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RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 5:57:05 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Can anyone seriously argue that wealth is not being concentrated towards the top?


(Uhhhhmmm...wealth, by definition...is concentrated at the top!).



Incorrect. The word "wealth" does not imply unequal distribution. Wealth is economic resources, and the word itself has nothing to do with where or how it is concentrated. The prevailing economic and political systems determine its distribution.


I would beg to differ....politics and economic systems haven't determined any distribution I've acquired.

(But you can go ahead and believe that if it makes you feel better).

(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 6:03:35 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

What a crock.  Sam Walton certainly earned his money the same way you and I do...he went out and started with a little and stuck to it and wound up with a lot.  A hell of a lot.  As did the founders of J. C. Penney and Montgomery Ward and Ford, etc..

I am soooooooooo tired of the mantra of "the rich get this break and the rich get that break and the poor get nothing".  What a load...the poor got houses that they could not qualify to buy because the government put pressure on institutions that had the banks facing being charged with racism if they did not give loans to these people, if they did not qualify people who could not come up with the down payment.  President Obama's "fave" organization stands to get almost 4 billion in the "Porkulis" package.  In my own state, almost a 3rd will go to helping the homeless...not by giving them jobs or building a new company where they might get jobs...just helping them.

And what would you have the "government" do...take away money that rightfully belongs to someone else---whether inherited or earned---because the people have decided that an amount beyond a certain number is too rich?  Perilously close to the old Marxist mantra:  To each according to their needs, from each according to their means.  Does...not...work.  No man will ever go out and work for others in the same way he will work for himself and his own.  Nor should he have to.

You want fairness...I agree, get rid of some of the loopholes that are used by the wealthy BUT at the same time, quit shoring up those ...and you know they exist...who have been too lazy, too "sick", too something to get up off their ass and go to work.  Institute a "flat tax"...a fair tax...across the board.  If they take 15 percent of my income, then take 15% of the CEO's income and 15% of the factory worker's income.

Sam Walton 'earned' his money by purchasing 80-90% of what he sold at Wal-Mart from the Chinese 'gulag.' How many college degrees and real effort did it take to do that ? For all world-wide comparison he used essentially...slave labor. The remaining capitalists were just later to the game.



Guess what?

You and 200 million other US citizens are buying that gulag stuff.

(And by the way...when Sam first started out, the bulk of his purchases came from US firms...and they still do...today, over 67% of WalMart products still come from US firms {not the 10 - 20% you indicate}.  The reason why they buy from the gulag, as you say, is because US firms won't produce it for the prices that....you....are willing to pay.  Stop buying Chinese made barbeque's...and guess what happens?  WalMart/Target/Lowes/Home Depot/True Value...etc....will stop selling them).

Funny how that works, ain't it.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 2/16/2009 6:12:36 PM >

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 6:10:03 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub
Doing trade as a corporation is fully taxed at the corporate rate. You are creating a situation that I have never seen in the "real world" and would love to know of any companies that are
paying a 15% "capital gain tax' on their earnings.  Capital gain taxes apply to assets held more than one year


Actually, capital gains taxes are paid on anything that you have made a capital gain on, regardless of the time span it occurred within.

The only difference in capital gains taxes are dependent on how long between the time you purchased it and when you sold it...occurred.  The longer you hold the item prior to selling it (up to certain time limits) the lower your taxable event is/becomes.

Capital gains tax law is designed such that they encourage you to hold it for a longer period, discouraging by virtue "flippers" (of any asset class) which are bad for any economy because they heat up economies and cause boom and bust cycles.

(in reply to corysub)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 8:15:16 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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There is no rigging, it is human nature. The best at something will eventually gain it. Level the playing field today, and those that have no clue about keeping and making money will lose it to those who do. It has been like this since before there was currency, just the methods of aquisition have been different through out the ages.


quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Can anyone seriously argue that wealth is not being concentrated towards the top?
http://www.demos.org/inequality/numbers.cfm


It will always be this way. If it were all evened out, within a generation you would again see it start sliding to a small percentage holding the wealth.


Only if we allow the system to stay rigged that way.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 8:18:15 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub
Doing trade as a corporation is fully taxed at the corporate rate. You are creating a situation that I have never seen in the "real world" and would love to know of any companies that are
paying a 15% "capital gain tax' on their earnings.  Capital gain taxes apply to assets held more than one year

Actually, capital gains taxes are paid on anything that you have made a capital gain on, regardless of the time span it occurred within.

