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A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 9:03:22 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		I've recently been in hiatus from anything D/S or BDSM as of late with school and work taking up the sole focus in my life. The break and detachment from any influence of the online community has given me a bit more of an objective perspective of it as a whole.

In this objective perspective, one of things that I have began to notice as a whole is that the D/S community spends a large portion of it's time and bandwith telling people what exactly a D/S relationship should be. It's hard to cross any "informative website" without finding a portion of essays devoted towards detailing what exactly a "real dominant" is, a "real submissive" is, and what a "healthy" or "good" D/S relationship should be. Message boards are filled with posters devoting quite a bit of time arguing about what is or is not D/S, who is real and fake, and what qualifies one as a dominant.

I'm really beginning to question whether or not being and involved and absorbed in a world of pre-set and pre-canned expectations and standards is all that healthy for one's relationship mentality. Some will, of course, claim being above the influence, but to say that external influence doesn't have some degree of effect on us is as silly as saying magazines, movies, and television hasn't molded our own standards of physical attraction and beauty.

Do the essays "The Falconer" and "Traits of a Good Dominant" really depict and exemplify real people or merely ideals? When has anyone ever met anyone who exemplified all the qualities typically attached to the mystical "dominant" in all their actions and behavior?

I think initially one of the things that really hampered my dating and let to disgruntlement and frustration was that I had a precanned idea of what exactly a submissive/slave should be in my own mind and was disapointed as the people I met constantly fell short of that expectation. It's something I slowly had to work my way from as I began to remember that I was dating "real people" and what existed in my own head wasn't a "real person".

When I think about it, I imagine that two people who were self aware of their own desires, but had absolutely no previous influence or expectation from an external source about how there relationship "should be" would be far better off than someone who had spent time educating themselves on the Internet or through the community. There would be no "failure", no "right" or "wrong" way of doing things, no "your not really a dominant", no "your not really a submissive", and no "topping from the bottom". The only possible way the relationship could fail is if both people didn't enjoy each other as opposed to failing to meet some pre-canned expectation that is completely abstract from who both people simply are.

There really isn't a question in all of this. I would appreciate any feedback, opinions, or thoughts that spawn from reading this.

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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 9:10:45 AM   
natasha66


Posts: 321
Joined: 10/14/2006
From: NJ
Status: offline 		I just say to each his/her own and leave it at that.  What works for me may or may not work for you, and that is ENTIRELY OKAY.  What gets my dander up is when people try to force their opinions on others, claiming they are right and everyone else is wrong.

_____________________________

"If you bother me again I shall visit you in the small hours of the night and put a bat up your nightdress".
~Basil Fawlty

Collared June 4th, 2008
Love is giving him the power to destroy you, but trusting him not to.



(in reply to MadRabbit)
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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 9:24:09 AM   
missfrillypants


Posts: 124
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline 		people will write about what they think the perfect way is, because it is in their nature to try and share the good things they have found which work for them and try to get others to use them, mostly they think this will make others happy, but many people have also learned how to separate their own ideas of what they want and the industry standard and admit that all ways do not work for all people.

there are followers of almost any ism out there, whether a flavor of bdsm or a religion, who will try to tell you that their way is the only way, and if you'd just do as they do it would make you happy. they can be funny with it or they can be irritating as all hell, especially when they attempt to force it on you, or to tell you that you're a horrible person, going to hell, lying to yourself, etc.

that's something i've always had to deal with in my life, and i figured out a long time ago... if something seems like something that might work for you, try it. if it seems like a bad idea, don't. if you try it and it doesn't work, discard it. if you love it, do it. but when it comes time to tell someone else "hey, the right way to do this is obviously X." if you never want to talk about it again or feel it's giving everyone unhealthy expectations, don't do it yourself. this thread is an expectation in itself... people like to label things, if for no other reason than to figure them out. for example, i have figured out enough about the type of people who label themselves as "goreans" that i know that i don't want them, so when someone calling themself a gorean attempts to convince me that maybe i do, i am skeptical. the label and the way people behave who take on that label have convinced me of this, just like i know that i generally do not like vanilla people who use certain labels to refer to themselves that tell me they will most likely think i am going to hell for being on this site, liking girls, dressing in all black, and a million other things. labels can and do limit people, however they are a good point to start off to describe things and the way people like to run their affairs, as well as a good quick rule of thumb to decide where you stand on something. going deeper and getting more information is always good, but sometimes people need to make a quick decision or have a quick checklist to refer to, and pre-canned expectations and labels give us that.

