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RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/15/2009 4:37:09 PM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MichiganHeadmast

Hippie, I was gonna dispute your premise, but the ingenious addition of a "K" to America convinced me your logic must be impeccable.

Only thing I'll add is that maybe we should emulate Zimbabwe (sorry, no place to put a K in there) and everyone can be trillionaires.

It's the German spelling, a language which I use from time to time on here. I wouldn't expect you or thishereboi to know that, however, as it seems that, judging by your posts, neither of you have travelled very much.

Had I wished to use a disparaging spelling, it would have been Amerikkka, which at times seems apropos.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to MichiganHeadmast)

Post #: 21

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/15/2009 5:04:30 PM

corysub

Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

quote:

The Republicans have done everything in their power to create a society wherein the rich have all the tax laws and investment regulations written in their favor. The hell with everyone else. A little over the top. ... dontcha think? But I do understand your frustration.

Partisanship here is inappropriate. Yes it is! USA is plutocracy, there are no parties in reality. Look at the CEO pay multiple vs average worker pay: the huge increase falls into president Clinton years. I have always said Clinton is so far the best example of coropratism. The stimulus and TARP (arguably) is nothing else than protecting the rich at the expense of future generations.

In actuality, TARP, thankfully, protected all of us. In September and October of 2008 it looked as if the financial system of the United States would collapse at any moment. Even Pelosi and Reid understood that it was not a time for an agenda driven political stance. It was a time to save the country...by that I mean you and me...the rich...somehow they can take care of themselves. Does it really change your lifestyle if you are only worth $40 million instead of $100 million.? Maybe.

The investors in bank equities..down 85% from where they were a year or so ago got wiped out. These are not all Vikram Pandit's, John Mack, Jamie Dimon or Bernie Lewis...these are average folk who bought local banks like Wachovia, for example, and saw their nest egg destroyed. TARP did not save the rich..it saved the banking system. Lehman is gone, Washington Mutual, IndyMac, Countrywide, AIG...Bear, Stearns, and Merrill Lynch all were pretty much wipe outs for their investors and the employees of those companies that had their 401K in company stock or received their compensation in options.

It's very convenient to pick on the rich, and they sure as hell don't need me to defend them, but think about where the country is going now...the kind of leadership we are "not getting"...the lack of politicians understanding that they won the election and beating up on the economy does not translate into political gain but in economic disaster as the consumer (you and me) cuts back on all sorts of spending..not because they are out of work..but because they have been totally frightened out of their minds.

(in reply to awmslave)

Post #: 22

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/15/2009 5:05:26 PM

LookieNoNookie

Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Can anyone seriously argue that wealth is not being concentrated towards the top?

(Uhhhhmmm...wealth, by definition...is concentrated at the top!).

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 23

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/15/2009 6:51:11 PM

xBullx

Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
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You do realize that no self made man (gender neutral) has ever taken the role of the slave/ the victim or the equal.

If you don't want to be a statistic, do something about it. And simply siding with or against a political machine that truly could give two shits about you personally isn't the answer.

The Republicans are the Democrats and the Democrats are the Republicans.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 24

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/15/2009 7:40:36 PM

YoursMistress

Posts: 894
Joined: 12/17/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

It's the German spelling, a language which I use from time to time on here. I wouldn't expect you or thishereboi to know that, however, as it seems that, judging by your posts, neither of you have travelled very much.

Had I wished to use a disparaging spelling, it would have been Amerikkka, which at times seems apropos.

So to defend yourself, you disparage others by making an assumption and then add a backhanded insertion of what the others suggested was your original intent. I am not completely convinced, although I give you the benefit of the doubt.

yours

_____________________________

May your service of love a beautiful thing; want nothing else, fear nothing else and let love be free to become what love truly is. -- Hadewijch of Antwerp

As a rule, I don't like to make general statements.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 25

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/15/2009 8:29:46 PM

LookieNoNookie

Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Can anyone seriously argue that wealth is not being concentrated towards the top?
http://www.demos.org/inequality/numbers.cfm

Now, the rich don't earn their money in the sense that you or I go out and sell our time/labor in exchange for the weekly paycheck. No, it's the money making money. How does it do that, in such a lop-sided way? The Republicans have done everything in their power to create a society wherein the rich have all the tax laws and investment regulations written in their favor. The hell with everyone else.

That is a completely piss ant argument.

I'll agree Republicans have pissed away their options... but to suggest that those who have money haven't earned it is equally as fallacious.

Indeed, it's those with money (Republicans or otherwise), earned or given....who have worked their asses off.

And those who were fortunate enough to have been given money and still have some....(any)....10 years later are far better suited to run the show than those who had none and tried...and ended up at the end of the road with nothing.

