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RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/17/2009 12:35:00 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		This just in....

Senator Barack Obama received a $101,332 bonus from American International Group in the form of political contributions according to Opensecrets.org. The two biggest Congressional recipients of bonuses from the A.I.G. are Senators Chris Dodd and Senator Barack Obama.

Stay tuned - the next news bulletin will be that they "didn't know" and will be sending the money back! Perhaps they can personally walk it over to the Treasury. Can't give it to the Treasury Secretary Geithner; he may not realize he has to put it in the Treasury - like his taxes.


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/17/2009 12:38:00 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Welcome ien, ninth post and you are ready for CM politics ? Wow LOL.

At any rate, Merc said there is something he doesn't understand about actuaries in relation to the 500 year flood. I would suggest trying to think about it like hitting the lottery. Odds work both ways, and as unlikely as it may sound, there are more who have won the lottery more than once than normally would be expected. One reason may be is that they are using the winnings to bet ALOT, i.e. to buy alot of tickets to enhance their odds, but we all know the odds are the same and anyone with alot of money can do it. Also there were lottery cartels in existence that literally played evry number once the jackpot got big enough to render a net positive cash flow. However they could still lose because in most cases the prize is paramutual. Even assured of a win, they could still lose if too many people also played the winning number. However it is good gambling practice to move on to another table, machine or whatever after you hit big. This is where the 500 year flood comes in. Remember the odds work both ways, and you could hit the royal on a poker machine and move on and see someone else hit the royal on the very next hand. There is no reason to think otherwise, except for the 500 year flood method of thinking did not work once. Of course that doesn't mean to change course in your betting, but it does. But it doesn't. So don't feel bad, absolutely noone really understands the concept, even I could only visualize it, I can't quite grasp it. Odds are odds, but then they aren't. I know this was a quite feeble attempt to explain something I would probably term as "macro-probability", but these factors do exist. For example if the odds are 500:1 that doesn't mean that something can't hit twice in a row, but you don't reaonably expect it. If it does happen twice in a row, you would expect it not to happen for about another thousand shots, even though the prime odds are equal. However in this game there are too many variables that directly influence the game, which is therefore why I would not want to bet on this game. That is why I do not play the stock market. And it's also why I call it "playing" the stock market.

OK maybe that was a bit lame, but it was an attempt to explain something that is very hard to grasp, what I find harder to grasp it what kind of bonehead writes a contract for an executive that is guaranteed even if he runs the place into the ground ? Of course there can be a defense "Our actuaries said that this was worth it", or "our market analysis said that his was sound given the potential for return" much like an individual investor might consider the P/E ratio of a given stock under consideration. Again, too many variables which cannot be controlled, at least under the conditions that existed which led up to this mess. Also, another good aspect of the reason I do not "play" the stock market.

I have heard of schools in which students build an imaginary portfolio, and if they are studying ecomonics it is probably a good thing. However do they fail to teach about natural amortization of a loan and the idea of debt service and whether or not it is worth it ? I would say they do fail. On the surface, the normally amortized loan equity curve seems unfair, but it is not. If anyone needs an explanaition why just get me on the other side, as I'm sure most participating here already know.

In other words I think using credit to finance more credit is a bad move. Loaning out money is, and should have remained, a rich Man's endevor. However, how it was done seems to have subrogated all of the taxpayers to basically stake, or restake the losers in the game. That is the part to which I as well as many others object.

I don't want to say get the movie, but if someone could find the opening five minutes or so to the movie "Harlem Nights" it might serve to illustrate for the visually oriented. Guy loses at craps, gets pissed, Ray, the guy running the place said "Look you played and you lost, if you'd have won we would have paid you, now pass the dice or buy them off this MF" and then the other guy said "And I ain't selling punk". That's when the guy decided to rob the place, and sometimes I wonder just how far that scene is from what is going on now.

Actually if you have seen Harlem Nights and remember it, the guy got shot. Some are thinking that might be a good option in this debacle. Of course I would be willing to supply a few rounds of ammo for the job, what caliber do you need ? I might even be tempted to do the job, but to who ? If the company gives you a big check what are you going to do, not cash it ? I think the time would be better spent in going after these boneheads who wrote the ridiculous contracts. So who are they ?

T

(in reply to ienigma777)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/17/2009 12:46:22 PM   
snappykappy


Posts: 616
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Maybe while he's entertaining us tonight on Jay Leno, Jay can quote him and ask; "Mr. President, how to you justify not knowing that AIG was capable of issuing these contractual payouts while authorizing payment of $30 Billion in tax dollars to this company last week? Why isn't that just as outrageous?"

if leno did this one might not find any trace of leno anywhere in site cause leno is a side zippin wheenie

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/17/2009 12:50:42 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

This just in....

