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RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 8:57:54 AM   
subtee


Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline 		Generally speaking the lenders and banks don't want the property back, and it doesn't behoove any of us for them to hold it instead of homeowners making payments, even reduced payments. There ought to be a conversation (such as this one), as to how these complementary outcomes could be achieved.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I've never been concerned with 'blame', so the first part of your post isn't important.
Ludicrous.

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 9:11:30 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

The part of your post that I highlighted is truly laughable, merc.
Glad, and at the same time sorry, that reality generates such a response. 
quote:

 C'mon, we all didn't just fall off the back of a cabage truck ! Those poor, poor executives, my heart bleeds for them. I don't believe that their "contracts call for bonuses".
You manner of transportation and your disbelieve notwithstanding, I didn't realize that your belief is required as dogma. What else don't you believe in that we can cross off from reality? Every contract, public or private sector, that I've had for 30 years had a contractual bonus obligation. If I'd known that your belief is required before you agree; I would have requested documentation of your dogma to determine how many other of your positions were fantasy based and thus impossible to debate on a rational level.  
quote:

Bonuses for these top level executives are dispensed by the Boards of Directors at annual meetings of these corporations, in otherwords, by themselves
Those, for future reference, are called discretionary bonuses; extra and independent from contractually operational bonus. The lower on the ladder the more specific they are; 'x' volume, 'x' collection, 'x' profit. At the top, it's ROE, ROI, or stock value. After that, sure - we all sit around with our cigars and single malt and determine how to distribute more to each other; if the results are better than expected. Why not? The recourse, especially recently, is to provide corporate tax money bailing out our competitors who didn't manage there businesses as well. Better to head to a weekend at the Atlantis, get a few dozen suites, and spend it stimulating the economy as we see fit.

In fact, I've got a pretty good club going of people like myself who think it's better to spend money on themselves versus investing in their businesses. We all agree that we should spend it ourselves before the government gets it and wastes it.

BTW - how many 'drops' going into the bucket are necessary to make the bucket full? It's a good attitude to have under current conditions. You're okay with drip waste, but don't want a flow? It that an accurate reflection of your position? Like the contract issue - please define "drip"; $100 Million, $100 Billion, Trillion? What's the "drip" you expect from years of litigation? Is your experience on those lines available? I know from my experience any "routine" foreclosure adds $25k in costs to the exposure. Let's be conservative and say each occurrence will add $10k to that figure, with the meter running already for the bailed out, government invested, financial institutions. Put a number of cases and apply it - is that your "tiny drop". Here's a prediction - collectively its 10x more than any contractual executive bonus payout. Worse - it results in no change in the result, except to one group of people - taxpayers.

Since we're in need of defining "tiny drops"; in the current Congress passed package, the 'bee insurance' provision at $150 Million - drip or flow?

(in reply to cjan)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 9:17:43 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Generally speaking the lenders and banks don't want the property back, and it doesn't behoove any of us for them to hold it instead of homeowners making payments, even reduced payments. There ought to be a conversation (such as this one), as to how these complementary outcomes could be achieved.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I've never been concerned with 'blame', so the first part of your post isn't important.
Ludicrous.
More  ludicrous not quoting the rest of the post on point.
quote:

My cost of funds is 0.25% it costs me 200 basis points to turn on the lights - I want payments equal to 2.25% of your mortgage balance per month, until the property is sold or your situation changes. Put it up for sale at market price, at market rates. You're perspective is personal. People have money people are buying houses. You'll have a outstanding balance because you bought on the wrong side of the investment curve. Sorry to hear that - hoped you enjoyed living in the home for as long as you did. I guess its time to move on. I'm willing to work with you. It's a shame your elected officials allowed that to happen. You should vote them out of office. Trashing your credit will be up to you. I'll give you the same deal on any resulting balance after its sold. Pay it, and I'll keep your loan reported as current. Don't and it will be reported under that condition.  Good luck to you


Then again; solutions aren't really the goal are they? The goal, obviously, is blaming, excusing, enabling, and rationalizing.

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 9:30:29 AM   
subtee


Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline 		Whose goal?

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 9:37:23 AM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		merc, your assertion that the executives in question that gave themselves 20 billion in bonuses had to do so due to their contracts is ludicrous and ingenuous. Perhaps you should inform President Obama and Treasury Secretary Geithner of this fact so that they could retract their recent public statement that said bonuses are "shameful".

The rest of the smoke you are blowing about "dips" and "drops" is also nonsense. As I pointed out, any litigation regarding foreclosures is simply applying Constitutionaly guaranteed  due process before depriving a citizen of his/her property. I'm sure you would be squeeling like a pig if the government or a financial institution tried to deprive you of your property without benefit of due process.


