RE: Gaza - the facts emerge

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piratecommander -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 10:59:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales: If the Palestinians laid down their weapons, the next day there would be no more violence. If the Israelis laid down their weapons, the next day there would be no more Israel. (Typo's fixed) I admired the rest of your post but feel the above quote may be only 50% accurate. Of course,in these times,anything is possible,even a unilateral laying down of arms but given my perception of the likelihood of that in the near future,the speculation will,I believe,have to continue (hopefully in a cordial manner between us) for at least a while longer. Pirate Pirate

housesub4you -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 11:12:53 AM)
Well, if you read the koran, it says as long as you are lying to help the world come under Muslum law they you are forgiven, so first you need to understand how deep this runs. When Yasr Arafat (?) signed the peace treaty in his own language he qouted the Koran about how lying is OK as long as it pushes your beliefs forward, then several years later he broke all his promises So, there is a religion who believe everyone who does not believe should die, The Musum say this is not true, however if you look at current data, christains living in Pal, have gone from 45% to 12% because they kill they, everywhere Muslums say they will live in peace with others, the other populations have been lowered to below 10% because of death threats or actually killing. NPR just had a report on this very subject, When your religion tells you it is ok to lie to get ahead, and you will go to where ever they believe they are going, it's a hard battle to fight

Politesub53 -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 11:39:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadAxeman Read my links then. They include confessions by Israeli soldiers reported in Israeli newspapers. Will you stop making life easy for them and pretend there are no links on this thread [;)]

FullCircle -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 11:55:24 AM)
Idocy like this doesn't help the cause of the IDF. The fact of the matter is people enlist for all kinds of reasons and psychological testing doesn't catch all the sickos

KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 1:44:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: housesub4you Well, if you read the koran, it says as long as you are lying to help the world come under Muslum law they you are forgiven, so first you need to understand how deep this runs. When Yasr Arafat (?) signed the peace treaty in his own language he qouted the Koran about how lying is OK as long as it pushes your beliefs forward, then several years later he broke all his promises So, there is a religion who believe everyone who does not believe should die, The Musum say this is not true, however if you look at current data, christains living in Pal, have gone from 45% to 12% because they kill they, everywhere Muslums say they will live in peace with others, the other populations have been lowered to below 10% because of death threats or actually killing. NPR just had a report on this very subject, When your religion tells you it is ok to lie to get ahead, and you will go to where ever they believe they are going, it's a hard battle to fight Anti-Muslim rhetoric really has no place here. I've been called anti-semetic for a lot less than this.

KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 1:47:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Our troops in Iraq have civilian translators leadingthe way in most situations where gunfire is not being actively exchanged. I'm positive the IDF employs translators for that purpose and the obvious place for the translators is up front where he can speak to people as their lives are entered by men with guns. You can continue denying this simple fact but it just proves your complete lack of knowledge on the actual situation. It is by no means a fact. It is an assumption on your part that the man in the video was a translator. Has the IDF even made that claim? Not that I've seen. It's something you've just assumed.

piratecommander -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 2:15:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: housesub4you Well, if you read the koran, it says as long as you are lying to help the world come under Muslum law they you are forgiven, so first you need to understand how deep this runs. When Yasr Arafat (?) signed the peace treaty in his own language he qouted the Koran about how lying is OK as long as it pushes your beliefs forward, then several years later he broke all his promises So, there is a religion who believe everyone who does not believe should die, The Musum say this is not true, however if you look at current data, christains living in Pal, have gone from 45% to 12% because they kill they, everywhere Muslums say they will live in peace with others, the other populations have been lowered to below 10% because of death threats or actually killing. NPR just had a report on this very subject, When your religion tells you it is ok to lie to get ahead, and you will go to where ever they believe they are going, it's a hard battle to fight And your point about war crimes perpetrated by Israeli military personnel in Gaza is? ... ... ... Or has the thread topic changed to something religion related? ... ... ... Pirate

kdsub -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 3:35:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: MadAxeman Read my links then. They include confessions by Israeli soldiers reported in Israeli newspapers. Will you stop making life easy for them and pretend there are no links on this thread [;)] Do you really think there was ever a war fought without atrocities... on both sides? Who is to say these incidents were not pursued by individuals rather than general orders? Is it reasonable to think the freedom of media in Israel is why we are hearing these stories…Why ignore the obvious atrocities of Hamas? Why not just condemn both sides for a useless war rather than be selective in criticism? Butch