Senator Barack Obama received a $101,332 bonus from American International Group in the form of political contributions according to Opensecrets.org. The two biggest Congressional recipients of bonuses from the A.I.G. are Senators Chris Dodd and Senator Barack Obama.

Stay tuned - the next news bulletin will be that they "didn't know" and will be sending the money back! Perhaps they can personally walk it over to the Treasury. Can't give it to the Treasury Secretary Geithner; he may not realize he has to put it in the Treasury - like his taxes.






(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/17/2009 12:59:21 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		You really couldn't make this shit up...

One hand, Senator Barny Frank, is spending his time trying to figure out a way to legalize retro active taxes, that the other hand, Senator Dodd, made law as part of the last stimulus Bill passed last month. Of course, Senator Frank voted in favor of that provision and it was signed by the other AIG campaign bonus beneficiary; President Obama.

quote:

While the Senate was constructing the $787 billion stimulus last month, Dodd added an executive-compensation restriction to the bill. That amendment provides an “exception for contractually obligated bonuses agreed on before Feb. 11, 2009” -- which exempts the very AIG bonuses Dodd and others are now seeking to tax.

The amendment made it into the final version of the bill, and is law. Separately, Sen. Dodd was AIG’s largest single recipient of campaign donations during the 2008 election cycle with $103,100, according to opensecrets.org.

Source: FUCK THE TAXPAYERS! 


Anyone so inclined can see the entire list of non-AIG individuals receiving AIG Bonuses. Go ahead - try and guess who's at the top of the list and which party represents 76% of the top 25 recipients? More important; you may not need to wonder any longer why this bail-out was passed. Link:  FOLLOW THE MONEY

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/17/2009 1:06:10 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		If McCain had won the election, would the economic policies be that different... would AIG's bonuses not be in question... and would the nay sayers be as apoplectic? What's interesting is that for all the foaming at the mouth, nobody is coming up with alternative solutions. So much for bipartisanship and getting over stupid party divisions   .

_____________________________



(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/17/2009 1:41:25 PM   
Crush


Posts: 1031
Status: offline 		/begin sarcasm
Aw hell...time to move on folks...after all,

Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) accused Senate Republicans Monday of dragging their feet on the $800 billion stimulus package.
“Why quibble over $200 million?” he asked during an interview on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.”
( http://www.collarchat.com/m_2509612/mpage_4/tm.htm )

So what's $165 million?  Less than a quibble? 

One day maybe all those in D.C. will actually get on the same page ... oh crap, there I go dreaming again.....
/end sarcasm

Come the Revolution:  Politicians, Lawyers, & MBAs against the wall.....



< Message edited by Crush -- 3/17/2009 1:43:02 PM >

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/17/2009 2:46:17 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		You must not have read closely about the alternatives. The one I see is to allow them to go bankrupt and restructure. Then they would not have to pay out all of these bonuses.

Also, your point that it would not be that different if McCain was in there, is a point that I, Merc and a few others have been making. There is no large differences between the parties.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

If McCain had won the election, would the economic policies be that different... would AIG's bonuses not be in question... and would the nay sayers be as apoplectic? What's interesting is that for all the foaming at the mouth, nobody is coming up with alternative solutions. So much for bipartisanship and getting over stupid party divisions   .


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/17/2009 2:52:04 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
If McCain had won the election, would the economic policies be that different...
He didn't and they would be, by definition. Although I'd be the first to point out that the result may not have been much different; supported by the fact that after Dodd and Obama at #3 on the AIG Political Bonus list was John McCain at $59,499.
quote:

would AIG's bonuses not be in question...
They were in question originally by anyone who took the time to think through the details of the bail out; so I would expect they still would be. Obviously those just realizing it now, like the Administration, wish they thought through the details too.  
quote:

and would the nay sayers be as apoplectic?
Well, I don't know and would have to take a look at individual cases. Now Barney Frank is routinely a pretty "apoplectic" guy; just pull up an old sound bite of him defending his position that "every American should qualify for a homeowners loan through Fannie Mae!" However, I don't think President Obama would be any more than he is now. Of course that may represent that he was smart enough to realize the bonuses would be paid and just has to represent a subtle "apoplectic" persona for appearance sake.
quote:

What's interesting is that for all the foaming at the mouth, nobody is coming up with alternative solutions.
I'm sure your reference is directed to the politicians, and not those posting here where many times the first and best macro "alternative solution" still holds and, if taken, would have eliminated this issue - let the failures fail. However, if you are addressing Congress and Washington in general, you couldn't be more right. The reason is that there is no incentive for them to do so. While claiming "crisis" status and conveying a "we've got to do something"; you can get your personal 'pork' spending included in the Bill which just passed. Special interest pork spending is the only 'bi-partisan' effort conducted in Washington.  
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

This just in....

