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RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/8/2009 11:00:31 PM   
ArizonaSunSwitch


Posts: 205
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

Car crashes typically involve one of the following, being late, sleep deprivation, alcohol and or another vehicle. I don’t think space aliens have these problems.       I used the example of a primitive life form such as man ability to land on the moon without crashing for a reason.  Because then an alien species shouldn’t have a problem with landing on earth.



Ummm, i always thought crashing involved the *unwanted* mixing and averaging of kinetic energies between two (or more) objects.

As far as aliens never crashing, assuming you believe in them, why couldn't there be drug addled hippie martians or hill-billies in space pushing their rock-crawlers a little too hard ? God knows both of those types should of evolved out of our species already. My personal faith insists that god is a smart ass, why would he/she/it single our species out for his personal entertainment.


(in reply to MasterShake69)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/8/2009 11:02:32 PM   
ArizonaSunSwitch


Posts: 205
Joined: 11/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

Why should we pay for the health care of other nations?
I agree Bush failed in protecting our border.  That’s because Bush was always weak on that position.  We can imagine if the border was protected properly during the past 2 decades.  Then we wouldn’t have the problems we have today.  It’s been a shared failure of both Bush and Clinton.  Since Obama wants to renegotiate or end NAFTA maybe have an illegal healthcare tax on all goods entering the US from Mexico.  ;)



Yes, but at least Bush didn't appoint an open-borders advocate (and failed governor of Arizona) as Homeland Security Director.


(in reply to MasterShake69)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/9/2009 5:38:57 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
So where have you linked to multiple studies establishing significantly higher lifetime health care costs for smokers vs. nonsmokers.

Oh - that's right, you haven't produced even one from a source that's even remotely close to being as respected and as widely read as the New England Journal of Medicine, have you. Oh, wait - you couldn't possibly do that because, as you told us, you "guess" that studies in highly respected publications such as the New England Journal of Medicine are commissioned by the tobacco lobby, don't you. 




quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
And what point was that?

Oh, you mean the point about one single study, with a dubious line of reasoning being a fact?

Generally, facts are inferred from a multitude of studies and research that produce the same results.  You know, kind of like all the other research that has not agreed with this "fact".



< Message edited by Sanity -- 2/9/2009 5:55:30 AM >

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(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/9/2009 5:57:35 AM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

Both of these examples are abuses of either system, as both philosophies at their hearts have human good in mind. The truth is, we need a mindful centrist balance of both. Thinking so does not condone slavery of the people by the government.


Huh?  A voice of reason? How did you get in here?

(in reply to MarcEsadrian)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/9/2009 6:07:12 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
The problem with that though, is that everyone's a centrist, in their own head.


ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian
Both of these examples are abuses of either system, as both philosophies at their hearts have human good in mind. The truth is, we need a mindful centrist balance of both. Thinking so does not condone slavery of the people by the government.
[/quote]

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to MarcEsadrian)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/9/2009 6:14:35 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		You are the one who introduced the subject into this thread.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

your response to my questioning of area 51 having aliens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Ask MS 69. 



_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
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(in reply to MasterShake69)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/9/2009 6:15:38 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		He's got mad stealth skills.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

Both of these examples are abuses of either system, as both philosophies at their hearts have human good in mind. The truth is, we need a mindful centrist balance of both. Thinking so does not condone slavery of the people by the government.


Huh?  A voice of reason? How did you get in here?



_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to TNstepsout)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/9/2009 6:18:38 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Yes, you have beliefs based on your own limited perceptions and no evidence as to the technology or capabilities or motivations of potential contact with life forms from other parts of the universe visiting this planet.
 
No evidence.
 
Now back to the regularly scheduled thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

Belief #1
An Alien species that is able to develop interstellar transportation to star systems light years away from its home world would have certain abilities.
They clearly would have had their own variation of a space program during some point of there existence.  There space program would have experimented with different types of propulsion.  Such a program would consume time and scarce resources that would need to be protected.  Over time the Aliens technology would advance to a point where they would be able to safely voyage to their interstellar neighbors.  They would logically have done experiments and become proficient in landing and returning to their home world duirng all stages of there manned space program.   If not then why would they make the trip?