UBsincere -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 3:41:27 PM)
Piratecommander said: Maybe I'll give up on trying to find out what the boy wins ... the lack of response speaks volumes. Ponders ... ... ... Perhaps he was tied there to save him from falling off and "clearly" it wouldn't do not to have a "translator" handy on ones jeep. (see post # : 51 of this thread, thanks DK ) now I might see the soldiers who tied him there in so much more of a considerate light, looking after their "volunteer" and keeping the child out of harms way.. Or "perhaps" not ... ... ... Maybe, just maybe the plan was to have "him" take the first bullet fired from his fellow citizens AK47's. Or, maybe that fact stopped someone from taking the shot in the first place? Do you think that if the terroist folks being "put upon" in Gaza had access to a small nuclear weapon and a lot longer range rocket, do you think they would use it? Would you be willing to "bet your life" on it. I wouldn't bet my family on it? Gee, how many "civilians" died in the 9/11 plane crashes? What did the rules of engagement say about that, and all the United Nations retoric do to keep them "safe". OK, it's time for all to reveal their "sponsers"... Was this all in fact a "paid political announcement?" Naa, that doesn't happen in the media. Oh, and how about Iraq using poison gas on the minority Kurds, I guess it's allright if you kill your fellow tribeman "brother". Right Sadam? Sleep tight!

RealityLicks -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 3:44:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks Just a note about whether the allegations of the parents who lost children are to be believed or not: there is always the possibility that something like this could be faked but those people were shedding real tears, there was real evidence that hunter-killer UAV's were used and they do have the capability to discern an unarmed schoolgirl from a Hamas irregular. I just want to say that I don't recall ever seeing Israeli parents, grieving after a Palestinian attack being viewed coldly and dispassionately as possible fakes. If you have ever lost a member of your immediate family, let alone a child, you might try to imagine how you would react if someone asked you to spend the rest of your life lying about how they died. Hundreds of children were killed. Their deaths could not possibly all be accidents. This is a war crime and if Israel is not a terrorist state, someone must be held accountable. I wouldn't view them as possible fakes if previous events hadn't indicated it was more than a possibility. Remember the man and his son shown around the world huddling at a checkpoint caught between the IDF and palestinian gunmen? Remember the heartbreaking video of him shielding his son? Remember little Mohammed Al-Dura? Did you know it appears it was basically made up to make the IDF look bad? Did you know the news agency that reported the incident lost a court case over an expert saying the entire incident was staged with teh knowledge of the cameraman? Your statement carries an air of certainty which I don't think you can stand up. The truth of the al-Durrah case, while disputed by some, has definitely not been proved a hoax. In fact, the IDF apologised fairly swiftly for shooting the boy. Later, there were attempts to discredit the account given. We can only guess at the reach of Mossad's propaganda arm and there is obviously a strong incentive for them to pull out all the stops here. I'm hesitant about wikipedia at the best of times but this entry at least gives an indication of how this narrative has progressed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Durrah But let's remember we are still talking about the operation in January. So what's more pertinent here is your underlying assumption: that if one Palestinian lied once, not one of them can ever be considered truthful. And in the unlikely event the al-Durrah case was proven to be faked, you have given no real reason why the hundreds of infanticides in Gaza last January should also be considered fake. It speaks volumes that you have to justify Operation Cast Lead by talking about the 60s, the 70s etc. What murderer ever used such a defence in court? Are the sins of the father to be visited on the son?

KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 4:42:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Do you really think there was ever a war fought without atrocities... on both sides? Who is to say these incidents were not pursued by individuals rather than general orders? Is it reasonable to think the freedom of media in Israel is why we are hearing these stories…Why ignore the obvious atrocities of Hamas? Why not just condemn both sides for a useless war rather than be selective in criticism? Butch Freedom of media? Israel were the ones to block the media from entering Gaza.

