home and no one wanted them.  The guy we sent back to Saudi under pressure from the liberal nutjobs was put in rehab and was released.  He said he went to Iran to "buy rugs"!   He is now #2 in Al Quida.


Then why did bush let this guy out?

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/23/2009 7:15:22 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

I believe the word I am looking for to describe this is "hipocrisy."


No.  The word you are looking for is hypocrisy.  Hipocrisy is a government ruled by hippos.








Sorry, I couldn’t resist.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/23/2009 9:38:31 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I am relieved that the process for closing this facility and sending the prisoners to appropriate places has begun.  As to where they will go, the initial plan is quoted in the OP-

"The draft requires a review of each Guantanamo case to decide whether the detainees should be returned to their home countries, released, transferred elsewhere or sent to another U.S. prison."


And the first time one of those killers comes back to bomb an American city or do some other damage the democrat party could kiss their majority in Congress and their ownership of the White House goodby for generations. 

The campaign is over...the votes are counted and the slogans don't matter anymore.  Bush tried to send these people back home and no one wanted them.  The guy we sent back to Saudi under pressure from the liberal nutjobs was put in rehab and was released.  He said he went to Iran to "buy rugs"!   He is now #2 in Al Quida.


1) Al Qaeda might be lying. Gitmo is a useful recruiting tool and they don't want it closed.
2) The man in question became radicalized after a multi year detention. Seems likely to me.
3) The Bush administration couldn't figure out after 5 or 6 years of detention that this was a dangerous guy and released him anyway. I thought torture was supposed to provide at least enough intelligence that we could tell who the real bad guys were?

In each of those scenarios it seems clear that closing Gitmo is still the right thing to do.

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RE: bye bye Gitmo? - 1/24/2009 6:16:15 AM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen




1) Al Qaeda might be lying. Gitmo is a useful recruiting tool and they don't want it closed.
2) The man in question became radicalized after a multi year detention. Seems likely to me.
3) The Bush administration couldn't figure out after 5 or 6 years of detention that this was a dangerous guy and released him anyway. I thought torture was supposed to provide at least enough intelligence that we could tell who the real bad guys were?

In each of those scenarios it seems clear that closing Gitmo is still the right thing to do.


edited to end quote
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.  Al Qaeda lying...not a hard one to believe.  However, Gitmo is not the "recruiting tool". The hatred these folk have for America, our way of life, our support of a free Israel and, most importantly, their radical muslim theology that indoctrinates school age youngsters has a lot more to do with the rise of terrorist muslim groups like Al Qaeda than the "Four Seasons Hotel" in Cuba known as Gitmo. There was no Gitmo prior to 9/11 and radical muslims were growing in strength for decades aided by Iran, Syria and in many cases it seems, by Saudi Arabia and others.

2.  As far as the man becoming "radicalized" during his six years at Gitmo, it's like saying that John Gotti was made into a criminal because he spent a few years in Allenwood prison.  Gimme a break!  The man was a trained operative who was assigned to assassinate someone that he than farmed out to two others.  He facilitated the movement of terrorists between Iran and Afganistan and was trained in Pakistan.  And I don't recall any evidence of al Shihri being tortured, by the way.
http://projects.nytimes.com/guantanamo/detainees/372-said-ali-al-shihri

3. Said Ali al Shihri was sent to Saudi Arabia under pressure from people the leftist media, a pressure that continues until today and was a cornerstone of the Obama campaign, to close Gitmo and send the prisoners home.  Obama now is facing the reality that faced George Bush, who also wanted to close Gitmo if he could.  No more slogans "Close Gitmo NOW" , put the inmates on trial!  No Obama has to face reality....What do you do with the inmates....release them?  send them to Iowa or Kansas?  build another Gitmo? Can't send them back to their countries because no one wants them....   
We spend more time worried about the comfort and rights of fucking terrorists than we do about solving our own very real problems.  Liberals always feel they are better than everyone else...they take the high road to morality as if other people don't have a sense of morality.  What liberals often lack in their highly intellectualized discourse is "common sense".  This is a cruel, harsh world out there with people who would slice of our heads if given the chance.  There are no people on earth with a higher sense of morality and goodness than the wonderful peace loving people of Tibet.  And they were crushed, their temples destroyed and their God could not stop the Chinese hoards.  I don't believe in "turning the other cheek".  If you bomb my country I will kill you if given the chance. Question them hard if they are captured and than send them to heaven and their 20 or 30 virgins.
We could probably have built quite a few schools for our children with the millions of dollars it costs to house these people. 

< Message edited by corysub -- 1/24/2009 6:18:26 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
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