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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 9:34:59 AM   
pdv99


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It's a label. All labels applied to people are to some extent misleading because all people are way more complicated/rich/diverse than labels. Labelling is convenient for canned food, and sometimes handy for people - but it's dangerous because you can start to confuse the label with the real individual. What's more the label could be plain wrong....... and it's more dangerous putting the wrong label on a person than labelling dog meat as tomato soup. So next time you are tempted to label someone as "vanilla" be sure you've taken time to peer inside the packaging and check the contents.

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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 10:15:12 AM   
pinkwind


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So, you will be challenging every definition then? Those for slave and submissive, Master and Dom, switch and curious, top, bottom....the list goes on.

Every definition is subjective, there is no one definition taken as the definitive by enough folk to make it a standard, and if someone tried to set such standards for a "lifestyle" or a "community" they would be cut off at the knees, socially if not physically!

So i look at it this way. Vanilla is generally meant to encompass everyone and everything that isn't covered loosely by the term Kinky, and then i adjust my own take on the subject from there. If you did the same too i am sure our definitions, while not poles apart, would be different, if not surprisingly so.


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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 10:35:19 AM   
InTonguesslave


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i dont know anymore.  to be honest i dont see what we do here as so different - its merely a question of degrees and open discourse.

i have vanilla g/f's whod love their men to be more in charge, a bit more spontaneously kinky (mildly so, but thats just down to exposure and experimentation) and im sure the men would love their women to be more of a whore more compliant and of course, vice versa.

in the end i think its just down to being able to talk openly, express freely and then go for it without inhibition or fear that theyre partner will be horrified.

all that we do thats different in the end, is open pandoras box and jump in.

having said that i do know of people who would be completely and utterly shocked if i told them even half of what my pandoras box contains.

but thats kink.... 

the whole TPE thing is so tied up with political correctness that for many its hard to imagine or fathom.  a guy from on here last night suggested i should 'wake up' and stop perpetuating my own misery.  conceptualising that a person might actually feel freer in a TPE relationship is one oxymoron too far for many, even on here.

so, in the end, i think that the term vanilla is somewhat redundant, when people from our own walk can make a judgement against us, i realise that its more to do with what a person might think than what a person might do and being able to respect a person for what and who they are, no matter how 'odd' or 'freaky' that may seem.

i know ive twisted this around, but i do see it as an acceptance thing, projected or personal the vanilla view of us is that we are bloody strange and if we can make value judgements between us of each other then how much more so amongst those that do not understand why we do what we do on any level.

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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 10:39:35 AM   
ResidentSadist


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The slap all universal definition of the slang vanilla is: “conventional”.   Therefore, because convention changes regionally and culturally, so do the boundaries of what is the proper use of the term.    In general, a safe defining line would be to parallel all kink with “not vanilla” and presume all else is susceptible to being vanilla. 

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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 11:20:21 AM   
TranceTara


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quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

quit eating deer


I am in rural Virginia, so that's not an option.

QED - quod erat demonstrandum, freely translated "it proves my point" (literal "that which had to be proven"). Once you live in the US for a while, you learn not to do things like "QED", "sub judice", "fortnight", and "the trouble and strife"....



AOK. 10-4.

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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 11:23:31 AM   
Amaros


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I disagree, "Vanilla" represents a division between what is often called the dominant culture and subcultural deviations with which the dominant culture is often at odds.

The dominant culture is always "vanilla", which one could define as "statistically average" possibly, the fat middle of the curve - but it really more of a cultural thing than a statistical thing, it's the orthodoxy, that which is considered "unquestioned", and above criticism, in social terms; the safe middle of the pack.

In Western culture, this means traditional, Judeo-Christian, no frills monogamy, roughly speaking: if there is kinky sex, it's neither recognized or alluded to, it is not validated - and it's always there, in spades, but if it isn't syncretized and whitewashed: i.e., Judeo-Christian monogamy could be described in kink terms as male supremacy, with a significant aspects of obedience training, orgasm denial (for women), breeding fetishes, psychological dominance, etc., etc., then it is denounced, and this gives you non-consensual objectification/humiliation of any competing social dynamic that appears to threaten the hegemony: perverts, faggots, feminazis, liberals, ecoterrorists, etc.