_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 9:51:16 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Outrageous! The little guy tries to get away with it?! He doesn't even have the moral superiority of wealth! If you're poor, you go down: it's the good, morally upright, fair and just way. If you're rich, millions of little guys rescue you: it's good, and fair, and just too.

And all is for the best in the best of all capitalistic worlds. 

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 10:06:29 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

rc, your assertion that the executives in question that gave themselves 20 billion in bonuses had to do so due to their contracts is ludicrous and ingenuous. Perhaps you should inform President Obama and Treasury Secretary Geithner of this fact so that they could retract their recent public statement that said bonuses are "shameful".
Me - If anything I'd chastise them for not knowing about them in the first place, or not putting in any language that would prohibited them. Apparently, since they were surprised, they could have used some "inform"ing. I'd say that doesn't speak well of their getting and understanding of the details before putting tax money into programs. Their 'surprise' is disconcerting. Their "shameful" opinion after the fact  - well, that's just represents 'status quo' with the past regime. Then is was represented by many, as indicating the "ignorance" of the administration. What do you call it now?

quote:

The rest of the smoke you are blowing about "dips" and "drops" is also nonsense. As I pointed out, any litigation regarding foreclosures is simply applying Constitutionaly guaranteed  due process before depriving a citizen of his/her property.
Okay, I guess I need to rephrase the question since now you've added smoke. How much smoke, dips, and drops are necessary before you decide they are meaningful.  

quote:

I'm sure you would be squeeling like a pig if the government or a financial institution tried to deprive you of your property without benefit of due process.
Irrelevant, but any "due process" I incurred wouldn't involve public funds, as the Congresswoman's proposal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Outrageous! The little guy tries to get away with it?!
Who are your "little guys"? These are homeowners, getting money to keep them in homes that they shouldn't be in, which kept prices inflated for those who didn't overstretch their resources and rented during that same period.

You are for the homeowners. 'Rich' by the standards of many who rent, using renters tax money to keep them in the 'keeping up with the Jone's' home. Apparently trying to save these renting tax payers who fund these programs is supporting the 'rich'. Wow. 

Over the years, the homeowners have gotten to write off 100% of their interest, the renters get, in most cases, zero tax benefit. They've had to save, and scrimp by to get to the point of home ownership. Now, prices are down, and instead of using tax money for these renters to move up into home ownership, you'd prefer to keep the 'rich' people in their homes, and use the tax money to keep them there.

Which side are you on again?

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 10:13:35 AM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		FR

...i'm confused. All this 'produce the note' business really means is, if you say i owe you money produce the marker.
Now you may know that you do owe money, but in a world where your marker has been bought and sold multiple times, what the hells wrong with making sure that the person trying to take your house is the actual person holding your marker?

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 10:30:51 AM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		Yes, it's just that simple, philo. No one is asking for tax dollars or anything other than routine due process.
quote:


quote:

I'm sure you would be squeeling like a pig if the government or a financial institution tried to deprive you of your property without benefit of due process.
Irrelevant, but any "due process" I incurred wouldn't involve public funds, as the Congresswoman's proposal.


It's not "irrelevant" at all, merc. It's very relevant. Or is due process only for you ? You keep referring to tax dollars/public funds being involved. That's not the case. It's an expectation of due process. Do you expect people to vacate their homes and give up their property without due process and all relevant legal documents being submitted ? Would you submit to same?

< Message edited by cjan -- 2/2/2009 10:39:39 AM >

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 10:34:44 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

Yes, it's just that simple, philo. No one is asking for tax dollars or anything other than routine due process. 


...well, thats what i thought. In which case i am seriously confused as to why Merc appears to object........

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RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 10:36:02 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		It's a moralistic desire to ensure that failure does not get rewarded. 

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RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 10:37:39 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's a moralistic desire to ensure that failure does not get rewarded. 


...would that include failure to prove that someone actually owes you money?

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 10:40:40 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Ha! Precisely. The moral relativism borders on painful, doesn't it? 

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 10:59:55 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Nowhere do I represent any abdication of 'due process'. However I do represent it's a waste of resources on both sides of the equation, and feel it is fiducially irresponsible for any elected official who just passed the legislation to champion an effort to encumber it's goal of recouping that investment.

I know - it's a complicated mental construct, and I can see how presenting an alleged 'moral' argument is the only ground you have to stand on. Go ahead and take that 'victory' if you need to; as long as you apply it to every other instance of hypocrisy in your position.

quote:

You keep referring to tax dollars/public funds being involved. That's not the case.
Once again - a believe represented as fact? The bail out tax money is only going to bonus and outsourcing employees, and won't be used to defend this litigation? Is that language buried in there someplace that I haven't read? 

