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RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 12:40:54 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 4u2spoil

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I vote die-hard Republican for two reasons: guns and abortion.



I don't think I'll ever be able to wrap my head around how these two issues end up being championed at the same time. And debate on the second really should only be left to people with wombs.



Ditto - although I heard recently that defending our rights was a sign of obsession with the subject. When one reads people like truckin, it's no surprise people with wombs should want to be even more vigilant.

It's like this: women who defend abortion rights are obsessive and crazy. People who defend gun rights are righteous and reasonable.



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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 12:44:22 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		Spinner:
"But I am not asking about your commitment to your beliefs on the evils of abortion. I am asking if you feel that your responsibility to a fetus ends the moment it is born."

Given our current welfare-ridden society, yes, it does.
I would take our society in a different direction entirely.

Let me pose a hypothetical situation/question.
LBJ, as part of his "War on Poverty" passed not the package of welfare that created/expanded AFDC and the like but instead a set of laws that established effective job training and/or education for those of the poor who could and did put forth the real effort necessary to take advantage of the opportunity with the understanding that children born into permanent poverty or raised in real want would be declared neglected and adopted out to whoever wanted them and could afford to raise them.
Would this have raised or lowered the incidence of teenage pregnancy?

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 12:46:53 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 4u2spoil

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I vote die-hard Republican for two reasons: guns and abortion.



I don't think I'll ever be able to wrap my head around how these two issues end up being championed at the same time. And debate on the second really should only be left to people with wombs.




I'll be glad to consider seriously your last point if you tell me that you are intellectually honest enough to support:
1. Stripping the vote from people who collect rather than pay taxes and
2. Letting the "sperm donor" opt out of child support by telling the woman he impregnated that he wants her to get an abortion.
Until then, imo, it's completely hypocritical and unworthy of consideration.

< Message edited by truckinslave -- 3/14/2009 12:49:25 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 12:50:02 PM   
rulemylife


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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Given our current welfare-ridden society, yes, it does.
I would take our society in a different direction entirely.


If you mean the welfare we just provided to Citigroup, Wells Fargo, JP Morgan Chase, Gm, AIG, and numerous others , I couldn't agree more.

It's time these welfare bums learn how to stand on their own two feet.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 12:51:48 PM   
truckinslave


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Joined: 6/16/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

As far as my math skills are concerned, are you saying that the UN majority is composed of nations with freely electd governments with at least notional respect for western ideals?


No, and that is their entire purpose, to bring together nations that don't share the same ideals.



It was a lofty idea and a decent experiment. It failed. Time to move on (without the .org  )

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 12:54:34 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		rule:
It's time these welfare bums learn how to stand on their own two feet.

Airborne!

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 1:03:23 PM   
truckinslave


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Joined: 6/16/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

rule:

Please read post #61.
Conservatives see a lot of pure, ideologically driven hate. I consider my "Dims" and "President Husseins" to be of a different character and flavor, somewhat closer to humor and satire, certainly less offensive.


OK, I looked at #61.

Assuming you specified the right post, the only thing I saw was a coherent argument that , I guess, didn't agree with your perspective.

There was nothing hateful or even ideologically driven considering the poster is himself a self-described conservative.


We've so far had, especially by the standards of public message boards, pretty decent exchanges; so I am not going to say anything sarcastic. I'm just going to quotepart of  post #61 and ask you if you're sure you don't see anything hateful.
 
"There are few (if any) new faces, minority faces, or faces that look like anything other than old, white, racist, homophobic, mean spirited assholes within the party"

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 1:03:32 PM   
DedicatedDom40


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave
It is the coward that lacks the strength of their convictions, religious, "spritual", or otherwise; that strength manifestly should carry into the voting booth.



God gave man a mind, and free will. 

The strong are able to use both, and are forgiven even if they make mistakes.

The weak are the ones who dont use either, and fall back on the thoughts and ideas of others, including those who talk from the pulpit




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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 1:06:20 PM   
truckinslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DedicatedDom40

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave
It is the coward that lacks the strength of their convictions, religious, "spritual", or otherwise; that strength manifestly should carry into the voting booth.



God gave man a mind, and free will. 

The strong are able to use both, and are forgiven even if they make mistakes.

The weak are the ones who dont use either, and fall back on the thoughts and ideas of others, including those who talk from the pulpit






Are you saying that being pro-abortion in the USA in 2009 takes strength of character? Original thought?
I needed a laugh.

(in reply to DedicatedDom40)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 1:30:46 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		It takes strength to be pro-choice, yes. You may want to try it, sometimes, just for the challenge: it's hugely unpopular.

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 1:35:27 PM   
4u2spoil


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Joined: 5/1/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

It's very hard for me (and, I think, for the Party's leadership), to see how the GOP is anything but a fringe player without the support of the "Christian right" (or "moral majority" or "values voter" or whatever nom de guerre is popular this cycle). I will not vote for a candidate who is not anti-abortion. Period. I'm not alone, and there are millions for whom it is an issue of importance if not an absolute deal-breaker.