"Vanilla" among kinksters, is a cynical dismissal, and equates to "boring". "Pervert", coming from a Vanilla, by stark contrast, is an accusation, a charge that is practically interchangeable with criminal, and in fact, has historically been largely indistinguishable from "criminal", depending on place and time - i.e., it justifies the use of force, both legal and extralegal: when homosexuals are beaten, or prostitutes murdered, there is little concern from the orthodoxy, since by defying and refusing to conform to it's strictures, they have removed themselves from under the wing of it's social protection, and it is not uncommon to find this crossing over from the informal, to formal, institutional repression, at which point you can start talking about sado-masochism in earnest.

So, Vanilla encompasses this social dynamic as well, and this is a much larger distinction than merely how kinky you are, in fact, kink becomes largely irrelevant - it describes the degree of conformity to the dominant social mores of a culture, whatever it's statistical significance: it is dominant to the extent it is able to employ both social/peer pressure to siolate and marginalize deviations, and it's ability and propensity to apply force majeure to punish those "deviants" - even if there is little difference between them on the individual, behavioral level - it's all about the symbolic signicance of conforming to particular social mores, it's about status quo.

A long discussion of the complexities of interlocking r/K strategies would ensue here at this point, but if there is a less antagonistic way of describing it than "Vanilla, I'd like to hear it.

Technically, under the constitutional rule of law, there is no grounds for the formal establishment of any particular set of social rules or mores other than that which is proscribed by law, and elucidated in the Bill of Rights - informally, there are continual attempts to establish social hegemony through statues and social pressures alike, that itself reflects the constant evolutionary tension and balance between conformity and diversity.

This might seem a little heavy, but I have to go by the historical averages, rather than whatever state of equalibrium currently applies.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 2/20/2009 11:24:49 AM >

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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 11:34:44 AM   
TranceTara


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quote:

Mercnbeth
for this slave, "vanilla", or "non-vanilla" aren't terms she uses to describe daily activities or people...they are terms used to describe the contrast between different versions of relationship dynamics, sexual proclivities, music, financial instruments, information technology, etc., with value judgement reserved only for how that relates to self...not others or their choices.


I like that. I have contrasts within myself. To some in the BDSM community I might be more vanilla than others based upon my desires. To others I'd fit right in. "Oh that's so vanilla!" Yeah, but it's me. I'm a romantic. lol Put a splash of pain here or there, add this and that and I'm vanilla ice cream with nuts, fudge, cherries (metaphorical since mines long gone) whipped cream, etc.

And, what may have been termed vanilla in the 50s, well, nowadays might be kink. Just look at how TV and movies have changed. Long kisses in the 50s were taboo. Now, it's nudity and deep tongue and movies like Secretary.

quote:

pdv99
It's a label. All labels applied to people are to some extent misleading because all people are way more complicated/rich/diverse than labels. Labelling is convenient for canned food, and sometimes handy for people - but it's dangerous because you can start to confuse the label with the real individual. What's more the label could be plain wrong....... and it's more dangerous putting the wrong label on a person than labelling dog meat as tomato soupSo next time you are tempted to label someone as "vanilla" be sure you've taken time to peer inside the packaging and check the contents.

*smiles and nods head up and down* I like the way you put things. We could miss out on the greatest partner of our life.

And RresidentSadist, you bring up another good point of how *convention* changes. We each change as well so what I might have used vanilla for 10 years ago is much different now.

And Amaros, I see your point. I just think it depends on one's intent in using the word. When I am with people I know, when that term is used, it is used in a playful fund context. There is no judgment at all. One friend of mine is no longer heavily into the labels he was a few years ago. He was very immersed in the Leathe community. Now he can be happy coming home to his boyfriend and sitting and watching a movie eating popcorn. Sure, he still has his desires, but he has changed, his point of view is a bit different, as is mine.

I can use the term in several different way. It depends on context and intent.

Slinte,
TT


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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 11:34:56 AM   
Amaros


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In kink, we sublimate our savagery into forms of ritualistic behavior that stress self control - in orthodox "Vanilla" culture, it's merely disguised behind a thin facade of equally ritualized behaviors, until that facade breaks into orgies of mob violence - war, pogroms, formal and informal institutional forms of violence and repression of myriad varieties.