The only difference in capital gains taxes are dependent on how long between the time you purchased it and when you sold it...occurred.  The longer you hold the item prior to selling it (up to certain time limits) the lower your taxable event is/becomes.

Capital gains tax law is designed such that they encourage you to hold it for a longer period, discouraging by virtue "flippers" (of any asset class) which are bad for any economy because they heat up economies and cause boom and bust cycles.

Close but no cigar.

Yes, doing business as a corporation you are taxed as a corporation. Some of the income those corporations earn are capital gains which if held for a minimum of 1 yr is taxed as long term capital gains just like you and me that portion of which is taxed at long term [sic] capital gains tax rate of 15%. Taxing a corporation's earnings from sales as opposed to long term capital gains can be in the 30% range. If a corporation. buys stock in a co. holds for a year, sells at a profit, that profit is taxed as long term capital gains and taxed 15%...period, just like any other long term [sic] capital gains.

There are for tax purposes either short (less than a year) or long (at least 1 year) term capital gains and the rate for short is the rate all other income is taxed, personal or corporate.

The capital gains tax is IMMORAL PRIMA FACIE I WILL write in caps and for the last time. For me there is no such thing as capital gains because then my income also should be 'capital gains' but is taxed as either regular business income or from wages, tips and salaries.

The 1 yr. (long term) capital gains tax laws are IMMORAL PRIMA FACIE  (I lied) and at 15% after only ONE year is lower then the tax than on 80% of the people and does not change up or down anytime after 1 yr. These taxes are DESIGNED so the rich making capital gains (money with money) on the golf course, hold a for a year, pay 15% while you bust ass 2000+ hrs and pay up to 35%. ONE year 'long term' [sic] capital gains is pure speculation NOT investment. People have told me they hate having to pay a capital gains tax. I suggest to them...then don't have capital gains.

Don't ya just love the plutocracy ?

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 8:18:43 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

(And by the way...when Sam first started out, the bulk of his purchases came from US firms...and they still do...today, over 67% of WalMart products still come from US firms {not the 10 - 20% you indicate}.


I'm always skeptical when someone posts numbers but fails to document their source.

I'm even more skeptical when someone tells me that the majority of Wal-Mart products are U.S. made.  I try to buy American whenever possible. I have never, even once, found a non-food item I needed at Wal-Mart that was produced in the U.S.



Wake-Up Wal-Mart: The Real Wal-Mart Facts
70% of the commodities sold in Wal-Mart are made in China. ... Wal-Mart was responsible for about 1/10th of the U.S. trade deficit with China in 2005.


Wal-Mart's China inventory to hit US$18b this year
Updated: 2004-11-29 15:21
China Business Weekly

70% of the commodities sold in Wal-Mart are made in China.


"If Wal-Mart were an individual economy, it would rank as China's eighth-biggest trading partner, ahead of Russia, Australia and Canada," Xu said


frontline: is wal-mart good for america? | PBSNov 16, 2004

Today, 60 percent of Wal-Mart’s merchandise is
imported, compared with just 6 percent in 1995.

Of Wal-Mart's 6,000 global suppliers, experts estimate that as many as 80 percent are based in China.


(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 8:21:43 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

1) I buy and sell things that already exist. I hire labor, pay them well and they pay 35% federal income tax on upper salaries. I sell at a higher value that your labor added and after 1 year long term [sic] capital gains and pay 15% federal tax on those gains. You could pay $35,000 on your $100,000 income from your getting up in the morning and labor and I pay $15,000 on $100,000 capital gains I made on the golf course (where all there is...is lunch and others like you, have jobs) ...whatever that is.


You mean you come up with a better or cheaper product to sell? You invest in yourself and your company? You take risks to gain rewards? Since you own this company, how much do you and that company pay in taxes, and I mean all taxes?

quote:


2) I develop a piece of commercial property and lease it up at a cost of X. Once leased up just enough (or even fully) obtain a non-recourse mortgage at X + ? millions maybe (lender can only take the building) based on a certain X times net cash flow all of which I turn over to the lender. The mortgage amount over and above my total cost (basis) I put in my pocket TAX free and walk away from the building. You see...I did not sell so I don't even pay a capital gains tax. My 'earnings' are not earnings at all but the proceeds of a loan.