Anyone else note the consistency of the replies? ALL rhetoric, no substance, no addressing the purported purpose of the bail out and how this procedure will not do anything other than add expense and delay the inevitable.

No response to the serving the 'rich' homeowners versus the renters who could be buyers using the same resources.

No response to the ignorance of the administration regarding the stimulus paying for bonuses.

No response to how much allocation of resources for a unchanging result "due process" delay tactic.

The lawyers must be very pleased in creating this litigious population. Which brings up another factor, instead of using any income and asset to move forward, the OP wants them to give it to a lawyer to investigate the possibility that the note can't be found. That makes sense? If these people have the $5k to retain a lawyer to litigate, they'd be better served using it as a deposit on the many properties that are up for lease.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Precisely. The moral relativism borders on painful, doesn't it? 
Don't be "pained" kitten. So you are for wanting the perspectively 'rich' homeowners get money from the poor renters. It's not the end of the world to be conned into championing a position in direct conflict with your general philosophy.

However, it should be equally applied, shouldn't it? Why are some homeowners 'better' than the others just because they paid? Let's give ALL homeowners 6 months of deferred mortgage payments pending 'prove the not' litigation. Let's give every homeowner the $5k it would take to do so.

All you renters out there ready to 'buck up' for us homeowners? It's the least sacrifice you can give to protect the status quo being championed by the Administration and Congress.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 2/2/2009 11:00:20 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 11:01:01 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Umm, phil, I think I heard of a scam like that going on years ago. Literally a phony S&L or mortgage/finance company would be set up and the homeowner would recieve a notice in the mail that their note had been bought, and they are now to make the payments payable to_____ and send the checks to ____.. It actually worked for a while, until the notices from the real lenders came in. By that time of course the scammers have flown the coop.

And Merc, thanks for answering my question, so it is like $2,250 a month on a hundred grand. Well fine bigboy, because I can play game as well. Since the foreclosure has not gone though I am holder in due course legally and therefore can do anything I damn well please with the property. You can have it back, because it's not going to have a single appliance in it, and that includes the furnace, hot water tank, any plumbing that is copper, and if there is any of that left if winter it will be frozen and burst. The new windows I installed last year will be at my sisters house, listed on eBay. You are going to have to rewire the place as well, because some idiot put COPPER wires in there. Carpet - gone. Sorry about the Chevy V8 I left on the marble floor, there aren't that many cracks in it after all. And I'm taking the garage door opener because after all, I'll be taking the garage door opener mechanism.

So rather than pay you over two grand a month, which I would have never agreed to in the first place, I will play hardball. Enjoy your nice, cold shack without windows, doors or a furnace. I am sure you can find a way to make money with it. Now both parties lose.

Also Merc, I did not mean to insult, what I said is that since you are smart you think everone else should be. Yes I agree, the understanding of amortization of loans and all that should be taught in highscool, or even before. But these stupid people out there get very innovative when things like this happen.  So instead of having people there who WANT to be there, and collecting some money, you get nothing, and to top it off, they know where you are and you don't know where they are.

Your rigidity about this matter IMO defies your intelligence. The 2.25% per month I consider usury, even though the government does not, and I would never have agreed to it. That comes to almost a 20% interest rate. (unless it is short term)

The Bible is wrong, Ramses got pissed off and told us Polaks to make bricks with no straw, so we did and now their shit is all built out of mud. Jaraslov is working on a new invention called a garden hose.

Right ? Not. But when it comes to hardball, people get smart real fast and will hurt you. Even on the other side of that desk, when the time comes to sell the property, don't ya think it would be nice if that property was still in good shape ?

Maybe it would be better if everyone playing this dirty game was not as "smart".

T

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 11:15:48 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

And Merc, thanks for answering my question, so it is like $2,250 a month on a hundred grand. Well fine bigboy, because I can play game as well. Since the foreclosure has not gone though I am holder in due course legally and therefore can do anything I damn well please with the property. You can have it back, because it's not going to have a single appliance in it, and that includes the furnace, hot water tank, any plumbing that is copper, and if there is any of that left if winter it will be frozen and burst. The new windows I installed last year will be at my sisters house, listed on eBay. You are going to have to rewire the place as well, because some idiot put COPPER wires in there. Carpet - gone. Sorry about the Chevy V8 I left on the marble floor, there aren't that many cracks in it after all. And I'm taking the garage door opener because after all, I'll be taking the garage door opener mechanism.