Likewise...those who started with nothing and ended up 10 years later with a house on the hill...should be celebrated...because along the way, I can assure you, they provided jobs.

Very likely yours.

I'm always stunned at how those who think they know how to run an airline...who have never (and never will) run one....can spend unending effort telling those who do (and have) how.

Run one.

It ain't that easy.

Try to make a payroll....worry about the people...and their families...lose sleep when you can't.

Sell your house...the one you were planning on giving your children someday.

To make that very same payroll.

And then watch all those people you hired bitch about you when you have that beautiful house on the hill, or that car they all lust after...when there were 5 years that the government/bank/vendors/inlaws that you borrowed from/best friend that trusted you with everything he'd ever saved wanted the first 7 layers of your skin if you failed...when you spent 10 years wondering if you would ever have the same pension you provided for your employees who went home and slept at night while you stayed up until 4 a.m. (or the following Tuesday) to ensure others jobs?

120 months. 3,650 days. 520 very long weekends (which you and your friends spent going to barbecues). 27 meetings with the bank. 28 rejections from the same bank. 140 rejections from 9 other banks until you finally found one that believed in you....and your employees...and your dream....while every one of your employees enjoyed all those other barbecues.

Watch those very same employees offer up 10% of their salaries for the following 10 years (if) you've gone bankrupt, now living in a 1 bedroom apartment with your 3 kids and wife (who believed in you) because they felt a debt towards you...as you did towards them....

....Oh wait....that's not going to happen.

(Sorry....I was dreaming again).

You're right...the rich don't earn their money....they sweat it out of every pore....every night...much more than you. Occasionally a few of those folks who become rich...well they just get lucky....Bill Gates among others.

Most however, just worry about you. Your family. The next payroll. Because they actually care.

They're small business owners.

That guy or girl that pays you...you might think about them on occasion. Most of them don't drive as nice of a car as you.

Some did well.

And every bit of their success was, if they'll admit it...as I will gladly do...is due to their employees....but don't think for a second....not even for a heartbeat....that those people...the ones that live on the hill....didn't earn every penny.

Most lost a lot of sleep during the process.

And most of it was lost worrying about whether or not you and your family would eat while they lived on crackers building their dream (yeah...I get it...it was their dream...not yours)...which not only could have....but probably did....crash a thousand times while you watched HBO...absolutely, inconsolably....were unaware, blissfully of their efforts.

I'm always stunned at the folks who have it out for those who have done well.

Most of the ones that have done well....have done well, largely on the backs of their own families...on the backs of those who hope they'll succeed...on the backs of those who have invested in them....and almost never on the backs of those who walk in the front door, certain they're the only reason this person has kept their doors open as long as they have.

I'm just saying....on occasion...you might just want to give your boss a handshake once in a while.

(He's probably working a lot harder than you think he is).

Rant over.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 2/15/2009 8:49:58 PM >

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 26

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/15/2009 9:30:57 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

Beautifully said.

Been there. Done that.

Hippie hasn't.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)

Post #: 27

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/15/2009 9:59:27 PM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Beautifully said.

Been there. Done that.

Hippie hasn't.

Firm

Well, since you seem to know everything about me, you would know that I have indeed been a small business owner and have indeed struggled to make payroll and to get the quarterly tax payments out on time and to pay the triple-net lease rent and accrue for the business license and the liquor license and pay my vendors and budget for pest control and the dishwasher chemicals and on and on and on. You would know that.

So here is proof that you don't know everything.

Please spare me the Horatio Alger bullshit that everyone sitting in that house on the hill started out as a barefoot orphan who had to walk 20 miles to school uphill each way. The majority of wealth - real wealth - held in this country was inherited.

LookieNonookie's rant would have the people who know me literally ROTFLAO. When he has had to shovel raw sewage out a basement because the cast iron rotted and the plumber who installed it - probably Joe the plumber - didn't know that water runs downhill, he can talk to me. When he has spent 12 hours a day laying tile and grouting it in a fixer-upper, he can talk to me. When he has crawled around on a roof replacing shingles and a skylight in August in Georgia, he can talk to me. And all this being a chronic pain sufferer.

Until then, he doesn't have a thing to say that would remotely interest me. Nor do you.

< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 2/15/2009 10:08:00 PM >

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 28

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/15/2009 11:31:19 PM

awmslave

Posts: 599
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline

quote:

In September and October of 2008 it looked as if the financial system of the United States would collapse at any moment. Even Pelosi and Reid understood that it was not a time for an agenda driven political stance.

This is what they told you. Nobody really understood the situation fully including Paulson not even speaking of Pelosi and Reed. If you watched the news it became obvious.

quote:

The investors in bank equities..down 85% from where they were a year or so ago got wiped out. These are not all Vikram Pandit's, John Mack, Jamie Dimon or Bernie Lewis...these are average folk who bought local banks like Wachovia, for example, and saw their nest egg destroyed. TARP did not save the rich..it saved the banking system.