Want more ?

The rich, the corporations and their lobbyists...actually write the laws of this country through what the OP is trying to illustrate...a PLUTOCRACY. After all...all that money is now 'free speech' people. [sic]



This plutocracy, will always exist, in some shape or form. Be better, smarter, stronger, and things can be better.

You are missing some extra taxes in your examples by the way, but I would rather you find yourself in this position of having money and learn it for yourself.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 8:32:11 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

There is no rigging, it is human nature. The best at something will eventually gain it. Level the playing field today, and those that have no clue about keeping and making money will lose it to those who do. It has been like this since before there was currency, just the methods of aquisition have been different through out the ages.


quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Can anyone seriously argue that wealth is not being concentrated towards the top?
http://www.demos.org/inequality/numbers.cfm

It will always be this way. If it were all evened out, within a generation you would again see it start sliding to a small percentage holding the wealth.


Only if we allow the system to stay rigged that way.


Before there was currency in this country, there was no income tax or capital gains taxes...there were adjusted gross business income taxes and user (excise) fees and taxes and not much of those.

Yes, there will always be the rich...some successful and some inherited but the earnings called 'capital income' i.e., making money with their money, will still be just as easy and should be taxed at well over twice that of labor...not the other way around.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 2/16/2009 8:33:05 PM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 8:58:38 PM   
UPSG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Oh, I know exactly what's been going on in China.

The Chinese Politburo discovered after many years of literally starving millions and millions of Chinese peasants to death and after other staggering atrocities committed in the name of the people that, no matter what they did, Socialism can never work. And so in desperation they have recently began to introduce limited capitalism, and their economy took off like a rocket ship.

And today the experiment continues.


quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

You clearly have no idea of what has been going on in China for many years now. Economically, they have completely embraced unbridled capitalism, and the resulting unrestrained greed is what has resulted in the current slave labor issues and unsafe products.

The Communist Party has nothing to do with the economic concept of communism. They are purely a fascist political power that has retained their historic name.



To be fair, Chinese were starving and dieing before the Communist party ever arrived. China was a de facto colony of various European powers before Mao. Then again, the Chinese were no better toward the Vietnamese. Eh, humanity.

The Chinese can't be criticized to heavily by the people of the United States. I mean what does China have, something like a billion people I think? Something like that if not exactly like that. China is not even as wealthy as the U.S. in GDP yet it has raised something like 300 million people (the entire population size of the United States) out of abject poverty in the span of a meager several years. The United States is the richest nation to have ever existed on earth and I doubt it could raise a million people out of poverty. (well... it could it just won't )

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 9:12:51 PM   
UPSG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Without re-quoting both Sanity and cory but with all due respect, what we see is actually how things operate.

Something bought (anything, real estate, art, co. stock etc. bonds, securities) at one price and I sell later either creates short term capital gains or loses. Here we assume gains for our debate. Any corporation, LLC, sole proprietorship Sub chapter (s) corp...any business can do this and it goes down on schedule C income or some appropriate tax form.

After only a year my profit or gains are for tax purposes...long term gains which is ridiculous. I owe taxes of 15% of the net which is my sale price minus my basis (basis is all purchase costs and capital improvement costs) If I work for a salary that goes on 1040 either from w-2 or 1099 and my chart can take me up to about 35% of my adjusted gross income. That is immoral prima facie.

On China, they are NOT communists except in name only so the party leaders control the military (may not last forever) and maintain the police state while Chinese peasants may buy shoes making a few $/hr many millions come from the countryside (their land being stolen and developed) to earn $3/DAY to make 20 pairs of $200 basketball shoes, blue jeans, computers etc.

The so-called communist party has created between 100 and 200 Chinese 'communist' Billionaires some of which party and lose millions in Vegas. They steal the profits from the labor of their peasants.

For many capitalists, China is the modern role model of mixing 1 billion peasants into an industrial economy as to essentially steal their labor just as was stolen from slave cotton-pickers back in the day.


Note: There are 70-80,000 yes, THOUSAND riots every year in China put down by the brutality of the police to maintain this fascist slavery.

The western capitalist is taking great advantage of this and Sam Walton made himself a multi-billionaire building a chain of stores fighting unions, paying Americans as little as possible while purchasing his toys and sundry from the fruits of this Chinese slave labor.