Senator Barack Obama received a $101,332 bonus from American International Group in the form of political contributions according to Opensecrets.org. The two biggest Congressional recipients of bonuses from the A.I.G. are Senators Chris Dodd and Senator Barack Obama.

Stay tuned - the next news bulletin will be that they "didn't know" and will be sending the money back! Perhaps they can personally walk it over to the Treasury. Can't give it to the Treasury Secretary Geithner; he may not realize he has to put it in the Treasury - like his taxes.



Silly me, I thought an example of "Your tax dollars at work" is exactly ON topic.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/17/2009 2:54:50 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You must not have read closely about the alternatives. The one I see is to allow them to go bankrupt and restructure. Then they would not have to pay out all of these bonuses.

Also, your point that it would not be that different if McCain was in there, is a point that I, Merc and a few others have been making. There is no large differences between the parties.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

If McCain had won the election, would the economic policies be that different... would AIG's bonuses not be in question... and would the nay sayers be as apoplectic? What's interesting is that for all the foaming at the mouth, nobody is coming up with alternative solutions. So much for bipartisanship and getting over stupid party divisions   .



It's not that the parties are that similar. It's that when you have a shitty situation, there aren't always that many different options. And right now, there's a shitty situation out there: shame people can't get over the partisan crap to brainstorm together and solve it. All I hear from the Republicans and other assorted libertarians is whine, piss and moan.

_____________________________



(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/17/2009 7:03:12 PM   
Crush


Posts: 1031
Status: offline 		 All I hear from the Republicans and other assorted libertarians is whine, piss and moan.

But that's what the Democrats did the past 8 years and look where it got them!  They are now "In Charge."   Republicans are now following the Democrats' playbook, that's all.

I'm not whining or moaning, but I'm pissed. 


_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/17/2009 7:32:43 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		They are not that similar? Maybe in sound bytes but in substance they are more alike than not. As far as only hearing whine, piss and moan it is because that is all you are listening for. Defecit spending got us into the mess we are in, so it is supposed to get us out of it? Bullshit. I do hope Obama turns it around, I really do. I mean I have kids and it is their future and my grand children's future we are talking about here. I could care less if for the rest of eternity I had to here" I told you so" from anyone and everyone, but I am not going to bet on it occuring.

The biggest reason why is in your post "shame people can't get over the partisan crap to brainstorm together and solve it. " and you are just as guilty of it as anyone. All the cheerleaders on both sides of the aisle, everywhere, just contribute to the problem by creating an obfuscation of seemingly important issues.

If Obama and/or the Dems do not turn it around, then every incumbent needs to be voted out of every office from local to federal. We the people get the government that we are willing to accept.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
It's not that the parties are that similar. It's that when you have a shitty situation, there aren't always that many different options. And right now, there's a shitty situation out there: shame people can't get over the partisan crap to brainstorm together and solve it. All I hear from the Republicans and other assorted libertarians is whine, piss and moan.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/17/2009 7:38:57 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Maybe the title of this thread should be changed to "Your tax dollars at play", or at least "in play". That's what it is.

Even if you support a limited bailout plam. run the best way possible including the ousting of current execs and such, and having the money go directly to the problem rather than buying other distressed companies, no matter what it is still not a legitimate function of government.

Now we have 536 people who take our money at will, giving it to people who are proven to be either thieves or oafs, but it's not the money they took from us. No they are going to take more.

If I came to your house canvassing for your vote in my stained dockers and a stained and maybe torn Tshirt, wearing my nine dollar tennis shoes, would you vote for me instead of the guy who shows up in a suit that costs more than I intend to pay for my next car ?

I suggest you consider that more carefully than you may have in the past. That is if you want a future. You want to see me support a politician ? Show me a President who puts those pens in his pocket with the bailout bill in front of him and says "I ain't signing that, it does nothing for the people except to wreck our currency, it is like that joke about trying to make the shallow end of the pool deeper by shoveling water. It is useless and expensive and I say to let the chips fall where they may, and let it happen now, while you got someone with a working brain in the big chair".

I can be very powerful in tearing someone down, but trust me, I can be just as powerful in supporting someone. I didn't go that far supporting Obama for the simple reason that he was the lesser of two evils. Everything else is just going to happen no matter who holds the office, all I expect is two things - get out of Iraq and get out of Gitmo. As for the rest, he simply can't do much. Well he could, but at great personal risk.

I believe I have already stated what I would do as President, and belive me it would be change. And there would be no public appearances, lest my corpse ends up next to that of JFK. Every agency in the world would be after me. I would need food tasters like despots all over the world, and that is for doing good !

T

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/18/2009 12:53:28 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

It stinks with a capital PEWWWWW
I read that they were contractually required to pay these bonus's, what???? they are in the hole for how many billions but they deserve these bonus's  and legally? it reeeeeeeks

Kinkroids, we are witness to the incentives of capitalism...get all I can, however I can, while I can. It's called greed and a culture of greed breeds a sense of entitlement. I heard 11 recipients are not even working at AIG anymore.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/18/2009 7:07:59 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

This just in....