This is probably going to get me flamed, but why? Not why don't you agree with abortions, but why is it so important that you have a candidate who (I'm assuming) will push to make them illegal?

Particularly when it's an issue that you will never have to deal with. If you have a penis, there is only one time when you should have an opportunity to debate abortion, and that's if a woman you've impregnated is considering one. If your sperm is not half of the zygote or fetus, you really have absolutely no credibility or right. Even then, the person with the womb gets more credit.

Further, the majority of pro-choice supporters aren't pro-abortion, they just don't think the government should be able to tell you what you can or can't do with your body (hmm, almost sounds conservative). I also find it really peculiar that most of the fervent "you must have the baby!" crowd don't support social programs or having tax dollars go towards helping parents who can't support themselves financially. Welfare? "Bunch of leeches, end the program." Food stamps? "They go towards junk food, I don't want to support it."

If you want women to be birthing machines, regardless of cirucmstances, make sure you are rallying for programs to support the babies and families of all of those pregnancies carried to term. Health care regardless of insurance, quality education, food, affordable housing, available jobs, family planning to prevent unwanted pregnancy in the first place. And who's rallying for that? The evil, baby killing liberals. If you really want an anti-abortion candidate, you're probably better off checking the D box than voting for some blowhard who talks about it but doesn't back it up.

I'm honestly not trying to antagonize you personally, but I just read about a case in Brazil where a person who had an abortion was excommunicated from the Catholic church, along with her doctors and mother. She was pregnant as a result of molestation. I can't mention her age to stay within the terms of the forum, but here's a link If it were up to the church, she would have given birth. I don't EVER want to see the US turn into a church state where anyone is forced to do anything with their body that they don't want to. And this whole "moral majority" garbage sounds a veil and stoning away from post-Taliban Afghanistan.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 1:37:46 PM   
truckinslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It takes strength to be pro-choice, yes. You may want to try it, sometimes, just for the challenge: it's hugely unpopular.

Aren't you on here somewhere espousing, or agreeing with, the idea that the anti-abortion stance of the GOP is one of the reasons we lost/lose elections, or some such? Doesn't NOW repeatedly tell us how the vast majority of Americans are pro-abortion (rights)?

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 1:43:56 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

As far as my math skills are concerned, are you saying that the UN majority is composed of nations with freely electd governments with at least notional respect for western ideals?


No, and that is their entire purpose, to bring together nations that don't share the same ideals.



It was a lofty idea and a decent experiment. It failed. Time to move on (without the .org  )


And I assume you have a suggestion to replace it, or do you believe what the U.N. has accomplished in 60+ years has all been for nothing? 

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 1:49:27 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		No: the main reasons the GOP lost the election are because of the obvious talents of the Democratic candidate, especially when compared to the inadequate Republican candidates, and because of George Bush's failed policies and abysmal legacy.

Abortion should not come into play at all: it's a personal matter. Don't want one, don't have one. Oh, sorry... it's irrelevant to you, isn't it? You're a guy... so logically, you'd like to stop women from legally obtaining a crucial medical procedure from their doctors.

Try and think of it this way: I'm anti guns. I don't want one. But I'm trying hard to not stop others from owning them. See? Tolerance. It goes a long way. Time for the GOP to grow up and leave the religious right far behind them, in the pit of political mistakes of historical proportions. I would love to see an intelligent right of center political party in America: it would benefit everybody.

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 1:57:22 PM   
4u2spoil


Posts: 211
Joined: 5/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I'll be glad to consider seriously your last point if you tell me that you are intellectually honest enough to support:
1. Stripping the vote from people who collect rather than pay taxes and
2. Letting the "sperm donor" opt out of child support by telling the woman he impregnated that he wants her to get an abortion.
Until then, imo, it's completely hypocritical and unworthy of consideration.


I don't support turning the country into some type of fiefdom, but I would support people having a more direct say in how their tax dollars are directed. I supported the war in Afghanistan, but not the one in Iraq. I don't have any kids, but part of my taxes go towards schools. I have no real say about which ones my taxes support. I'm not sure how it would be managed (which is why it's not done, I'm sure), but I do think you should be able to not have your tax dollars support things you don't believe in. The military's paid off of taxes, and I don't think anyone would suggest they be stripped of the right to vote because they collect rather than pay.

I actually would support some type of  pre-natal agreement for sperm donors who don't want to be parents. If they make their desires known in advance, and take proper precautions I don't think they should be forced to be parents. I don't think it's rampant, but some women will lie and say they're on birth control, or mislead a man so that they can become pregnant. If that's the case, I don't think the man should be able to force a woman to have an abortion, but he should be able to opt-out of parenting responsibilities including financial support or visitation.


(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 2:00:41 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

We've so far had, especially by the standards of public message boards, pretty decent exchanges; so I am not going to say anything sarcastic. I'm just going to quotepart of  post #61 and ask you if you're sure you don't see anything hateful.
 
"There are few (if any) new faces, minority faces, or faces that look like anything other than old, white, racist, homophobic, mean spirited assholes within the party"


Again, this is a post from a self-described conservative Republican who doesn't like the direction his own party is going.