China, call them or their govt. what you want but it is the prototypical modern slave state and have formed the model of capitalist fascism but ONLY to the benifit of party leaders and their most trusted and necessary staff, police, law, admin. etc. and that pay drops real fast or otherwise how could they create all of those great Chinese billionaires and captains of industry. Under all of that is the fascist corruption of management actually making a practice of stealing from their employees and without penalty.



Not everyone in China lives in such extremes. Some of the greatest impoverishment exists in the rural areas of China. This is true of parts of rural Northeastern Brazil that are on par with the most impoverished section of Haiti. The United States still has rural poor in the backwoods part of the U.S. South that live in shacks off of dirt roads (littered with cotton), that are hoisted on stilts, no running water or electricity, outhouses, and the shacks look like they about to fall over. I've seen this (a community) with my own eyes driving through a section of Virginia. If you dropped out of the sky, but for the black skin, you would not be able to tell if that was the United States or Peru.

Rio de Janeiro, Shanghai, Chicago... all offer "first world" amenities and boast middle-class citizenry that live a world a part in lifestyle from those poor I just mentioned.

Consumerism is marching so fast ahead in China that they are marked in less than 10 short years to surpass both the United States and Japan as the number one consumer of luxury goods in the world. In fact the Chinese youth in the cities are probably worse than U.S. youth as spendaholic consumers. These are young people from 35 years of age downward who buy, buy, buy. Cell phones are in such demand in China that the Chinese market has something like 80 more different brands than the American market to choose from - something like that but don't quote me on the exact number.

Of course there are millions of people in Chinese cities (and not just rural areas) living in abject poverty and virtual wage slaves. But let us acknowledge China has a growing middle-class too and an ever growing consumer population.  

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/16/2009 10:59:35 PM   
MrRodgers


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Look, the whole point is that it is easy to make a profit off what is obviously slave or ok, let's call it cheap peasant labor. Either way the so-called Chinese miracle is a miracle for the party principals and their cronies and a few million actually working in some sort of a profession.

For over a billion Chinese...it is a nightmare. Sam Walton and others are or were proudly capitalizing on 'communist' fascist oppression, low wages...to make billions. The same thing is happening in Viet Nam, Haiti among others. It is the future and we will have the capitalist dream.

(in reply to UPSG)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/17/2009 4:39:12 AM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub
Doing trade as a corporation is fully taxed at the corporate rate. You are creating a situation that I have never seen in the "real world" and would love to know of any companies that are
paying a 15% "capital gain tax' on their earnings.  Capital gain taxes apply to assets held more than one year

Actually, capital gains taxes are paid on anything that you have made a capital gain on, regardless of the time span it occurred within.

The only difference in capital gains taxes are dependent on how long between the time you purchased it and when you sold it...occurred.  The longer you hold the item prior to selling it (up to certain time limits) the lower your taxable event is/becomes.

Capital gains tax law is designed such that they encourage you to hold it for a longer period, discouraging by virtue "flippers" (of any asset class) which are bad for any economy because they heat up economies and cause boom and bust cycles.


Close but no cigar.

Yes, doing business as a corporation you are taxed as a corporation. Some of the income those corporations earn are capital gains which if held for a minimum of 1 yr is taxed as long term capital gains just like you and me that portion of which is taxed at long term [sic] capital gains tax rate of 15%. Taxing a corporation's earnings from sales as opposed to long term capital gains can be in the 30% range. If a corporation. buys stock in a co. holds for a year, sells at a profit, that profit is taxed as long term capital gains and taxed 15%...period, just like any other long term [sic] capital gains.

There are for tax purposes either short (less than a year) or long (at least 1 year) term capital gains and the rate for short is the rate all other income is taxed, personal or corporate.

The capital gains tax is IMMORAL PRIMA FACIE I WILL write in caps and for the last time. For me there is no such thing as capital gains because then my income also should be 'capital gains' but is taxed as either regular business income or from wages, tips and salaries.

The 1 yr. (long term) capital gains tax laws are IMMORAL PRIMA FACIE  (I lied) and at 15% after only ONE year is lower then the tax than on 80% of the people and does not change up or down anytime after 1 yr. These taxes are DESIGNED so the rich making capital gains (money with money) on the golf course, hold a for a year, pay 15% while you bust ass 2000+ hrs and pay up to 35%. ONE year 'long term' [sic] capital gains is pure speculation NOT investment. People have told me they hate having to pay a capital gains tax. I suggest to them...then don't have capital gains.