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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 11:41:09 AM   
Amaros


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You could say that the evolutionary value of kink, is that you test your self control by pushing yourself to it's very limits (depending on the whom), by confronting your own savagery, and thereby developing internal self controls - the opposite of this is to deny your savage urges, to punish them, to repress them through external controls until the point that these controls break down, leaving large demographic swaths with little or no internal controls.

We are all the same species, we have different instincts.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 2/20/2009 11:42:38 AM >

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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 11:55:02 AM   
Amaros


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Vanilla, as I say, = innocent - often, alarmingly innocent even of their own capacity for savagery. 

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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 12:43:30 PM   
chezzy71


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So are we talking vanilla bean or extract???..ok i'll guess bean..that seems to be the purer form.Vanilla is just a term that means that things are plain as can be..perhaps for some people,rather lame and boring.But there are no rules against adding some cocoa bean thank the heavens.Now i didn't mean to confuse you at all and i easily could have pulled a Henny Youngman on you and said"take my wife..please!! as the definition of vanilla.I'm just feeling a bit snarky is all..don't mind me..i have a warped sense of humor.

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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 12:49:26 PM   
CatdeMedici


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yeah and the current amount of mucous in your head isn't helping.

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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 1:14:17 PM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

You could say that the evolutionary value of kink, is that you test your self control by pushing yourself to it's very limits (depending on the whom), by confronting your own savagery, and thereby developing internal self controls - the opposite of this is to deny your savage urges, to punish them, to repress them through external controls until the point that these controls break down, leaving large demographic swaths with little or no internal controls.

We are all the same species, we have different instincts.


Disagree that kinky means more evolved and less likely to be abusive, get drunk and mistreat spouse(s) and offspring, less likely to commit road rage, etc etc etc.

From what you read on the boards, kinky means less able to have social skills, job skills, relationship skills etc. Or so I judge by the constant quoted emails where subs are required to get rid of their offspring, sign over title of their homes, turn their offspring into sex slaves in training, etc. And all on the first email or chat sesssion.

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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 1:17:29 PM   
Sfortzando


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineFae

Touche'! Oh math, language i will never speak, write, or fathem. 

Please, don't think that i was being snarky, i forgot to post my view after the link. The link was to back up that vanilla is a spice, though often it is used to discribe something as bland or tasteless.
i've used it this way too...

But it is a flavor. Maybe a different flavor than us BDSM inclined, but no less a flavor all its own. We are then,,, rock-road flavored?


I never have understood why Vanilla is used to describe something bland or tasteless, since it's actually one of the most complex flavors known to man with some 600+  flavor and aroma compounds. That said, it's also the most commonly used flavoring in america, especially in icecream, so I think vanilla has come to mean main-stream. Unfortunately, some people use the term vanilla to exclude in the same way hardcore Indi rockers use 'pop' and 'sell-out'. Seriously, they can be mean to Death Cab fans.  

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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 1:29:37 PM   
feydeplume


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well then let's get snob about it shall we? would it be Madagascar Vanilla or imitation vanilla flavor that we are trying to "define"?

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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 1:51:15 PM   
Sfortzando


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Imitation vanilla is actually vanillin derived usually from wood pulp or even coal, so the only compounds involved are vanillin, alcohol, and caramel colouring. While Madagascar vanilla is the most prevelant, I actually prefer Mexican vanilla. It's a bitch and a half to get a hold of though, so I'll usually settle whatever is available.

On a side not - everything I know about vanilla I learned from Good Eats, so I have exactly zero right to be snobish about it at all. :P

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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 2:15:44 PM   
piratecommander


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkwind

So, you will be challenging every definition then? Those for slave and submissive, Master and Dom, switch and curious, top, bottom....the list goes on.

Every definition is subjective, there is no one definition taken as the definitive by enough folk to make it a standard, and if someone tried to set such standards for a "lifestyle" or a "community" they would be cut off at the knees, socially if not physically!

So i look at it this way. Vanilla is generally meant to encompass everyone and everything that isn't covered loosely by the term Kinky, and then i adjust my own take on the subject from there. If you did the same too i am sure our definitions, while not poles apart, would be different, if not surprisingly so.