Belief #2
The only other conclusion is space aliens send manned ships out into space light years away without testing then and just hope for the best.  If they crash, then so what, the crew is expendable and they’ll just make another interstellar spaceship.  That they progressed in space travel by shear quantity of space ships.  The universe is littered with their crashed exploration ships.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

And you are basing your assumptions on the intelligence and capabilities of unknown species from other planets based on what evidence?


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69
Car crashes typically involve one of the following, being late, sleep deprivation, alcohol and or another vehicle. I don’t think space aliens have these problems.       I used the example of a primitive life form such as man ability to land on the moon without crashing for a reason.  Because then an alien species shouldn’t have a problem with landing on earth.




_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to MasterShake69)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/9/2009 10:20:26 AM   
MasterShake69


Posts: 752
Joined: 11/30/2005
Status: offline 		The first post to mention Aliens at area 51 was post #32.
Then in post #80, I make a response with a slight joke.  Also in my response I quoting the original post.
So i do not understand the confusion of the left about who started talking about Aliens.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

You are the one who introduced the subject into this thread.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

your response to my questioning of area 51 having aliens

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Ask MS 69. 



(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/9/2009 10:24:08 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		There is no confusion.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to MasterShake69)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/9/2009 10:35:04 AM   
MasterShake69


Posts: 752
Joined: 11/30/2005
Status: offline
All of space science is educated guesses based on the knowledge we have at hand.  As our knowledge base increase so does the accuracy of our projections.  There has to be some simple basic concepts we can agree on. A spaceship would logically need industrial capability for it to be created? Can we agree on this?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Yes, you have beliefs based on your own limited perceptions and no evidence as to the technology or capabilities or motivations of potential contact with life forms from other parts of the universe visiting this planet.
 
No evidence.
 
Now back to the regularly scheduled thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

Belief #1
An Alien species that is able to develop interstellar transportation to star systems light years away from its home world would have certain abilities.
They clearly would have had their own variation of a space program during some point of there existence.  There space program would have experimented with different types of propulsion.  Such a program would consume time and scarce resources that would need to be protected.  Over time the Aliens technology would advance to a point where they would be able to safely voyage to their interstellar neighbors.  They would logically have done experiments and become proficient in landing and returning to their home world duirng all stages of there manned space program.   If not then why would they make the trip?

Belief #2
The only other conclusion is space aliens send manned ships out into space light years away without testing then and just hope for the best.  If they crash, then so what, the crew is expendable and they’ll just make another interstellar spaceship.  That they progressed in space travel by shear quantity of space ships.  The universe is littered with their crashed exploration ships.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

And you are basing your assumptions on the intelligence and capabilities of unknown species from other planets based on what evidence?


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69
Car crashes typically involve one of the following, being late, sleep deprivation, alcohol and or another vehicle. I don’t think space aliens have these problems.       I used the example of a primitive life form such as man ability to land on the moon without crashing for a reason.  Because then an alien species shouldn’t have a problem with landing on earth.




(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/9/2009 10:42:22 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Who says that industrial built ships would be the only way of arriving here?
There are too many unknowns factors to come to any conclusion one way or the other.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to MasterShake69)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/9/2009 10:49:12 AM   
MarcEsadrian


Posts: 852
Joined: 8/24/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

Both of these examples are abuses of either system, as both philosophies at their hearts have human good in mind. The truth is, we need a mindful centrist balance of both. Thinking so does not condone slavery of the people by the government.


Huh?  A voice of reason? How did you get in here?



I was bored.

(in reply to TNstepsout)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/9/2009 11:49:23 AM   
MasterShake69


Posts: 752
Joined: 11/30/2005
Status: offline 		  one last question on this subject
Would you agree that an Alien species evolved over time?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Who says that industrial built ships would be the only way of arriving here?
There are too many unknowns factors to come to any conclusion one way or the other.

(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/9/2009 12:02:44 PM   
ModeratorEleven


Posts: 2007
Joined: 8/14/2005
Status: offline 		Folks, take the alien nonsense elsewhere.

XI


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This mod goes to eleven.

(in reply to MasterShake69)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/9/2009 2:53:24 PM   
MarsBonfire


Posts: 1034
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline 		I was just gonna say... we start talking about how Obama didn't give everyone a few extra days to look over a bill that he promised he'd sign MONTHS before he gets elected... and we end up talking about aliens and Area 51? 