Politesub53 -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 5:20:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Why not just condemn both sides for a useless war rather than be selective in criticism? Butch Butch, Firstly I have condemed Hamas many times on other threads and said attrocities on both sides are wrong. The difference between us here, is I am sticking to the topic at hand. That would be the reports coming out of Gaza and Israel about the IDF. Ken asked for proof, despite mad Axemen posting the links and I have also mentioned the reports in the Israeli press. Despite that many of you simply refuse to even consider the matter and resort to deflection tactics. Even 9/11 has been used and what that has to do with Gaza is beyond me.

kdsub -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 8:44:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Do you really think there was ever a war fought without atrocities... on both sides? Who is to say these incidents were not pursued by individuals rather than general orders? Is it reasonable to think the freedom of media in Israel is why we are hearing these stories…Why ignore the obvious atrocities of Hamas? Why not just condemn both sides for a useless war rather than be selective in criticism? Butch Freedom of media? Israel were the ones to block the media from entering Gaza. All armies do the same... the UK and the US block reporters in combat zones. The news could not get out without a free Israeli media.

kdsub -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 8:57:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Why not just condemn both sides for a useless war rather than be selective in criticism? Butch Butch, Firstly I have condemed Hamas many times on other threads and said attrocities on both sides are wrong. The difference between us here, is I am sticking to the topic at hand. That would be the reports coming out of Gaza and Israel about the IDF. Ken asked for proof, despite mad Axemen posting the links and I have also mentioned the reports in the Israeli press. Despite that many of you simply refuse to even consider the matter and resort to deflection tactics. Even 9/11 has been used and what that has to do with Gaza is beyond me. I never used 9/11...and I don't deny atrocities. So please don't include "you" meaning me. I may be mixing posts but I thought it was not the doubt of the reports existence... just their context. Some seem to be condemning all Israelis for the actions of a few. My contention is all wars have these atrocities and the actions of a few soldiers should not condemn the thousands that fought. In the same way My Lai should not condemn all American soldiers who fought in Vietnam. In a free society with a free media the truth will come out... Tell me have you EVER seen an Al Jazeera report on the atrocities of Hamas? Or do you believe they did not commit any? This is a one sided argument with only evidence on one side ignoring the other. Butch

DomKen -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 9:00:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks Just a note about whether the allegations of the parents who lost children are to be believed or not: there is always the possibility that something like this could be faked but those people were shedding real tears, there was real evidence that hunter-killer UAV's were used and they do have the capability to discern an unarmed schoolgirl from a Hamas irregular. I just want to say that I don't recall ever seeing Israeli parents, grieving after a Palestinian attack being viewed coldly and dispassionately as possible fakes. If you have ever lost a member of your immediate family, let alone a child, you might try to imagine how you would react if someone asked you to spend the rest of your life lying about how they died. Hundreds of children were killed. Their deaths could not possibly all be accidents. This is a war crime and if Israel is not a terrorist state, someone must be held accountable. I wouldn't view them as possible fakes if previous events hadn't indicated it was more than a possibility. Remember the man and his son shown around the world huddling at a checkpoint caught between the IDF and palestinian gunmen? Remember the heartbreaking video of him shielding his son? Remember little Mohammed Al-Dura? Did you know it appears it was basically made up to make the IDF look bad? Did you know the news agency that reported the incident lost a court case over an expert saying the entire incident was staged with teh knowledge of the cameraman? Your statement carries an air of certainty which I don't think you can stand up. The truth of the al-Durrah case, while disputed by some, has definitely not been proved a hoax. In fact, the IDF apologised fairly swiftly for shooting the boy. Later, there were attempts to discredit the account given. We can only guess at the reach of Mossad's propaganda arm and there is obviously a strong incentive for them to pull out all the stops here. I'm hesitant about wikipedia at the best of times but this entry at least gives an indication of how this narrative has progressed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Durrah I've followed this case very closely and the wikipedia site is going overboard in trying to be even handed. The french appelate court ruled that the expert who stated that the entire scene was staged was right beyond any reasonable doubt. That was 2 years ago and the french press agency still hasn't appealed that ruling likely because they don't think they can overturn it. quote: But let's remember we are still talking about the operation in January. So what's more pertinent here is your underlying assumption: that if one Palestinian lied once, not one of them can ever be considered truthful. And in the unlikely event the al-Durrah case was proven to be faked, you have given no real reason why the hundreds of infanticides in Gaza last January should also be considered fake. No I presented one very well documented case. There are many more. quote: It speaks volumes that you have to justify Operation Cast Lead by talking about the 60s, the 70s etc. What murderer ever used such a defence in court? Are the sins of the father to be visited on the son? No I justify Operatiopn Cast Lead based solely on the rocket attack against civilians on christmas day, done in the hopes it would not be reported in the west so people like you would blame Isarael. That it has succeeded is a triumph of the uninformed and the bigoted. Furthermore if nothing from the 70's and before is pertinent then the "refugees" are irrelevant and Hamas is a group with the stated goal of overthrowing a sovereign nation. Do nations have the right to police their territories against violent rebel groups?