Senator Barack Obama received a $101,332 bonus from American International Group in the form of political contributions according to Opensecrets.org. The two biggest Congressional recipients of bonuses from the A.I.G. are Senators Chris Dodd and Senator Barack Obama.

Stay tuned - the next news bulletin will be that they "didn't know" and will be sending the money back! Perhaps they can personally walk it over to the Treasury. Can't give it to the Treasury Secretary Geithner; he may not realize he has to put it in the Treasury - like his taxes.






Why is that off topic?  It concerns AIG...of course, it also concerns AIG and the "obamassiah" along with two other liberal...excuse me, progressive...pols in a not-so-sacrificing-all-for-the-people mode.  Perhaps that is why Merc's post is off-topic?

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/18/2009 8:49:03 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

This just in....

Senator Barack Obama received a $101,332 bonus from American International Group in the form of political contributions according to Opensecrets.org. The two biggest Congressional recipients of bonuses from the A.I.G. are Senators Chris Dodd and Senator Barack Obama.

Stay tuned - the next news bulletin will be that they "didn't know" and will be sending the money back! Perhaps they can personally walk it over to the Treasury. Can't give it to the Treasury Secretary Geithner; he may not realize he has to put it in the Treasury - like his taxes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Silly me, I thought an example of "Your tax dollars at work" is exactly ON topic.


Imagine that!

Politicians receiving contributions from large corporations. 

Who knew things like this happened?

Now, if you tell me these contributions came after AIG received taxpayer money, then that's pertinent, otherwise not so much.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/18/2009 8:53:57 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/18/2009 9:34:35 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Politicians receiving contributions from large corporations. 

Who knew things like this happened?

Now, if you tell me these contributions came after AIG received taxpayer money, then that's pertinent, otherwise not so much.

Well hell - we can't expect our President to actually read what he is signing?

Yes, I guess you have to believe that it is all coincidental.

Senator Dodd's payoff had nothing to do with him including language in the Stimulus Bill to exclude and contain specific word 'Bonus' be sacrosanct from scrutiny, allowing these Bonuses to be paid had nothing to do with the money he received.

The AIG issue was also a BIG surprise when the Bush I program was funded prior to the election. I didn't see the endorsement on the back of President Obama's bonus but I am wondering how, having such a reputation of intelligence and attention to details during the campaign, he lost those attributes so soon as he was elected? You would think that he had more than the aforementioned "three seconds" and looked at Bush Stimulus II before signing it, which insured, not only that these Bonuses would be funded, but because of Senator Dodd's action, could not be excluded. I guess this is also the fault of the prior Administration? 

Nobody has as of yet answered the question; was/is President Obama of the same level of intelligence as his predecessor, or is he just lying?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 3/18/2009 9:35:53 AM >

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/18/2009 10:25:53 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline 		I'm not even sure what you are trying to say here.

Are you suggesting that the campaign donations were some sort of pay-off for AIG's bailout?

And that Obama and Dodd were aware of the bonus contracts and looked the other way because of the donations to their campaigns?

That's pretty much of a stretch, don't you think?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/18/2009 11:43:43 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline 		AIG CEO says employees starting to return bonuses (AP)

WASHINGTON – The chairman of AIG has told Congress he's asked executives to give back their bonuses.

The chief executive officer of the failed insurance conglomerate acknowledged Wednesday that the company's multimillion-dollar bonuses were "distasteful" to many and had provoked a firestorm of wrath. "I share that anger," Edward Liddy, chairman and CEO of the American International Group Inc., said in testimony prepared for Congress.........

Liddy, in his written remarks, said, "Mistakes were made at AIG on a scale few could have every imagined possible."

But, he also said that the roughly $165 million in bonuses paid out over the weekend should be honored as a legal commitment of the United States government, which now owns 80 percent of the battered insurer.

"When you owe someone money, you pay that money back," Liddy maintained. "We at AIG want to believe that we are all in this together," said the man named six months ago to take over the company as part of the government rescue. Some $170 billion in tax money has now been pledged to AIG.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hear that folks, we are all in this together.

You, me, Edward Liddy, and all the people at AIG that raked in $165 million in bonuses that we all helped supply.

It's nice to feel part of something, isn't it?

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/19/2009 7:54:30 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I'm not even sure what you are trying to say here.

Are you suggesting that the campaign donations were some sort of pay-off for AIG's bailout?

And that Obama and Dodd were aware of the bonus contracts and looked the other way because of the donations to their campaigns?

That's pretty much of a stretch, don't you think?

Actually...not according to the breaking news reports this morning. 

Gee, imagine...liberal politicials whose sole motivation for their actions was NOT the good of "the masses".


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 80
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