Firstly, I am not stating that I will challenge anyones definition of anything. Presumption can be the mother of all fuck ups, you presume my intentions, you are wrong.

The topic is intended to address a linguistic issue in terms of the word vanilla and it's arguable definition. You suggest I arrive at a definition myself in your post, I will not be foolish enough to attempt such a feat. Several posts so far have been very helpful to me in my attempt to explore U.S. English slang use of this term, I now wonder if my use of the term "slang" is understood in the U.S.

I say I will challenge the use of the term vanilla because it seems to be a label which varies in interpretation from individual to individual. Based on the responses here, I don't know anyone personally who is "vanilla". I am not stupid enough to use vague U.S English slang distinctions, I was merely trying to glean an understanding because I have many friends now in the U.S.

I would rather include myself in life than exclude others, and often steal a thought provoking phrase ...... "I am unique ... just like everyone else"

Please consider that U.S. English is not my first language, if I broke into my usual spoken English dialect even in type, I would not be understood here, indeed, I have already had my wife translate several phrases off these boards today because I try to learn languages and feel strongly that one should make such effort when visiting to integrate with people.

Pirate

Edited to make my phraseology less dialectic

< Message edited by piratecommander -- 2/20/2009 2:25:17 PM >

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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 2:56:26 PM   
MidMichCowboy


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Well piratecommander, I think this is a great discussion of the language. I think you bring a fresh perspective to it.

From the urban dictionary: Vanilla: normal and boring sex. Used by more sexually adventurous people kinked to describe the dull sex had by the unimaginative.

Now, who is qualified to judge how sex is for a person? I won't set myself up that way. I've known thrill seekers. It seemed they were always bored and searching for something different. Are they vanilla? I've know two people so in love with each other, just a touch between them seemed to carry overtones. So who is going to define it? I guess you could define a relationship that you were in. Was it boring ... OK, call it vanilla. Was it great ... so now it must be kinky? I don't know anyone, other than those involved in the relationship, who can judge it as vanilla or something special.

As far as being in or out, and sexual relationship I enter into is private. I do not feel any need to parade it in front of anyone. I don't judge those who do, I've been there. But I just want something that is mine to share with one person. I guess I'm at the stage of my life, where that is what is most important to me.Again, best wishes on your new adventure.


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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 3:03:13 PM   
Amaros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

You could say that the evolutionary value of kink, is that you test your self control by pushing yourself to it's very limits (depending on the whom), by confronting your own savagery, and thereby developing internal self controls - the opposite of this is to deny your savage urges, to punish them, to repress them through external controls until the point that these controls break down, leaving large demographic swaths with little or no internal controls.

We are all the same species, we have different instincts.


Disagree that kinky means more evolved and less likely to be abusive, get drunk and mistreat spouse(s) and offspring, less likely to commit road rage, etc etc etc.

From what you read on the boards, kinky means less able to have social skills, job skills, relationship skills etc. Or so I judge by the constant quoted emails where subs are required to get rid of their offspring, sign over title of their homes, turn their offspring into sex slaves in training, etc. And all on the first email or chat sesssion.
Oh, I agree, we really aren't talking about individuals here so much as abstract generalities - i.e., it's healthier in principle, and research seems to bear that out, whether the correlation be consent, negotiation, or whatever, that is not as clear - but as far as your over exuberant cyber doms go, that's as Vanilla as it get's if you ask me - i.e., these are most likely henpecked husbands mortgaged to their eyebrows, chained up in tiny cubicles.

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RE: Define Vanilla, Go On ...... - 2/20/2009 6:53:52 PM   
piratecommander


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Respect Cowboy, you make a thoughtful response and I agree with you that it's not wise to judge,it is not my right to and neither shall I judge the use of a term, but I will challenge uses of it in the future to enhace my understanding.

I'm sure you will agree that to remain open minded is a positive and that ones privacy is a right, one cannot justify labelling people offhand and without the courage to offer an explanation. So very many people do use labels, ignorant of how exclusive the label may be.

No one is able to deny that we all "stereotype" others, I have much experience of being misjudged and try to see that as a learning experience.

Pirate

(in reply to MidMichCowboy)
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