Honsoku -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 10:55:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Do nations have the right to police their territories against violent rebel groups? This is really the crux of the debate. Some people inherently believe in the right to self defense, even if it kills the attacker, and others don't. The informed that do believe in that right almost always support Israel, and the informed that don't almost always support Hamas. The war is going to get nastier as time goes on because the people in the Israeli military now are almost exclusively people who grew up with the attacks. As you can imagine, their sympathy for the enemy is going to be virtually non-existent as they have been dealing with this crap their whole lives. Some people see this as David vs. Goliath, with Hamas as David. Instead, this is a proxy conflict between Israel and pretty much the rest of the Middle East. If you don't think that Hamas is helped by the rest of the Middle East, you are deluding yourself. In that light, is Hamas really the underdog? It's easy to sit somewhere else and say "They should be doing better". If you poke a dog with a sharp stick enough, he is going to bite you and not the stick. Yet, people here want to get mad at the dog for biting the wielder of the stick rather than the stick itself. How many of you have dealt with 20+ years of attacks and having to fight fair when the other side doesn't? Of being crucified every time something doesn't go as it should? Don't you think that eventually you would go "fuck you all, I'm sick of this hamstringing, I'm going to fight to win from now on"?

calamitysandra -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 1:36:15 AM)
Why is it so difficult to see that both sides in this war are at fault? Atrocities are committed left and right, and justifying the one with the other is exactly what keeps such conflicts alive. If we, sitting far away in front of a computer screen, resort to screaming "they did it first (or too), so we are allowed the same", how do we expect people who are really invested in the conflict to get away from the mindset of revenge and retaliation? Face it, humans, especially if put under pressure, are monsters, and capable of the worst atrocities. Regardless of nationality, religion, gender, or race.

Politesub53 -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 4:25:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I never used 9/11...and I don't deny atrocities. So please don't include "you" meaning me. My use of the word you was a generalisation, as was your quote about me being selective. I am sorry if you thought I had implied you brought 9/11 into the conversation though. quote: I may be mixing posts but I thought it was not the doubt of the reports existence... just their context. Some seem to be condemning all Israelis for the actions of a few. Rather than just the actions of a few, the reports suggested the IDF soldiers were acting on orders. One statement was they were ordered to search and trash every house, by senior commanders. Here is a link to the Jerusalem Post story, surely an unbiased source. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1237392666490&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

kdsub -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 8:36:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I never used 9/11...and I don't deny atrocities. So please don't include "you" meaning me. My use of the word you was a generalisation, as was your quote about me being selective. I am sorry if you thought I had implied you brought 9/11 into the conversation though. quote: I may be mixing posts but I thought it was not the doubt of the reports existence... just their context. Some seem to be condemning all Israelis for the actions of a few. Rather than just the actions of a few, the reports suggested the IDF soldiers were acting on orders. One statement was they were ordered to search and trash every house, by senior commanders. Here is a link to the Jerusalem Post story, surely an unbiased source. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1237392666490&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull I read the link carefully... I did not see where there was anything but an individual commander making a mistake and a few soldiers committing or accusing others of atrocities. Nowhere did I see anyone insinuate that these actions were military general orders. This is what I meant by context. But you know this report can’t exist because as stated by some above there is no free media in Israel. My point is these types of actions happen in every war…on both sides... the war should be rightly condemned. The actions of both sides should be included in this condemnation. But just picking one side to criticize without the other does nothing but inflame hate unnecessarily. Butch

KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 11:28:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen No I justify Operatiopn Cast Lead based solely on the rocket attack against civilians on christmas day, done in the hopes it would not be reported in the west so people like you would blame Isarael. That it has succeeded is a triumph of the uninformed and the bigoted. There are other ways of dealing with terrorism without flat out genocide of the land where the terrorists reside. Case in point - how Britain decided to deal with the IRA leading up to and after the Good Friday Agreement.

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