< Message edited by missfrillypants -- 2/18/2009 9:25:19 AM >

(in reply to MadRabbit)
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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 9:27:23 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		while i do believe there is great value in the online D/s community, there is a lot of garbage and nonsense as well that can really start to poison you, if you don't know any better. i was lucky, i did maybe a few months of "research" into pretty much one aspect of the lifestyle (M/s), before i happened upon the man who would become my Master. who i fear for are those people who go year after year with no real relationship experience in the lifestyle...and in the meantime they are reading every online essay and article, attending every munch and major event, every workshop, buying all the books, etc...and as a result becoming increasingly more confused and detached from who they truly are and what they truly need and desire in a relationship.

case in point...a good friend of my Master's...Dom, well-educated, experienced, generally awesome...began seeing this submissive who although in her 30s had never been involved in an actual D/s relationship. well they immediately had problems as she was constantly pointing out to him his many "mistakes"...he wasn't doing the things that she had read that a "real" Dominant was supposed to do...he wasn't introducing her to things in the proper and correct order she had read about...he was not guiding her in the direction she had read was The Way, etc. imo she's been so poisoned by this wealth of "information" that she is not likely to ever find a fulfilling D/s relationship at this point.

that is why i believe that the "research" should be done in serious moderation...also, always keep yourself in mind. what are YOUR needs, what would fill YOU, what drives YOU...and focus on that rather than trying to force yourself to fit into some mold. and most importantly, don't forget to get out there and just live life. keep an open mind and just live.

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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 9:36:10 AM   
MissEnchanted


Posts: 510
Status: offline 		daddysprop wrote:
'that is why i believe that the "research" should be done in serious moderation...also, always keep yourself in mind. what are YOUR needs, what would fill YOU, what drives YOU...and focus on that rather than trying to force yourself to fit into some mold. and most importantly, don't forget to get out there and just live life. keep an open mind and just live.'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Very astute and well said!

(in reply to daddysprop247)
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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 9:45:09 AM   
InTonguesslave


Posts: 342
Joined: 2/6/2009
Status: offline 		the internet creates a tendancy to become polarised by black and white - when reality kicks in and people get themselves into real time situations they realise there is no black and white.

im not sure if its fair to build up 'uber dom' and 'uber sub' characatures, but i spose there has to be a starting point for people to work from and better to set the bar high where everyone can see it.


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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 9:50:16 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		Any opinion or rule made by committee is bound to conflict with indivduals.  But it's human nature to measure, weigh, sort and lable things, people, locations, experiences.  It may stem from a time when humans traveled in packs and hunted cooperatively.  Needing to know the strengths and weaknesses as compared to others in the pack was necessary for survival.

Expectation is a way to shorten the thought process for simple decision-making.  When I see a traffic light turn yellow I do not have to think about what color it will turn next, I EXPECT it to turn red and the only decision I have to make is whether to brake or attempt to beat the red light.  If we never knew what color the light would turn, we would have to wait and see and then make our decision.  The expectation, the predictible behavior of a traffic light makes life just a little easier.  But trouble is, we try to apply the same traffic-light predictibility onto unpredictible humans and that expectation is almost always a precursor to disappointment.  I see no difference in so-called vanilla relationships or kink or SMBD or whatever.  Some people will have expectations on what makes up the "perfect" wife, girlfriend, employee, boss, friend, pastor, bus-driver.  Often they will find those people do not live up to expectations.

Any group will try to have a concensus of what the group stands for whether a government, a church, a coven, a hockey team, and the individuals in the group will not all agree 100% but will settle for more agreeable than not as their measure for staying a part of that group. 

How we seem to make SMBD higher, better, or beyond any other aspect of human experience baffles me.