Okay, if we EVER have a yearly awards show for posts on this forum, I nominate this one for "Greatest hijack of a serious political thread into silliness, '09"

(in reply to ModeratorEleven)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/9/2009 3:22:04 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


So where have you linked to multiple studies establishing significantly higher lifetime health care costs for smokers vs. nonsmokers.

Oh - that's right, you haven't produced even one from a source that's even remotely close to being as respected and as widely read as the New England Journal of Medicine, have you. Oh, wait - you couldn't possibly do that because, as you told us, you "guess" that studies in highly respected publications such as the New England Journal of Medicine are commissioned by the tobacco lobby, don't you.


This is the last post I will make on this, because you seem to be purposely ignoring what I stated.

The New England Journal of Medicine doesn't accept or reject the publication of studies based on who funded them.  Regardless of who funded it, the study was flawed because it used an invalid comparison, you know, like apples to oranges.

As far as where I linked to studies proving smokers have higher health costs, you need only scroll up in this thread to find a quote and link I posted to you.  A link, which I have pointed out to you several times before in this thread, that came from your own study.  Yet you keep asking me the same question I have answered for you numerous times.

In fact, if you read the study that you posted and are citing as the basis for your argument, which it is painfully obvious that you have not bothered to do, you will find the multiple links that you are questioning me about in the reference section.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 2/9/2009 3:29:10 PM >

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/9/2009 4:14:23 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Why are you arguing so intensely about the cost of smoking to society. If it were just the link that bothered you, you wouldn't argue about it for two days.

We wouldn't have to argue about what's at the core of this at all if we could simply agree that Socialism, socialist nanny states shouldn't exist, shouldn't own people at all, regardless of the costs of treating illnesses. Whether smokers cost more to treat in the long run, or whether non-smokers lingering on and having to be treated for other illnesses costs more... what is the point of the argument. The whole argument has to presume that the government owns of our bodies due to government cost.

In other words this entire highly entertaining two day discussion has been centered around the idea that once "society" begins to pay our medical bills "society" then has an obligation to society as a whole to presume that it owns our bodies because it pays the bills, and "society" then presumes the duty to dictate our behaviors - which is a huge indictment of socialized medicine, an indictment of socialized anything.

It's all a farce. All this argument proves is that Socialism blows chunks because once nanny government feels it has the duty to dictate whether or not we have a right to smoke it then must assume the duty to dictate our butter consumption, dictate what recreational activities may or may not be be too dangerous to pursue,  dictate whether or not our sexual choices are safe enough, and so on and so forth.

But thanks for playing anyway, it's been real fun, we'll see ya next time...  








< Message edited by Sanity -- 2/9/2009 4:55:56 PM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/11/2009 9:00:24 AM   
MarcEsadrian


Posts: 852
Joined: 8/24/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
In other words this entire highly entertaining two day discussion has been centered around the idea that once "society" begins to pay our medical bills "society" then has an obligation to society as a whole to presume that it owns our bodies because it pays the bills, and "society" then presumes the duty to dictate our behaviors - which is a huge indictment of socialized medicine, an indictment of socialized anything.


Good points about extreme socialism, and I could not agree more. It's really a matter of how much or how little of it we want or need in our lives. We've had socialism in large groups of humans for quite a long time now. In fact, that's what government and much of what glues society together is.

The days of the Homestead Act frontier are well over. Taxes, social laws, collective programs and institutions are the cost of living in a civilization. How we balance those establishments with our own individual liberties and pursuit of happiness is a delicate and ever-changing science and responsibility as our nation evolves.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Obama's first broken Promise - 2/11/2009 9:11:01 AM   
shannie


Posts: 200
Joined: 1/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
It's all a farce. All this argument proves is that Socialism blows chunks because once nanny government feels it has the duty to dictate whether or not we have a right to smoke it then must assume the duty to dictate our butter consumption, dictate what recreational activities may or may not be be too dangerous to pursue,  dictate whether or not our sexual choices are safe enough, and so on and so forth.


What really sucks though is when you have a police state anyway, with the government policing every facet of family and personal life (based on the lie that it's gonna lower insurance costs, or whatever) -- and  you don't even get free health care for it!

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 120
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