Don't ya just love the plutocracy ?



Don't really matter if it's immoral or not...a capital gain is a taxable event whether you obtained the gain 11 minutes after you purchased the asset or 11 years.

The only difference is the rate you pay.

(Close...but no cigar).

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 2/17/2009 4:54:06 AM >

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/17/2009 4:49:08 AM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

(And by the way...when Sam first started out, the bulk of his purchases came from US firms...and they still do...today, over 67% of WalMart products still come from US firms {not the 10 - 20% you indicate}.


I'm always skeptical when someone posts numbers but fails to document their source.

I'm even more skeptical when someone tells me that the majority of Wal-Mart products are U.S. made.  I try to buy American whenever possible. I have never, even once, found a non-food item I needed at Wal-Mart that was produced in the U.S.



Wake-Up Wal-Mart: The Real Wal-Mart Facts
70% of the commodities sold in Wal-Mart are made in China. ... Wal-Mart was responsible for about 1/10th of the U.S. trade deficit with China in 2005.


Wal-Mart's China inventory to hit US$18b this year
Updated: 2004-11-29 15:21
China Business Weekly

70% of the commodities sold in Wal-Mart are made in China.


"If Wal-Mart were an individual economy, it would rank as China's eighth-biggest trading partner, ahead of Russia, Australia and Canada," Xu said


frontline: is wal-mart good for america? | PBSNov 16, 2004

Today, 60 percent of Wal-Mart’s merchandise is
imported, compared with just 6 percent in 1995.

Of Wal-Mart's 6,000 global suppliers, experts estimate that as many as 80 percent are based in China.




Funny thing about calculators...or statistics....they only work when you use them.

A global supplier is one who supplies things (in this case) to WalMart (and others)...globally...not nationally.  Considering that China is one of, if not the worlds largest manufacturers....it would make perfect sense that the majority would be located in China.

Notice your own quote:  "Wal-Mart's China inventory to hit US$18b this year"

A shocking number indeed.  Less so however when one considers that WalMart does over $300,000,000,000. (that would be billion) in annual sales....in the United States...which as most people who have access to a calculator would readily see...is 6% of their sales. 

However, considering inventory is registered on ones books "at cost" whereas sales are done at normal retail markups ("after the fact")...that would equate to roughly a 10% inventory to the whole (it would be a little less than 12% in most retail outlets, or what is known in the retail trade as "keystone"...buy something for 5 bucks...sell it for 10).


(Let me know if you need any other assistance at making sense of these statistics in the future).



< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 2/17/2009 4:52:33 AM >

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/17/2009 6:42:33 AM   
eyesopened


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From: Tampa, FL
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*sigh*  And what exactly is wealth?  Is it net worth in dollars?  Is it the amount of "stuff" one has? 

My net worth in dollars is roughly whatever I could possibly sell a kidney for.
Stuff?  Well, I own three televisions, a washing machine, a clothes dryer, a computer, a car, more furnishings than could fit in the back of a pick-up.... I eat every single day, and I eat more than one meal every single day.  I sleep on a mattress that feels like a slice of heaven under a blanket as soft as rabbit fur...

I wake up every day on the right side of dirt, happy, healthy, free of disease or discomfort or dispair.
I know unconditional love.

I'm about the wealthiest person I know.

And I never worry about what someone else has because no matter what I do or my government does there will always be people who have more "stuff" as well as people who have less than I.  The ONLY thing anyone ever gets in equal measure is 24 hours in a day.  How one spends THAT is the true definition of wealth.



_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/17/2009 7:05:54 AM   
rulemylife


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Thank you very much, that was a fascinating and extremely useful lesson in global manufacturing, inventory management, and pricing structure.

Now that you've tried to dance around the issue, maybe you can take time to address the primary fact in the post.

Which was that 67% of Wal-Mart products are not U.S. made as you claimed, but the exact opposite.





(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/17/2009 9:42:03 AM   
UncleNasty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

What a load...the poor got houses that they could not qualify to buy because the government put pressure on institutions that had the banks facing being charged with racism if they did not give loans to these people, if they did not qualify people who could not come up with the down payment.



This is a particularly uninformed statement.