I can't see how criticism from within can be described as hateful.

Then again, if you have a problem with his comments, it is not up to me to defend them, go to the source.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 2:12:51 PM   
4u2spoil


Posts: 211
Joined: 5/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Abortion should not come into play at all: it's a personal matter. Don't want one, don't have one. Oh, sorry... it's irrelevant to you, isn't it? You're a guy... so logically, you'd like to stop women from legally obtaining a crucial medical procedure from their doctors.

Try and think of it this way: I'm anti guns. I don't want one. But I'm trying hard to not stop others from owning them. See? Tolerance. It goes a long way. Time for the GOP to grow up and leave the religious right far behind them, in the pit of political mistakes of historical proportions. I would love to see an intelligent right of center political party in America: it would benefit everybody.


That's probably my biggest gripe with the anti-choice movement (because life isn't just about being born). If I started campaigning against Viagra because "if God wanted you to have an erection, he'd give you one" I wonder if people would understand the flawed logic of men campaigning against abortion.

As far as guns, I really don't have so much of a problem with hunters and the like owning them. But there are far too many imbalanced and irresponsible people who get their hands on them that they really do need to be very tightly restricted. The person who goes to the range and has good aim doesn't scare me, but their nutty child who knows where the gun is and is upset at the teacher who gave him an F and the girl who turned him down for a date does. Nutty child could easily take a kitchen knife or some matches and do some damage, but it would be far less than what can happen when you involve a firearm and an unstable person.

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 2:47:18 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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Joined: 5/30/2006
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quote:

Given our current welfare-ridden society, yes, it does.
I would take our society in a different direction entirely.
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave


Let me just recap some of your postings and see if I understand your position from several of your posts:

1) A woman should have no right to an abortion. Every child deserves the right to be born
2) Once they are born, if they are ragged, starving, uneducated and generally disadvantaged to the point where their chances of bettering their situation is about the same as their winning the lottery, that's ok because there are too many people on welfare who don't deserve the help.
3) If someone falls into a situation where he or she requires help from the Government instead of paying federal income taxes, their most basic rights as a citizen should be stripped away and they should not be allowed to vote.

Now THAT'S a fantastic view of what this country could be.

The fact is, that the same people who cry loudest for the "murder of the unborn" are also the people who want to keep the pregnancy rates high, and make poverty a generational problem. Let's look at some of the other things that the average anti-choice voter supports:

1) Abstinence only programs for sex education. Far better to keep people ignorant than to teach them how to be responsible and safe.
2) A ban on allowing government assisted health care to provide birth control information or products. After all, if they can't afford birth control, they have a responsibility to be celibate or they can deal with the consequences of their act. A fine notion of having a baby brought into this world being viewed as a consequence.
3) The slashing of educational funding for public schools. After all, what good is an education? If you can't afford it, there are plenty of jobs to be had in car washes and handing out fliers on street corners.
5) The slashing of funding for publicly assisted health care. Prenatal care and a pediatrician is a privilege, not a right. For those who can't afford it...well they're just lazy and not trying to have a decent life.

Oh..and on a non legislative level, there is the important idea that any woman who gets pregnant out of wedlock be treated as a sinful whore who must confess or be roundly criticized  because the bible tells us that is sinful.

Reproductive choice involves responsibility. If you want to take that choice away from women, then step up and take responsibility for the innocent lives it will cause to be brought into this world because of your advocacy.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 4:48:09 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		Well, 4u2spoil, you will not be flamed by me.

I cannot ever have another child. Does that mean I have no right in a debate about school funding, or child-abuse laws? In 1969, when my brother and I were staring down the barrel of the draft, and women weren't, should women have been allowed to vote? For that matter, women are currently not allowed in direct combat, so if the draft is re-instituted, should wome's votes be devalued? Perhaps only those with HIV should be allowed to vote on AIDS research funding, or doctors (nurses?) on health care? The idea that men have no seat at the abortion debate is, I'm sure, seductive to women; but imo it's pretty specious.

Welfare generally, and AFDC specifically, are imo what caused the exlosion in teenage pregnancies etc that we see today. Had LBJ wanted to fight poverty he should have pushed legislation thru that would have taken children from long-term impoverished circumstances and adopted them out to families able to care for them. Heartless, heartless, heartless, I'm sure. Or not. It would essentially have  eliminated unwanted teenage pregnancies- not one in a thousand of which can possibly be accidental today (assuming room temperature IQ).

As far as the Brazilian situation- churches have rules. If you don't believe in the rules you should find another church. It amazes me when people don't understand that, especially when they want to deliberately misunderstand the history and doctrines of Islam. As I understand it as a Protestant with no particular interest in, or study of, Catholocism, the Bishop had no choice.

"Veil and stoning" etc- I hope that's just hyperbole. Moral equivalence just doesn't work for me.


(in reply to 4u2spoil)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: GOP becoming a cartoon - 3/14/2009 4:50:03 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		If you think the Un has done more good than harm, well, we all have opinions.
Why on earth would we replace it?

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 100
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