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RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/19/2009 1:55:42 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
For instance, seen anyone tackle this question yet?

Since President Obama claims not to have know this Bonus provision was contained in the stimulus package he signed; was/is President Obama of the same level of intelligence as his predecessor, or is he just lying?

Merc,

You know by now that if you ask a question and say that no one is answering, I'm going to answer. And the answer is this: This whole damned bonus mess is a huge tempest in a teapot. Out of 170,000,000,000 given to AIG, the bonuses in question total up to $165,000,000. In short, 1% of the money that was given. When you add the fact that he was dealing with a seven hundred billion stimulus package, this stuff was samll change.

If anything, his fault occurred in underestimating the greed of the parties involved and the outrage in the public sector who has siezed upon this as a tangable symbol of all that has gone wrong over the last year. In short, someone needs to get the shit kicked out of them and the AIG folks just stepped forward with a great big kick me sign.

So no, I do not think he was lying. And I think you have to accept that he's much more intelligent than Bush the Younger could ever be. I just think he had bigger things on his mind and that this slipped through the cracks. Of course, I know that this will be laughed at by conspiracy theorists on sides.

However....one thing I will say. People should take heart if he DID give AIG preferential treatment in return for big cash contributions. What better proof is there that he is as much of a capitalist as any politician.

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RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/19/2009 2:02:46 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shannie

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Who really gives a shit about these bonuses?

Again:.....1 billion dollars is equal to 1,000 million dollars...

It is the equivalent of giving someone $1,700.00 and getting your undies in a twist over how $1.65 was spent.

Let's keep the focus on the 175 billion dollars...Where it belongs.

You're absolutely right about this. All this fake outrage, and the prompt action by our representatives! (who orchestrated the bonuses in the first place) is just to keep our attention off the 175 billion. It's like arguing, as the pirates carry off every single thing of value, about how they distribute it amongst themselves.

Fake outrage huh?

Trust me, my outrage is not fake.

After all, it is only $165 million, given as a reward to people who ran their own company into the ground.

But hey, no worries, it really is just such a small amount.

Incidentally, did you read the part of the story that said the bonuses averaged $112,000 each, which some people don't even make in a full year's work, or two. For some even three or four.

And considering we now own 80% of AIG, that is your money paying those bonuses.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/19/2009 2:03:55 PM >

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RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/19/2009 2:12:39 PM

ienigma777

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Wow you guys,.... Nothing to add; but this one sidebar; Chrysler recently threathened to shut down if it did not receive another 5 Billion, on top of what they already received. Okay...Chrysler was owned by a German company, about the middle of 2007 was bought by an America company. However the German company still retains 21% of Chrysler. The American Company which bought the 79% (or thereabouts) is a Management investment company, Ceribus (spelling??); which generates 300 Billion per year; or is worth 300 Billion.
Why would they petition for another 5 Billion to have Chrysler stay afloat?
Their holdings are at 300 Billion

You guys have it nailed, ..... may I suggest you write your congressmen and the president to enlighten them.

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RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/19/2009 2:13:14 PM

Lorr47

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Joined: 3/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

The democratic house just passed a taxation of the AIG type bonuses. 87 republicans opposed it with Boehner criticizing every one democratic. Which way do republicans want it. They scream about the bonuses but scream about this bill although probably symbolic. They scream about it but accuse Biden of heresy when he wants to throw these clowns in jail and get the money back. And do not say it is not legal. What is legal depends on who says it is legal.

Keeping up the distraction politics and keeping the discussion focused on this non-issue is better than having citizens realize that the entire show we've been seeing is nothing but a charade.

Why stop with these executive bonuses? Why not vote on a 90% tax rate for all the other people that got 'paid back' by the Administration and Congress? Dems & Reps if its necessary for that to be said. ALL of the bail out money spent on rewarding the failure of AIG went out to pay someone who did something just as stupid as these executive bonuses. The beneficiaries are the very source of the under collateralized mortgage loans. They are the same people who made Billions by marketing 'Zero DP', 'No Credit Check', and 'qualified' non-qualifying borrowers. AIG 'insured' their risk on the behest of Senator Frank and under the regulatory scrutiny of Senator Dodd. These 'executives' are nothing more than 'salesmen' selling a product. The bonus was their commission. You don't get to selectively payout the claims while ignoring the salesmen who sold the policy which generated the claim. At least you didn't in a era where Civil Contract Law was not being created on the fly. Great precedent, again reducing the confidence in the private sector for this Administration's policies. Creating worry that any investment may be subject to the next whim of Congress and public opinion. The method to prevent this was in place - let them fail. The 'crisis' mentality of "we've GOT to do SOMETHING!" generated this result.

Again, to those that detest the idea of Corporate Welfare, why is this most detestable form of rewarding failure welfare being accepted as part of an overall solution to the economic conditions that exist? Better yet - why are you supporting the people who are paying it out? As much as there is no distinction between the actions of political parties, the distinction between the party supporters is clear. If Corporate Welfare is coming from a Democratic source - it MUST be supported and good. Change the party label on the administration and change the majority label represented by Congress and would there be this same level of universal support and rationalization from the same sources? The entire 'bail-out' including AIG is nothing but corporate welfare without any plan being provided for individual or private sector job growth. But because of the source - it's going to work if only given time. WOW!