_____________________________

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No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 10:01:57 AM   
Maxwell67


Posts: 435
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		I do a lot of research here and in other places.  I have books and books on various subjects related to D/s, M/s and BDSM, both from the perspective inside the community and from entirely different perspectives (Group dynamics, technical manuals, cognitive behavioral therapy, you get the picture).  I am not looking for a previously marked path to follow and I have made that very clear to mine.  I am trying to build something that is unique to me (well, to us).  I am taking the time to set it all down on record and perhaps one day I will publish something on the subject.  In any case, I knew when I started that I was not going to follow some established way of doing things.  I am creating a sort of salad of techniques designed to meet my needs.

That being said, I still value the input I get from CM and other places, very highly.  What I have gained in reading and participating in these discussions has benefited me in more ways than I could explain here.

The difference is that I and mine have set aside all expectations (well we are trying to anyway) based on previous experiences with various factions in the community and are trying simply to adapt what we know into a system that will run smoothly for us.  It is mostly trial and error, but we do not count anyt experience we can learn from as a failure.  It is a slow process, but it does seem to be working.

< Message edited by Maxwell67 -- 2/18/2009 10:03:12 AM >

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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 10:08:59 AM   
bound4more


Posts: 128
Joined: 10/3/2008
Status: offline 		I think it's also been stated innumerable times that there is "no right way", no "the" way. So what is written here is no different than anything written anywhere - opinions. Even if the opinion is backed by experience, the fact is it's their experience and not necessarily everyones. Last time I heard about someone who was able to perform super human feats, he was dressed in blue and gold, had a cape and a big S on his chest (ha ha). These boards are like anything - take what you like and leave the rest.

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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 10:13:56 AM   
feydeplume


Posts: 935
Joined: 12/24/2008
Status: offline
quote:

The break and detachment from any influence of the online community has given me a bit more of an objective perspective of it as a whole.



There in lies the REAL issue. If you learn about this stuff from real people, face to face, you learn a completely different thing that what you read online. While i find online resources to be good and helpful for certain things, it can never replace or even compare to actually just hanging out with other people who actually DO this stuff and seeing how they breath, move, talk, laugh, spill their drinks, mouth off, make bad jokes, get caught up in discussions about this or that, and LIVE.

It is the difference between getting laid and watching porn. I use that example because it is so easy to understand. Actually doing the deed with a real person has almost nothing in common with watching people on a screen do actions that in some ways mimic the ones that you are really doing.

Wherever you are, there is a community of some sort. Real people with real rope, whips, minds, and horrible jokes that make you laugh so hard it hurts. People that do things that make your stomach flip in both good and bad ways. The visceral experience of human body interaction teaches a totally different "thing". 


_____________________________

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If it has testicle or tires, it's gonna give you the fidgets.
Pretend I said something witty and laugh.

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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 10:23:22 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		I think that a lot of the information out there about what constitutes 'appropriate' behavior in WIITWD (or any group of people who share some major defining variable of their lives) can be very helpful for those who are newly discovering their interests and figuring out how they fit -themselves- into a new set of ideas and practices, and fit those ideas and practices into them. The pattern is seen in political, religious, educational, and recreational communities, not just in the community of WIITWD.

One of the things that historically marks maturity -- either maturity in general, or maturity within a sub-category like, say, participation in a community -- is that point at which one can say "Yes, I see all these ideas about the 'right' way to do this, but I know myself, and for me, -this- is what is "right", regardless of what other people may think." That capacity to integrate what one sees and hears and feels into oneself and express it again as a style of participation marks the point at which one begins to obtain "mastery" of a given set of ideas/concepts. Whether or not the commensurate skills are yet to be obtained, it is at this point that the individual is mature enough to make effective decisions about which pieces of 'advice' to take, and which to leave behind for someone else... and also when the individual is most likely to decide that what -xhe- has become represents the "ideal" expression of this community, precipitating a whole slew of 'advice' from the new 'master' about what the perfect representation of the concept looks like... and it -is- the perfect representation... for hir.

