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Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 6:03:05 PM   
lronitulstahp


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Army suicides at record high, passing civilians- 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090130/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/army_suicides
 
quote:

WASHINGTON – Stressed by war and long overseas tours, U.S. soldiers killed themselves last year at the highest rate on record, the toll rising for a fourth straight year and even surpassing the suicide rate among comparable civilians.

It makes me wonder how much help and assistance is being offered to our troops upon their return to the U.S.  i have a friend whose husband feels he isn't ready to do anything other than being a soldier.  What sort of re-immersion programs are they offered? 
 
Does the view of the war itself (similiar to the "welcome" sometimes extended to returning Vietnam vets) play a large part in this disturbing trend?  Or is the seeming lack of support from the government and military, the real problem?
 

< Message edited by lronitulstahp -- 1/29/2009 6:08:39 PM >

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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 6:54:50 PM   
aravain


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Status: offline 		DO they still have re-immersion programs?

I don't think so... at least, my dad never got one (honorably discharged during peace time due to disability).

That's *part* of the problem with the U.S. military... the different trainings and things reprogram the soldiers so that they're... well, soldiers, not necessarily people. Many people are able to readjust themselves back to civilian life, I'm sure... but there shouldn't be *any* that can't, in my opinion.

EDIT: That was a silly mispelling. 'bad' changed to 'back'


< Message edited by aravain -- 1/29/2009 7:28:23 PM >

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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 7:05:51 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aravain

not necessarily people.


      Did you actually type that?  I mean, you obviously did, it's right here on my screen, but...  Did you actually type that?

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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 7:10:05 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		I thought the point of army training was to strips individuals of their individuality in order to make them into soldiers before anything else. Aravain's "not necessarily people", although horrible, makes sense in this context. I'm sure he wasn't making a judgement of value on the humanity of ex-soldiers, but rather was referring to how dehumanised they can be after they having been used by the army. 

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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 7:12:56 PM   
GreedyTop


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I thought the point of army training was to strips individuals of their individuality in order to make them into soldiers before anything else. Aravain's "not necessarily people", although horrible, makes sense in this context. I'm sure he wasn't making a judgement of value on the humanity of ex-soldiers, but rather was referring to how dehumanised they can be after they having been used by the army. 


that's how I read it....

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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 7:15:31 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		     Kitten, I am just trying to imagine your reaction if he was talking about members of a minority group conditioned by growing up in the ghetto. 

   Not necessarily people....

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 1/29/2009 7:16:16 PM >

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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 7:24:08 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Yeah well, you just feel personally offended by aravain's unfortunate choice of words. It happens to all of us, I can assure you . Although I cannot speak for him, I'm nearly 100% convinced there was no intention to imply that soldiers "aren't people".


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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 7:25:55 PM   
aravain


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Status: offline 		kittinSol caught my meaning.

I equate individuality with personage. It's less a judgment on the people, more a judgment on the institution. I disapprove of *any* institution which actively tries to strip someone's personage away, even as I support the people who (in the case of the military) choose to undergo it.

And no, I don't view it as necessary, just the way it's done.

And while taking my post out of context is cute I never mentioned minority groups being 'conditioned by growing up in the ghetto' at all. I would extend the same opinion to *gangs* but there is a rather distinctive difference between a 'ghetto' (as you call it) and a gang.

When someone's individuality is actively discouraged in favor of identifying as part of a group *instead* (as is the case in both the U.S. military AND any gang I've ever read up on), they are stripping their personage away, making them part of 'The Army' or 'The Navy' or 'The Bloods' etc. etc. ad nauseum.

And, like I said, I'm sure most reacquaint themselves to society (and, hence, person-hood) quite well... but some (a good number) obviously don't.

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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 7:34:05 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		      What you have read is very incomplete picture.  Your words are those of an ignorant bigot.


    No.  You didn't mention minorities.  I brought that up as a comparison to Kitten of her situational ethics.

   Done.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 1/29/2009 7:39:04 PM >

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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 7:44:46 PM   
piratecommander


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I thought the point of army training was to strips individuals of their individuality in order to make them into soldiers before anything else. Aravain's "not necessarily people", although horrible, makes sense in this context. I'm sure he wasn't making a judgement of value on the humanity of ex-soldiers, but rather was referring to how dehumanised they can be after they having been used by the army. 


Thats how I read it too and I agree

And USED is exactly what the majority of military personnel ordered into combat are.

Pirate

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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 7:52:49 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: piratecommander


And USED is exactly what the majority of military personnel ordered into combat are.





      Yup.  Who made a choice, volunteered, and raised the hand to swear an oath.  That stuff is all right there in the contract.

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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 8:04:17 PM   
mc1234


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Status: offline 		http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2008/baker_suicide.html

Unfortunately, suicide rates seem to be on the rise - at least according to the above study by Johns Hopkins, so it may be a matter of the hardening economy and stress overall causing the increase in suicide rates - in addition to the stress of re-entering society.  I have no idea about the training offered a soldier going off duty for them to re-enter the non-military work force (but agree this should be offered).  This is a matter that a lot of people have to deal with as the jobs they held go 'poof' overnight, leaving only working at McDonald's an option if the industry in which they were employed disappears also. 