What can I say? Obviously it works for most.

What a GREAT use of time - voting on taxing bonuses that only a few weeks they approved, specifically adding language to exempt any special tax consideration. And the crowd goes wild...

What next - voting yesterday's weather? Who knows, maybe this will start a trend. Maybe all those who 'voted' for the wrong team in their 'March Madness' brackets can get their money back by a majority voting that the winner has to use 90% of their winnings to throw a party for all the participants.

You do not appreciate my goal. I believe that we should go back to 2000. Find out what the net worth of the top five or ten percent was at that time. Then, find out what their net worth was in June, 2008. Then, levee a 90%+ tax on any increase. But of course Obama doesn't apparently agree. However, some day. Remember who comprises the overwhelming number of the population and who makes up the military.

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Post #: 104

RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/19/2009 2:17:01 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

Out of 170,000,000,000 given to AIG, the bonuses in question total up to $165,000,000. In short, 1% of the money that was given. When you add the fact that he was dealing with a seven hundred billion stimulus package, this stuff was samll change.

Why not take the perspective that 100% of the $170 Billion was a bonus payout of someone? You don't think the beneficiaries of that $170 Billion payoff derived any 'bonus' payouts when their companies were made whole on the bad loans they made through this payout? Do you need/want names? They were more contributory to the collapse of the RE market as perpetrators than AIG as the insurer. Remember AIG had the underwriting rules changed on them on the fly by Senator Franks, Congress, and approved by then President Bush. I know first hand that any attempt to amend the policy or even raise the price was not allowed to get past the halls of any Congressman's office let alone get inside it to be discussed.

quote:

So no, I do not think he was lying.

Then he signed it without knowing about the Bonus provision contained; which would point to Senator Dodd doing so without any Administration approval? So he's not lying, just out of touch with his party's leaders when it comes to this important issue? I see the Senator already pointing at the Administration indicating it was not only known, but directed by the Administration if not President Obama specifically. I guess the question needs expanding; is the President lying or Senator Dodd?

quote:

And I think you have to accept that he's much more intelligent than Bush the Younger could ever be.

Why - because you say so? What do you point to thus far from this Administration to substantiate that conclusion? However, those comments may have you believing that I think both are equally stupid. I'm on record that I am quite sure of the exact opposite. I think they are BOTH intelligent and this was planned. The ignorant facade and the "I didn't know" reactions are necessary to avoid disclosing just how throughly the planning and details extended.

quote:

I just think he had bigger things on his mind and that this slipped through the cracks. Of course, I know that this will be laughed at by conspiracy theorists on sides.

A man as intelligent as Obama who said when it was considered that this bail out was the most critical and essential piece of legislation to get our economy back on track "had bigger things on this mind"? You believe that or are you required to believe that because the other option would make "conspiracy theorists", simply theorists?

However-I guess neither and both, as I perceive your response to the question is an answer. You deserve credit for the attempt not taken by any other.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 3/19/2009 2:25:58 PM >

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RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/19/2009 2:19:41 PM

angelinchains69

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While I agree with Spinner of Tales' response in most part regarding AIG (99% of it actually). Have you actually looked to where the bailout money went? Some of went to Lehman Bros, Goldman-Sachs, and some of it to overseas banks. AIG also holds the pension money for "our" politicians. I guess I am tired of "business as usual" in Washington.

In regards to getting the money back. It is illegal, per a former NYS Supreme Court Justice, for Washington to ask for the money back, they signed it into law, which means it is a binding contract. Ask yourself this what would happen if you yourself hired a contractor to do some work around your home, then Washington came in and told you the contract was "null & void"? What would you think???

Maybe it is time that "We the People" remind Washington they work for us, not the other way around. Maybe it is time "We the People" begin to use the 9 Values & 12 Principals that our forefathers used when creating this wonderful country of ours.

Okay I will step off my soapbox now, and return to my knees at my Master's side. Have a wonderful day everyone.

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RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/19/2009 7:51:17 PM

Crush

Posts: 1031
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelinchains69

While I agree with Spinner of Tales' response in most part regarding AIG (99% of it actually). Have you actually looked to where the bailout money went? Some of went to Lehman Bros, Goldman-Sachs, and some of it to overseas banks. AIG also holds the pension money for "our" politicians. I guess I am tired of "business as usual" in Washington.

In regards to getting the money back. It is illegal, per a former NYS Supreme Court Justice, for Washington to ask for the money back, they signed it into law, which means it is a binding contract. Ask yourself this what would happen if you yourself hired a contractor to do some work around your home, then Washington came in and told you the contract was "null & void"? What would you think???