Investing in stocks is is risky business: if value is not there any more giving them taxpayer money means transfer of public wealth to certain group or simply robbery. Why did not stockholders and mutual fund managers watch ther investments?

quote:

TARP did not save the rich..it saved the banking system.

It did not save the banking system; the banking system does not cease to exist if even half of the banks go bancrupt. It resqued possibly a few big banks because they have their own strong lobby in Washington. It is early to say what effect TARP has. If they use the money to buy so called "toxic assets" (basically wortless junk) it will be simply grand theft.

I want to see blood in the streets, coroprate pirates in prison, debts written off the balance sheets through bancruptcy, corrupt government replaced with decent people, rules of the game changed. What we see now is typical "dog and pony show".
In summary: You can not preserve wealth that does not exist. Only thing you can do is to redistribute wealth and make virtual reality wealth real using
taxpayers money. This is what TARP is. The same applies to ideas proposing to preserve inflated house values.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 29

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/15/2009 11:57:58 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

You do realize that no self made man (gender neutral) has ever taken the role of the slave/ the victim or the equal.

Well I, for one, never realized that.

So, maybe you can enlighten me on this.

(in reply to xBullx)

Post #: 30

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 12:12:48 AM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

I'll agree Republicans have pissed away their options... but to suggest that those who have money haven't earned it is equally as fallacious.

Indeed, it's those with money (Republicans or otherwise), earned or given....who have worked their asses off.

So, how did Paris Hilton earn her money?

Oh, wait, never mind.

I remember, she did work her ass off fucking and sucking in that video, and she did a damn fine job.

But didn't she have money from somewhere before that?

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 2/16/2009 12:13:47 AM >

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)

Post #: 31

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 12:35:08 AM

SummerWind

Posts: 314
Joined: 7/4/2007
Status: offline

Some people are smarter and/or work harder than others. Although no one despises the useless fuckers who inherit a bucket of money and spend their lives pissing it away in self indulgent behavior, I'm not aware of a system outside of the USA that does a better job at compensating for skills, effort and results than ours. Yeah, I know our system has it's share of greed, fraud and bad intentioned people but there's a hell of a lot more people trying to get here than leave.

btw - I'm stopping by the Beacon Theater next month for an evening with the Allman Brothers. I'm setting the over/under on Hippie attended Allman Brother concerts at 23...

< Message edited by SummerWind -- 2/16/2009 12:43:13 AM >

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 32

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 2:06:10 AM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SummerWind

Some people are smarter and/or work harder than others. Although no one despises the useless fuckers who inherit a bucket of money and spend their lives pissing it away in self indulgent behavior, I'm not aware of a system outside of the USA that does a better job at compensating for skills, effort and results than ours. Yeah, I know our system has it's share of greed, fraud and bad intentioned people but there's a hell of a lot more people trying to get here than leave.

I am. The system is called Germany.

quote:

btw - I'm stopping by the Beacon Theater next month for an evening with the Allman Brothers. I'm setting the over/under on Hippie attended Allman Brother concerts at 23...

You'd lose. At 23 I was working on earning my DD214.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to SummerWind)

Post #: 33

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 5:26:05 AM

xBullx

Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

You do realize that no self made man (gender neutral) has ever taken the role of the slave/ the victim or the equal.

Well I, for one, never realized that.

So, maybe you can enlighten me on this.

Nothing complicated about what I said, I suspect if someone needed this explained the explanation would exceed reader comprehension in any event.

If the inclusion of the word "slave" has your knickers in a knot I suggest you leave your playtime terminoligy in playtime.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 34

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 5:46:51 AM

Lynnxz

Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline

Great, not only do we have political pissiness in this thread, now someones got to bring in the TWUE slave component.

Sorry. This is the only thing I can think of when I see the title.

*Edit*

Brilliant post Nookie

< Message edited by Lynnxz -- 2/16/2009 6:13:47 AM >

_____________________________

HBIC

(in reply to xBullx)

Post #: 35

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 6:10:40 AM

Crush

Posts: 1031
Status: offline

Well said, Lookie....very well said!

When my wife was pursuing her dream as a restaurant owner, it reflected every thing you said. She would go for weeks without taking anything home but a sandwich or two for dinner. I never got paid for the times I worked the register or mopped the floor. But our employees got paid and got most of the "leftovers" of the day.

As the CTO of the university for a while during an extreme financial crisis (we had to sell 60+ million in assets to stay afloat), it was very true of most upper management as well. I was more worried about making sure the folks that worked with me got something and while I couldn't give them a raise, I did give them "bonuses" out of my pocket. And I wasn't the only "executive" doing that at the university.