Maybe there are people in the community of WIITWD who have ridiculous expectations. There are probably a lot of people who have expectations that are incompatible with what someone else is looking for, and that's pretty normal. There are probably a bunch of people who don't know why they're here, and some more who know why they're here and are seriously questioning their sanity... but if a person can stand here, be completely hirself, and still desire to be a part of the community, with all its ideosyncracies, I guess that's ok. I'm content in figuring that if someone doesn't want to be a part of the community, or doesn't resonate with what happens in an online community of this scope, xhe'll toddle off to where xhe feels better. I'll offer what insights I've garnered, and trust that the person on the other end of the screen will either take them or leave them, as suits hir situation, and that suits me just fine. I'll continue to expect what I expect, and sometimes I'll be disappointed, but that's just the way things go sometimes. At other times, I'll be pleasantly surprised when my expectations are exceeded, and I hope to be able to do my damndest to not take those times for granted. I am who I am. Some will like it, some will hate it, and some won't give a tinker's damn about me one way or the other, and that suits just fine. I have my preferences, usually molded by my experiences just like everyone else, but I hope I've had the opportunity to modify them with some chosen learning -- something I made the effort to go out and hunt. It may not be truth, but it's as close as suits me.


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 10:43:49 AM   
FRSguy


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		Great post Mad... For me personaly, I did the research for months, interviewed people... played around and tried to put my attitude in a box and basically when it was all said and done the only thing that really worked was to be myself. Kind went through a ton of shit and frustration just to end up at my point of origin with a way deeper understanding of myself, the people around me and the dynamics we share.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 10:56:08 AM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		This isn't a community thing at all, it's something which appears to be standard stock right through anything which is seen to differ from the mainstream..

It's becoming more and more commonplace in the LGBT community and is endemic right through the transgendered community, A cannot be a transsexual because she hasn't developed breasts, or B is really a transvestite because she still wears wigs. Who is gay? Who is a lesbian? Does it really matter?

For a lot of people yes it does. The Internet has changed the way we live, work and spend time together and it would appear that style has won the battle fair and square over substance. Before the Internet we took chances and worked it out together in person making our decisions as we went along. Nowadays most people appear to be willing to make those decisions based on what the situation and the other person seems, appears, or on what impression they form from the images that come to them via the monitor.

We want profiles that are filled out, almost everyone expects photos, some even expect webcams, phone calls, and in my mind it's this way because most people are just not prepared to make that initial effort and get to know the person who they're getting involved with. The problem is that the Internet does offer a degree of anonimity giving ample opportunity to a minority of people to lie, deceive, misrepresent themselves or distort the truth. Well this isn't so much the problem, part of human nature i guess, and perhaps the problem is that companies like IBM, Epson, Hewlett Packard etc have yet to come up with a handy little lie detector which sits beside your PC speakers.

One of the by products of all the advances in information technology is that assholes can freely communicate with anyone in the world leading to an increase in the activity we all know as talking complete and utter bollocks. This has given rise to an increase of BDSM theorists, hairsplitters and wheniwassers. You can identify the wheniwassers very easily as they tend to start many of their sentences with 'When I was a..' Hence the name - wheniwassers.

Personally I'm much more into TEM than TPE - TEM is the Trial and Error Method. In my opinion no amount of computer technology is ever going to replace that need to use my own common sense and to get to know people for who they really are, for my lifestyle is the one I'm living right at this moment in time and my community are the people I don't need a computer to communicate with. This (here) is my online community.

The rest is pure entertainment.

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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 10:59:24 AM   
DoctorDubious


Posts: 267
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I've recently been in hiatus from anything D/S or BDSM as of late with school and work taking up the sole focus in my life. The break and detachment from any influence of the online community has given me a bit more of an objective perspective of it as a whole.

In this objective perspective, one of things that I have began to notice as a whole is that the D/S community spends a large portion of it's time and bandwith telling people what exactly a D/S relationship should be.

SNIP


Yes, that is completely true!

But only because one of the most common
and enduring traits of all of us ego-bearing-humans
is that we love making up rules and regulations and
bylaws of all kinds .... and then foolishly thinking
that they "should" be followed by others.

Humans are (in other words) often engaged in telling others
the "right" way to do stuff.

Sigh. 

DoctorDubious

PS.... but the good new is ....
find a sympatico sub ...
train her in the RIGHTWAY
and it's all good, eh?