Maybe it is time that "We the People" remind Washington they work for us, not the other way around. Maybe it is time "We the People" begin to use the 9 Values & 12 Principals that our forefathers used when creating this wonderful country of ours.

Okay I will step off my soapbox now, and return to my knees at my Master's side. Have a wonderful day everyone.

Wow, some good fact in there, angel....didn't know about the pension money...makes it even more heinous...

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

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RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/19/2009 9:19:30 PM

Crush

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Just found out that AIG did NOT insure the congresscritters pensions: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/mar/18/chain-email/aig-does-not-insure-pensions-congress/

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

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RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/20/2009 7:12:34 AM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

While I haven't seen the news today, were these "breaking news reports" on Fox by any chance?

It always tickles me to see the way that FOX is disparaged by the same people who so staunchly defend ABC, CBS, NBC as being "neutral" while the Pugh Report and the Washington Post---both liberal organizations---admit that they have not seen such cheerleading by the media for a political candidate since Kennedy in the 60s.

Oh come on!

Do you remember seeing an endless stream of blatant Bush-bashing on those networks during his Presidency?

Turn on Fox any time of the day or night and you are treated to a never-ending barrage of How Obama is a Socialist and why the stimulus package will fail.

So it's not surprising to hear the same things being parroted here by those who rely on Fox as their primary news source.

Who stated that I rely on FOX as my primary news source? You appear to be one of those who loves to take diversionary routes rather than ever answer the question that is asked, especially when it concerns anything that might make your guy or your side appear bad.

An "endless stream"? Try using a little less hyperbole. On those shows that are commentary in nature, the commentary is supportive of conservative policies. Just as Meet the Press, Face the Nation, 20-20, Dateline, and so on and so forth are supportive of liberal policies. The last 8 years? Hell, you just have to look at the last 3 months...they can't stop themselves. Harry Smith on CBS Morning Show damn near orgasming over the last of the 44 Obama portraits, Chris Matthews on MSNBC deriding the idea that Bush enjoys reading by asking where is the evidence of knowledge gleaned from reading, and on and on.

When it comes to news...you know, that segment where the reporters are supposed to be non-biased?...show me the Fox reporter who has presented phony documents---knowing they were phony (Dan Rather, anyone)---because of his hatred for Obama.

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RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/20/2009 7:58:37 AM

UncleNasty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

I don't know who posted it, but someone here did when they mentioned someone from France saying that, what was wrong with America was that the government wasn't afraid of the people.

It is so friggin true.

Aren't we supposed to be the government?

I heard that quote in the Michael Moore film "Sicko." I don't agree with Moore across the board, and feel he stops well short of asking the deeper questions and pointing out some deeper truths, but he is still one of the few mainstream film makers that even tackles the harder and larger issues.

As for us "being" the government... I beleive that was the intention. Two centuries later it is far from the reality.

Uncle Nasty

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RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/20/2009 8:28:10 AM

UncleNasty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shannie

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Who really gives a shit about these bonuses?

Again:.....1 billion dollars is equal to 1,000 million dollars...

It is the equivalent of giving someone $1,700.00 and getting your undies in a twist over how $1.65 was spent.

Let's keep the focus on the 175 billion dollars...Where it belongs.

You're absolutely right about this. All this fake outrage, and the prompt action by our representatives! (who orchestrated the bonuses in the first place) is just to keep our attention off the 175 billion. It's like arguing, as the pirates carry off every single thing of value, about how they distribute it amongst themselves.

My belief at this point is that AIG and Bernie Madoff are going to be the sacrificial lambs. Little else in terms of investigation and prosecution will happen.

My understanding is that total monies involved in all of the combined "cures" for the economic "disease" we're suffering under is a bit over 9 trillion dollars. Yes, trillion.

Uncle Nasty

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RE: Your tax dollars at work - 3/20/2009 8:43:02 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ienigma777

Wow you guys,.... Nothing to add; but this one sidebar; Chrysler recently threathened to shut down if it did not receive another 5 Billion, on top of what they already received. Okay...Chrysler was owned by a German company, about the middle of 2007 was bought by an America company. However the German company still retains 21% of Chrysler. The American Company which bought the 79% (or thereabouts) is a Management investment company, Ceribus (spelling??); which generates 300 Billion per year; or is worth 300 Billion.
Why would they petition for another 5 Billion to have Chrysler stay afloat?
Their holdings are at 300 Billion

Because Cerberus took a huge hit from the sub-prime crisis.

They have a majority stake in GMAC which is one of the biggest mortgage lenders in the country.

GMAC'S SUBPRIME STAKE MAY HURT CERBERUS - New York Post
"The subprime mortgage market collapse just might give private-equity titan Cerberus a headache for the forseeable future.

As the headlines mount about woes in the subprime sector, Park Avenue-based Cerberus' 51 percent stake in GMAC - the owner of a massive subprime mortgage portfolio - is looking increasingly problematic.

With its GMAC stake, Cerberus also got one of the largest subprime players: a lender named ResCap Capital."

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/20/2009 8:51:33 AM >

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