There are literally thousands of statutes and regulations that govern lending, and in particular lending to those with less than stellar income or credit. Parties involved (mortgage brokers, originating lenders, etc.) have a fiduciary duty to borrowers to present them with accurate information that conforms to all the statutes and regulations. Many of these regulations are in place to prohibit exactly what you have described as providing loans and homes for people that can't or don't qualify. The breech of fiduciary duty lies with the professionals in the transactions - brokers, lenders, etc. - as they are the experts borrowers rely on to provide accurate information to be able to make an informed decision.

In the vast majority of loan documents I have looked at (and that is a large number) it is clear the information provided was not accurate and was not conforming to statute and regulation. Some of these violations are so egregious, and so consistent, as to indicate a pattern of fraud and material misrepresentation, and the potential for Federal RICO violations. I have read over several cases that allege RICO violations (see Whitaker v Deutsche in the Northern District Ohio Eastern Division, Case No. 1:08CV300), and I can assure you there are others that are being prepared currently.

I suggest you devote some time to reading Truth in Lending Act, Home Owners Equity Protection Act, Federal Trade Commission statutes and regs, Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, etc.


Uncle Nasty

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/17/2009 11:14:56 AM   
UPSG


Posts: 331
Joined: 1/22/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

*sigh*  And what exactly is wealth?  Is it net worth in dollars?  Is it the amount of "stuff" one has? 

My net worth in dollars is roughly whatever I could possibly sell a kidney for.
Stuff?  Well, I own three televisions, a washing machine, a clothes dryer, a computer, a car, more furnishings than could fit in the back of a pick-up.... I eat every single day, and I eat more than one meal every single day.  I sleep on a mattress that feels like a slice of heaven under a blanket as soft as rabbit fur...

I wake up every day on the right side of dirt, happy, healthy, free of disease or discomfort or dispair.
I know unconditional love.

I'm about the wealthiest person I know.

And I never worry about what someone else has because no matter what I do or my government does there will always be people who have more "stuff" as well as people who have less than I.  The ONLY thing anyone ever gets in equal measure is 24 hours in a day.  How one spends THAT is the true definition of wealth.


Their truth in what you say. However, we also should distinguish between absolute poverty and relative poverty. Most men and women through the high-income nations states like Japan, Italy, France, Australia, and the U.S. and U.K. that live in poverty fall under what economist would call "relative poverty." Not everyone is like this especially in the United States, we do have some that live in complete abject poverty.

Quality of life can be judged in nation states in collective terms, by using things like height mean (average). The United States is no longer the tallest nation on earth per the mean. This is largely to due to the drop and or stagnation in quality of life throughout much of the U.S.



MrRodgers, I don't entirely agree with your assessment of China. That nation is undergoing an engineering boom equal - and on far grander scale - than the building of New Orleans in the middle of swamp land. Cities of 300,000 or more are popping up in what seems like the speed of "over night" and increasing numbers of its youth are experiencing an era of glitzy night life along with the consumerist qualities of a Chicago. Granted, much of this disposable income is partly due to the Chinese maintaining extended families longer than those in the United States.

(in reply to eyesopened)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/17/2009 11:54:02 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

The point of my post was conveniently missed. You're reacting as though I said all income and wealth should be distributed equally, which I didn't even come close to saying. And I didn't say that nobody should inherit anything, which you also imply. You've ignored everything I said about reward for work and being able to pass along wealth to dependents. So you're arguing against things I never said.
  Actually, I am arguing against your point of "distribution of wealth" at all.  If you (the generic you) didn't earn it, didn't work for it, aren't related to the one (s) who made it...then you have NO right to it.  There is no God-given right to the fruit of someone else's labors.

quote:

"Just who is going to decide what's fair" is exactly what I was talking about. Right now, the rich decide that, and they've decided to keep it all to themselves. That's the way our system is set up. You seem to contend that, since they have the wealth, they must be smarter and more able to make the right decisions. That's wrong on at least two counts: (1) Most of the wealthy didn't earn it themselves; and (2) even if they did earn it themselves, that doesn't make them any smarter, any better than anyone else at deciding what is best for the whole country.
  The rich...whether on the Democratic side like John Kerry or George Soros (sic) or on the Republican side like G. Bush or Sam Walton are going to be in power or behind those that are.  But that is not what we were talking about, we were speaking about THEIR wealth.  And that is the key point...it is THEIR wealth;  not mine, not yours, not the homeless person on the street.  They can spend it anyway they want to from backing a left-leaning filmmaker like Michael Moore to backing a conservative publication such as the National Review.  In a free society such as ours, no one has the right to take it from them, whether they be on the right or on the left or somewhere in the middle.  Their short-sighted self-interest can very well lead to horrible situations just like we have now. I didn't say the poor should decide it either. As I said, balance is needed. Time for reasoned negotiation, not the absurd extremes.
Reasoned negotiation as to what?  "O.K....you have made/inherited a lot of money.  If giving up some of that would save only ONE life, isn't it worth it?"  While that may be true, it is not for us or anyone else to decide whether or not that rich person has the OBLIGATION to do so nor is it for us to MAKE him do so by giving over something that is his.  There is a little something called the Bill of Rights that forbids the governmental seizure of another's property and that money...whether we like it or not...belongs to the one who made it and his/her heirs. 

(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/17/2009 12:02:09 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

What a crock.  Sam Walton certainly earned his money the same way you and I do...he went out and started with a little and stuck to it and wound up with a lot.  A hell of a lot.  As did the founders of J. C. Penney and Montgomery Ward and Ford, etc..

I am soooooooooo tired of the mantra of "the rich get this break and the rich get that break and the poor get nothing".  What a load...the poor got houses that they could not qualify to buy because the government put pressure on institutions that had the banks facing being charged with racism if they did not give loans to these people, if they did not qualify people who could not come up with the down payment.  President Obama's "fave" organization stands to get almost 4 billion in the "Porkulis" package.  In my own state, almost a 3rd will go to helping the homeless...not by giving them jobs or building a new company where they might get jobs...just helping them.

And what would you have the "government" do...take away money that rightfully belongs to someone else---whether inherited or earned---because the people have decided that an amount beyond a certain number is too rich?  Perilously close to the old Marxist mantra:  To each according to their needs, from each according to their means.  Does...not...work.  No man will ever go out and work for others in the same way he will work for himself and his own.  Nor should he have to.

You want fairness...I agree, get rid of some of the loopholes that are used by the wealthy BUT at the same time, quit shoring up those ...and you know they exist...who have been too lazy, too "sick", too something to get up off their ass and go to work.  Institute a "flat tax"...a fair tax...across the board.  If they take 15 percent of my income, then take 15% of the CEO's income and 15% of the factory worker's income.

Sam Walton 'earned' his money by purchasing 80-90% of what he sold at Wal-Mart from the Chinese 'gulag.' How many college degrees and real effort did it take to do that ? For all world-wide comparison he used essentially...slave labor. The remaining capitalists were just later to the game.



Guess what?

You and 200 million other US citizens are buying that gulag stuff.

(And by the way...when Sam first started out, the bulk of his purchases came from US firms...and they still do...today, over 67% of WalMart products still come from US firms {not the 10 - 20% you indicate}.  The reason why they buy from the gulag, as you say, is because US firms won't produce it for the prices that....you....are willing to pay.  Stop buying Chinese made barbeque's...and guess what happens?  WalMart/Target/Lowes/Home Depot/True Value...etc....will stop selling them).

Funny how that works, ain't it.


Let's not forget one other...very important...reason why products made overseas cost less:  the good old union movement.  Take a look at GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda.  Of these 5 automakers, 3 are going broke and had to ask the government for money.  Guess which 3 are hampered by union contracts?  Guess which 3 should have taken bankruptcy, allowing the judges to institute re-organization so that the people running the company could have divested themselves of the union stranglehold?

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Amerika: of the Rich, by the Rich, for the Rich - 2/17/2009 5:32:36 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Thank you very much, that was a fascinating and extremely useful lesson in global manufacturing, inventory management, and pricing structure.

Now that you've tried to dance around the issue, maybe you can take time to address the primary fact in the post.

Which was that 67% of Wal-Mart products are not U.S. made as you claimed, but the exact opposite.


I'm glad you found that intriguing.  I too find facts interesting.

I think it's fairly clear...using the above poster's very accurate links...using his own data...WalMart clearly purchases most of their goods in the US.

I didn't have to paste those links...he did an exceptional job of things.

I don't think it's difficult math at all.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 2/17/2009 6:15:56 PM >

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 80
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