It only goes astray when
you mistake your particulars
for the Universe of All Things ...

(in reply to MadRabbit)
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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 11:02:13 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		For those who want to say it is only the "online" community who indulges in this stuff is fooling themselves.  Take Gor, they want it rigidly defined but unique to each one, talk about creating cognitive dissonance!  Same goes for leather and old guard, and all the other crap like TPE and the rest.

One of the most intoxicating and wonderful things I was able to create WITH BSB was a relationship that worked for US, at least while it did.  It was built to take care of OUR needs in whatever way worked for the two of us.  Shit didn't work?  We talked it out, tried new paths till we found one that worked for us.  We got tired of a path, we blazed a new one.

Hell, we are STILL creating a unique relationship together even if it isn't the romantic/LTR one we had before.

I was at a munch the other night and was talking to a woman who was brand new and she was busy exploring things (read slutting around) and when I told her about teaching a class on monogamy I could tell she suddenly felt like she was "doing it wrong".  I kept telling her "do it YOUR way for YOUR reasons" and if you are being true to yourself and not hurting others, that IS the way to do things.  She kept getting locked into conventional and rigid morality that is ultimately meaningless and useless.

Same goes for my next relationship, I have NO idea what it is going to look like.  I might be someone's "dominant sex slave" meaning she pays me to be her whore and I use her to fulfill what few things I haven't yet done.  I might be rewarded by the universe with a brilliant career and keep my own "sex slave".   Hell, I might buy a boat and sail off into the sunset.  It all depends on the woman I fall in love with and what is "right" for the two of us and trust me, social conventions be damned, all I want is to walk around drunk on life with time to smell the roses, wander on a beach or a mountain top and the occasional long morning at a cafe somewhere.

(in reply to FRSguy)
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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 11:08:30 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Michael, I love the sentiment of that last paragraph. I believe that is the best way for me to approach relationships as well. I hope to god I never have a set list of "must haves" when I am open to someone new.


< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 2/18/2009 11:09:37 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 11:14:17 AM   
feydeplume


Posts: 935
Joined: 12/24/2008
Status: offline

Pearls of wisdom, whether before swine or not, are still pearls.


_____________________________

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Pretend I said something witty and laugh.

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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 11:17:47 AM   
persephonee


Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline 		While it is not difficult to do, i need to agree with fey...i have a community. It is a very eclectic band of brothers, but it is where i go for solace and for smiles. i have yet to read the official handbook...altho i hear a rumor that there is a list of over 100 rules for slaves floating around on the internet somewhere...i have yet to type Norman into my search engine and CastleRealm shut down before my ass was blistered for the first time. Somehow i managed to find a centered and quality family to join, with a minimum of non consentual scrapes and bruises along the way. i would like to attribute that to my stellar judgement of character and lack of preconceived notions about "the community"....more than likely im just lucky, but there is a slim chance that it was because i didnt check my senses at the door.

_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 11:19:03 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Michael, I love the sentiment of that last paragraph. I believe that is the best way for me to approach relationships as well. I hope to god I never have a set list of "must haves" when I am open to someone new.



High praise indeed, THANK you!

(in reply to LaTigresse)
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RE: A Community of Ridicoulous Expectations - 2/18/2009 11:35:25 AM   
DrkIntensity


Posts: 6
Joined: 2/17/2009
From: Arizona
Status: offline
This is going to be a huge generalization, but I do believe that most have a pre-conceived idea of what a submissive, slave or Dominant should be. I don’t see anything wrong with that though. If you have some sort of idea in your head, it gives you a starting point from which to expand from. Granted, it’s extremely hard to find your exact ideal; but if you have a general direction in which you are leaning, it gives you an edge.
 
My husband and I have been married now for 19 years; I married him straight out of high school. Going into the marriage, I had a set ideal in my head of what I wanted and where I wanted it to head. Naturally, it did not follow the exact path that I wanted it to. It expanded in some areas, shrunk in others. Some ideas were so completely idiotic that they got tossed out the window within the first year, while others were introduced over time.
 
People are people; they have an idea of what they want; that idea lets them go looking for it. They may not find their exact; but people are also great compromisers. Take a little, give a little. Such is life.
 
Lise

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