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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 8:04:19 PM   
aravain


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Status: offline 		I didn't base it solely on this article, but as you wish. I'm ignorant (something that my readings about brainwashing and classes on psychology that include and (in one case) focused on the issue of brainwashing in depth apparently haven't fixed , not to forget mentioning *knowing* ex-military people both older and more modern, as well as people who didn't quite cut it *because* they didn't lose their individuality and talking to them about it), and a bigot (though I don't see how being against the way an institution works is anywhere near the same as treating a group of people with intolerance or hate, which I believe is the context you're using the term in (especially when I stated that I support those people who undergo it. In fact, I think they're heroes because I wouldn't have the strength of will that they obviously do)... or did you mean that I'm "obstinately or intolerantly devoted" to my opinion on this matter, something that you obviously can't know from the fact that I've posted about it... um, twice, and that I haven't debated with anyone here about it, and that you weren't there when I formulated said opinion).

Definition gotten here

I still don't see what minorities have anything to do with this... or how her ethics are situational. She would have to speak to it for me to be certain, but I'd guess that she doesn't like the idea of someone's individuality being stripped away in any case at all (regardless on if she agrees with me on its requirements for person-hood, which I'd assume she doesn't).

Though I'd like to point out that simply being a minority or living in a ghetto doesn't strip anyone of individuality, or person-hood, which is why I *still* (even with your attempt to clarify) don't understand why you brought it up in the first place.

EDIT: For clarity in the very beginning


< Message edited by aravain -- 1/29/2009 8:11:31 PM >

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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 8:06:14 PM   
piratecommander


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: piratecommander


And USED is exactly what the majority of military personnel ordered into combat are.





      Yup.  Who made a choice, volunteered, and raised the hand to swear an oath.  That stuff is all right there in the contract.


Quite so , but that is as you say , in the contract .

I'm sure there's nothing more courageous than signing it,but I think this thread is about more than that.
You sign the contract and it becomes your duty to possibly die.
But suicide is clearly brought on by the mental impact of having not died at times.
I wonder how many soldiers from wherever who have to live with suicidal urges and mental ilness for the rest of their lives as a result of their experiences during their service who would not agree that there is inadequate support in place to help them?

Pirate

< Message edited by piratecommander -- 1/29/2009 8:08:16 PM >

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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 8:10:22 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aravain

Though I'd like to point out that simply being a minority or living in a ghetto doesn't strip anyone of individuality, or person-hood, which is why I *still* (even with your attempt to clarify) don't understand why you brought it up in the first place.



Heretic is angry because he feels he owns the universal truth when it comes to things military - apparently, soldiers should put up and shut up, since they signed on the dotted line.


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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 8:14:14 PM   
aravain


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Status: offline 		Good to know  thanks.

Guess I should shut up since I'm not a soldier. Too bad we don't have freedom of thought in the U.S. ... Oh wait... well, it's too bad that we have no impact on our government and how it runs it's institutions... OH, wait, we do? Wow!

Maybe *that* is why I'm vocal about this

Thanks KittinSol XD

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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 8:15:47 PM   
Lynnxz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

    What you have read is very incomplete picture.  Your words are those of an ignorant bigot.


  No.  You didn't mention minorities.  I brought that up as a comparison to Kitten of her situational ethics.

Done.


O.o

Why so touchy?  I just skimmed over his reply...and got the meaning he was portraying, and even went back to the original post after your reply to see if I had missed something. Nothing. The only way it is inflammatory is if you just snip out that little bit by itself.

I've known a couple guys to come out of the military, and be lost. One, a medic, was distraught that he spent so much time in... and when he was discharged for injuries- the ONLY civi job he was qualified for was a EMT-B... the guy that drives the freaking ambulance. This guy can give IV's in the dark in the back of a bouncing vehicle, was the only one in the class room to pick up on chest tubes on the first try... and all he was good for in the civi world was driving the fricking ambulance. No LPN, no RN... not even a Paramedic license.

He had spent so much time and effort, only to be screwed when he was discarded by the Army due to injuries recieved in the line of duty.

Another good friend of mine, a guy I dated while in AIT, is now a raging alcoholic. His entire family in in the military in some form, and this past year his brother died in Iraq. Now, this guy has never been deployed... he's tried EVERYTHING to get deployed, changing his MOS twice, and volunteering every time something comes up. In a way, he feels guilty that his brother died, and he's never even set foot in the Middle East. Rough.


< Message edited by Lynnxz -- 1/29/2009 8:19:01 PM >

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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 8:25:28 PM   
piratecommander


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aravain


Guess I should shut up since I'm not a soldier.



Wrong there aravain , in this debate we're discussing volunteers , not conscripts , who sign up to soldier for their country I'm guessing the country they soldier for includes you . So your input is very valid , because it's your country too and the way your country treats it's own citizens is something you have just as much right to comment on as anyone else.

Pirate

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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 8:58:05 PM   
aravain


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Status: offline 		Which was my (admittedly passive aggressive) point with the sarcasm Thanks for the support on that, though.

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RE: Army Suicides at Record High - 1/29/2009 9:19:22 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mc1234
I have no idea about the training offered a soldier going off duty for them to re-enter the non-military work force (but agree this should be offered). 



       It's called the GI Bill. 

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