Your rigidity about this matter IMO defies your intelligence. The 2.25% per month I consider usury, even though the government does not, and I would never have agreed to it. That comes to almost a 20% interest rate. (unless it is short term)

Maybe it would be better if everyone playing this dirty game was not as "smart".

T

T,
My error in not being VERY clear.

Every time I cite rates its annual. I had to go back and check and I didn't note it there. The example I use, 200 basis points over COF, would result in a current cost of 2.25 ANNUALLY, not monthly! I'm calculator disabled as we speak, but I think that works out to less than $200.00 per $100k.

Now if the Fed Fund rate rises, that too would go up, but that was the 'plan' I had in mind.

I won't take credit for it though. It's available right now, through just about every viable bank in SoCal. These people don't want to become homeowners, for all the reasons you give. People are slime and will trash their own home in spite of themselves as 'revenge' for being approved for a loan they shouldn't have received.

Granted some banks may start the negotiations with a rate at 500 basis points over the Fed, (ANNUALIZED) but that is less than $500.00 per $100k. Of course when you apply it to CA housing you are dealing with another zero before the decimal, but in relative terms, it's still a viable work out.

Man, I wish there were a legal way to get 2.25% per month on a secured note - but I didn't get into the 'family' business. 

No games - only pragmatism. "Smart" or not on these boards is determined more upon agreement than reality, and being accused as 'smart' generates the same response as being called 'dumb', 'ignorant', 'stupid', or any of the other labels people use in lieu of a substantive reply.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. This 'big-boy' should have been clearer.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 2/2/2009 11:29:08 AM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 11:18:16 AM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline
quote:

merc smoke:

The bail out tax money is only going to bonus and outsourcing employees, and won't be used to defend this litigation? Is that language buried in there someplace that I haven't read? 


Get real, merc. I suppose you could say that any funds spent by the bailed out financial institutions is TARP money, even though that may not be the case. That's irrelevant here. That does not , however, in any way, bear on the right of the property owner to demand due process. If an entity choses to foreclose on a note, it's only reasonable that it should be made to produce the note.

< Message edited by cjan -- 2/2/2009 11:19:20 AM >

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 11:27:46 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan
quote:

merc smoke:
The bail out tax money is only going to bonus and outsourcing employees, and won't be used to defend this litigation? Is that language buried in there someplace that I haven't read? 


Get real, merc. I suppose you could say that any funds spent by the bailed out financial institutions is TARP money, even though that may not be the case. That's irrelevant here. That does not , however, in any way, bear on the right of the property owner to demand due process. If an entity choses to foreclose on a note, it's only reasonable that it should be made to produce the note.


Your 'smoke' is what? That it's a good use of resource to do so right? You haven't make a counter point on any substantive argument, so it must be the case.

Okay - you'd prefer putting tax payer money into lawyers hands through litigation. I don't, not even $1.00, not when it won't change the outcome. I can live that, preferring to use the limited resources available on something productive.

I'll never understand how pointing to wasted use of tax funds is ever irrelevant, but again - that's just me. I don't expect you to have to take that on as dogma.

So far, you've come off your position regarding bonuses, didn't want to get into use of taxpayer money, had no reply regarding where the existing homeowner would come up with the $5k to pay for an attorney to represent them (class action maybe?), didn't address the 'unfairness' of renters paying for the bail out of homeowners, and didn't even respond to the administration not appreciating the use of the bail out funds; maybe soon you'll be able to work through the practical consequences of the 'produce the note' idea too. I'm willing to work with you.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 2/2/2009 11:51:02 AM >

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RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 1:36:23 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

FR

...i'm confused. All this 'produce the note' business really means is, if you say i owe you money produce the marker.
Now you may know that you do owe money, but in a world where your marker has been bought and sold multiple times, what the hells wrong with making sure that the person trying to take your house is the actual person holding your marker?
That's my take on it too Phil,though it would seem we have all been hijacked into the usual "rewarding failure" zone.How availing oneself of perfectly legal steps somehow becomes an attempt to not live up to ones obligations is beyond me.

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Produce the note ! - 2/2/2009 2:55:34 PM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		merc, I'm done running around in circles with you. Actually, it's you who are not addressing the topic in the OP and instead obfuscating the issue at hand with irrelevant, tangential issues, as per your usual tactic.

As others have seen and noted, it's really a very simple matter of a property owner availing him/herself of due process. Either you support legal means to avail yourself of due process, or you don't. You, obviously, do, but only selectively. All the rest is hijack and obfuscation.

< Message edited by cjan -- 2/2/2009 2:57:21 PM >

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



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Profile   Post #: 80
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