When you have a dream, as you say, you do what you have to to achieve that dream. And you put the people who help you achieve it first. Because without them, there is no way to achieve that dream.

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to Lynnxz)

Post #: 36

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 6:40:05 AM

xBullx

Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

Great, not only do we have political pissiness in this thread, now someones got to bring in the TWUE slave component.

Interesting...

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Lynnxz)

Post #: 37

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 7:17:44 AM

xBullx

Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline

Greetings Lookie,

You have a very well stated post.

I see this as being pretty much in line with natural selection and it's rather contrary with the concept that became an over used campaign phrase of McCain, "The Distribution of the Wealth".

In General:

The Greatest athletes become All-Stars, Pro Bowlers or Gold Medlists.

The Best Military leaders become Generals, or more appropriately Sergeants Major

.

The Best Businessmen become wealthy. As it should be.

I agree that some have wealth handed to them, but it is foolish to fret over this. If the silver spoon club are incapable of sustaining their wealth it will soon belong to the man that can rightfully take it. A fool and his money will soon be parted.

Men (again gender neutral) that are capable, will rise to the top. Those sitting around whining about their terrible life or the unfair conditions that are holding them back (in chains/ slave reference/ it's a mental thing) will serve those with the ability to own. Or in other terms; those with the skill, determination and or the ruthlessness to take and keep what they want will be the masters. If you don't like your present position, do something about it on your own.

Interestingly enough in the good ole' US of A up to this point, the master can be anyone that is on his game. I hope it remains as such, if not I suspect we will too become appathetic as a nation and our wealth will vanish.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)

Post #: 38

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 11:37:29 AM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

fr

HK, playing argument nice today eh ? Cool. I am not going to dwell on your spelling of Amerika, I think I know what you meant and might have something to do with a certain movie years ago. However again I must point out the US is not the whole of America, only a part of North America. But then actually you could be talking about the whole world, because there are rich people in just about every country.

I read years ago that when income disparities between the rich and poor reached these levels the time was historically ripe for revolution. However a few things are now at play that were not in the times to which the author referred, who in fact said revolution was unevitable. Sort of made up his own rule of history there, but as we know rules are made to be broken.

I believe the other factors, which exist today are the sheeplisation of the people, the extreme power of the government and the availability of credit and certain social welfare programs are what have forestalled this.

I believe that certain people do deserve to be rich. Regardless of public opinion, that might include Bill Gates, but think of Thomas Edison, George Washington Carver, Alexander Graham bell. Actually IIRC the latter three did not really get rich.

To get rich you focus on money. If you want an omelet though, you might have to break a few eggs. The rich of today, most of them anyway, really did not earn it. And that's not even mentioning the uber riche, the ones who's names are not so widely known, the ones who could buy and sell Bill Gates with pocket change. There is no innovation, no invention or whatever that warrants that kind of weal, you are born into it.

For example George Soros. Almost all his money was made by speculation, currency speculation actually. In that, it takes money to make money, and alot of it. To be able to make a hundred grand in a day because of a few pence flutuation in a currency's value takes alot of money indeed. So from where came the original stakes ?

Old money. It's ironic to me that one of the planks of communism is the elimination (or strict limitation) of inheritance, and that these uber rich are the ones who promote communism, or at least communistic ways across the globe. They seem to want it for us but not for themselves.

I'm proud to have owned a successful business, and glad that I knew when to get out of it. Demographics changed and I was offered a good job. No more books (all three sets) no more paying out of pocket in the slow season, no more responsibility. Well some, but nothing like being the boss. I don't want it, at least in that type of work.

So I work for a wage, and I don't deserve nor expect to get rich.

From what I've read, the rich are concerned with image though. I read an article pretty damnning of Andrew Cargenie, that the foundation was like dropping a nickel on the ground to him, and that his philathropy was driven by his own personal social engineering agenda. Also opinion, but I found it notable.

I read sometime in the 1970s or 1980s that there were a million millionaires in this country, I would imagine that now there are alot more, but being a millionaire today is not what it once was. One good lawsuit can wipe you out, and even if you win legal fees are going to hurt. Give until it hurts I guess.

Maybe it's the scale that differs. Even though the extreme disparity of income levels exists, in a way the poor are not so poor, and the rich are not so rich, as the numbers indicate. With a graduated tax structure (another plank of communism) in place, and a few other factors, the disparity is not so easily seen.

Just one Man's opinion.

T

(in reply to xBullx)

Post #: 39

RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 11:53:27 AM

hardbodysub

Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Can anyone seriously argue that wealth is not being concentrated towards the top?
http://www.demos.org/inequality/numbers.cfm

It will always be this way. If it were all evened out, within a generation you would again see it start sliding to a small percentage holding the wealth.

Only if we allow the system to stay rigged that way.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 40

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