RE: Gaza - the facts emerge

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DomKen -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 11:48:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen No I justify Operatiopn Cast Lead based solely on the rocket attack against civilians on christmas day, done in the hopes it would not be reported in the west so people like you would blame Isarael. That it has succeeded is a triumph of the uninformed and the bigoted. There are other ways of dealing with terrorism without flat out genocide of the land where the terrorists reside. Case in point - how Britain decided to deal with the IRA leading up to and after the Good Friday Agreement. Israel tried good faith negotiation. The palestinian leadership never lived up to any part of any of the agreements.

KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 12:46:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Israel tried good faith negotiation. The palestinian leadership never lived up to any part of any of the agreements. That's not really true. I've read a number of good articles stating Israel is at least partially responsible for the collapse of the ceasefire agreement before the year through their continued blockades.

DomKen -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 12:54:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Israel tried good faith negotiation. The palestinian leadership never lived up to any part of any of the agreements. That's not really true. I've read a number of good articles stating Israel is at least partially responsible for the collapse of the ceasefire agreement before the year through their continued blockades. Oslo and all further agreements were implemented by Israel at least until the palestinians failed to meet their obligations. As to this last year, the rocket attacks never stopped. The ceasefire agreement wasn't being honored after the first rocket landed in Israel. Claiming the blockades weren't ended as an argument requires intentionally misreading the agreement to not require the cessation of rockets attacks and requiring the end of the blockade which isn't what the agreement actually said.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 6:19:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD There are other ways of dealing with terrorism without flat out genocide of the land where the terrorists reside. Using the inflammatory term "genocide" to describe the actions of the IDF is a flat give away to your biased and partisan position. The original meaning of "genocide" has been watered down by such Orwellian double-speak in an attempt to inflame public opinion. But ... if you wanna play ... according to your definition of the word ... the Palestinians are practicing "genocide" on the Israelis. And, has been pointed out, this genocide has been approved in the Hamas charter. So ... you support a group with avowed genocidal aims ... and you assist them in attacking their target group. Who is supporting genocide here? Firm

KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 6:47:12 PM)
In answer to your question, the guys that so easily and coldly defend the actions of those who killed over 1, 400 within the space of a few weeks. What do you call that? Mass murder? Collective punishment? Potential war crime?

FirmhandKY -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 6:55:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD That's not really true. I've read a number of good articles stating Israel is at least partially responsible for the collapse of the ceasefire agreement before the year through their continued blockades. Interesting turn of phrase there ... "at least partially responsible". So, it would be fair to say the converse? That Hamas is mostly largely responsible for the failure of the cease fire? And this makes DomKen wrong, how, exactly? (Hint: It doesn't. It's what he said, and what you claimed was wrong). Geez. Even you realize where the majority of the blame lies, and your own words reveal this ... yet you continue to totally deny any validity to posters who say what your own words acknowledge. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 6:57:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD In answer to your question, the guys that so easily and coldly defend the actions of those who killed over 1, 400 within the space of a few weeks. What do you call that? Mass murder? Collective punishment? Potential war crime? The right of self defense. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 7:07:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD In answer to your question, the guys that so easily and coldly defend the actions of those who killed over 1, 400 within the space of a few weeks. What do you call that? Mass murder? Collective punishment? Potential war crime? Since it was such a tasty and easy target, lets try this again .... What is your definition of "genocide"? Does the Hamas charter's pledge to destroy Israel and kill the Jews met your definition? Extracts: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory). "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors." "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. So, does these statements met your rather loose interpretation of advocating "genocide" or not? If they do, then why are you supporting a genocidal regime? If not, how do you get off accusing Israel of genocide? Firm

KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 7:08:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY The right of self defense. Firm When a murderer kills your child, do you hunt down and kill 50 members of the murderers family? Is that in any way self defense? You're not living in reality if you think those high death counts can be attributed to "self defense". Again, I have to point out that Britain (in the 90's and 00's at least) avoided collective punishment of the people of N. Ireland for the crimes of the IRA. Though there was Bloody Sunday, in the 70s, where British soldiers shot dead 14 innocent people. That one incident is attributed to the following high numbers of recruitment achieved by the IRA. It could take a hundred years for the Palestinians to forgive Israel for what happened this year, and that's provided Palestine and Israel even set aside their differences in the near future. Do you understand that? Your argument of "self defense" doesn't take into account the back and forth attacks that have went on for years between Israel and the Palestinians. Intellectuals can argue all day long about who started what, and people on the side of Gaza can make the argument that they have the right to fight for their land. The "self defense" argument doesn't take into account IDF use of human shields or the orders some recieved to fire on absolutely anyone irregardless of if they were armed, or if they were clearly marked medical personel, etc. The self defense argument is utterly bunk and dilusional.

KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 7:15:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Since it was such a tasty and easy target, lets try this again .... What is your definition of "genocide"? Does the Hamas charter's pledge to destroy Israel and kill the Jews met your definition? Extracts: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory). "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors." "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. So, does these statements met your rather loose interpretation of advocating "genocide" or not? If they do, then why are you supporting a genocidal regime? If not, how do you get off accusing Israel of genocide? Firm We have been through this. Over and over. I can only assume you're not reading the replies of people that disagree with your position. The difference is very simple. It's like adding 2 + 2. Hamas' tough talk is just words. Yes, they fire rockets. But their rockets are crap. Hamas does not have the means to wipe Israel off the face of the map. And there are more moderate Hamas members who have been to negotiations before that don't believe in killing every Jew in sight (which they don't have the ability to do anyway). How are Hamas going to be convinced "actually, you know what, being so hardline isn't such a good idea" if Israel insists on punishing Palestinians collectively? Israel's mass killings are real actions, they're not words on some charter. Phosphorus bombs, human shields, firing on civilians indescriminantly, destroying their medical facilities. Hamas talk about mass killing, Israel COMMITS mass killing. And besides, your argument is yet again a deflection game. It makes you uncomfortable to accept that Israel could be committing war crimes, so you talk about the Hamas charter. We all know Hamas are terrorists! Nobody here thinks Hamas are great.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 7:19:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY The right of self defense. Firm When a murderer kills your child, do you hunt down and kill 50 members of the murderers family? Is that in any way self defense? You're not living in reality if you think those high death counts can be attributed to "self defense". Again, I have to point out that Britain (in the 90's and 00's at least) avoided collective punishment of the people of N. Ireland for the crimes of the IRA. Though there was Bloody Sunday, in the 70s, where British soldiers shot dead 14 innocent people. That one incident is attributed to the following high numbers of recruitment achieved by the IRA. It could take a hundred years for the Palestinians to forgive Israel for what happened this year, and that's provided Palestine and Israel even set aside their differences in the near future. Do you understand that? Your argument of "self defense" doesn't take into account the back and forth attacks that have went on for years between Israel and the Palestinians. Intellectuals can argue all day long about who started what, and people on the side of Gaza can make the argument that they have the right to fight for their land. The "self defense" argument doesn't take into account IDF use of human shields or the orders some recieved to fire on absolutely anyone irregardless of if they were armed, or if they were clearly marked medical personel, etc. The self defense argument is utterly bunk and dilusional. Let me summarize your words: One dead Jews isn't enough provocation for self defense. One dead Palestinian is provocation enough for the destruction of Israel. Nuff said. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 7:25:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD We have been through this. Over and over. I can only assume you're not reading the replies of people that disagree with your position. The difference is very simple. It's like adding 2 + 2. Hamas' tough talk is just words. Yes, they fire rockets. But their rockets are crap. Hamas does not have the means to wipe Israel off the face of the map. And there are more moderate Hamas members who have been to negotiations before that don't believe in killing every Jew in sight (which they don't have the ability to do anyway). How are Hamas going to be convinced "actually, you know what, being so hardline isn't such a good idea" if Israel insists on punishing Palestinians collectively? Israel's mass killings are real actions, they're not words on some charter. Phosphorus bombs, human shields, firing on civilians indescriminantly, destroying their medical facilities. Hamas talk about mass killing, Israel COMMITS mass killing. And besides, your argument is yet again a deflection game. It makes you uncomfortable to accept that Israel could be committing war crimes, so you talk about the Hamas charter. We all know Hamas are terrorists! Nobody here thinks Hamas are great. So ... because Hamas has actually been incapable of committing the genocide that they espouse ... we should just pat them on the back and wish them luck the next time? So, when that fledgling serial killer breaks into your house, and blotches the murder of your family (he was only successful in killing a couple of your relatives), it really doesn't matter, and he shouldn't be charged with attempted murder ... because he was incompetent in doing the job he set out to do? That's your argument? Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 7:29:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD Hamas talk about mass killing, We all know Hamas are terrorists! So ... you do admit that Hamas advocates genocide, yes? Firm

KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 7:37:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY So ... because Hamas has actually been incapable of committing the genocide that they espouse ... we should just pat them on the back and wish them luck the next time? So, when that fledgling serial killer breaks into your house, and blotches the murder of your family (he was only successful in killing a couple of your relatives), it really doesn't matter, and he shouldn't be charged with attempted murder ... because he was incompetent in doing the job he set out to do? That's your argument? Firm I'm saying there is a difference between reality and fiction which you don't seem to understand. Your argument for justification of the deaths of thousands of people, is that Hamas talks tough in their charter. That doesn't make any sense. That's the kind of thinking that makes war nuts think it would be a great idea to go to war with Iran. Because their words about Israel are so mean. We need to deal with the reality which you are still unable to do. Can you accept that the IDF using human shields is wrong? Yes or no. Can you accept that the IDF bombing over half the medical facilities of Gaza is wrong? (And we know that they knew where those medical facilities were, the UN told them). Can you accept the high death count within such a short space of time points to a collective punishment of the Palestinians as a people? (Self defense would be more applicable a description if Israel didn't kill so many innocents, and we know at least some of their soldiers were ordered to shoot indescriminantly) And can you accept that this high death count is counter-productive to any chance for peace between the Palestinians and Israel? Without any deflections to the wrong doings of Hamas, who we already know are eeeeeeevil, can you answer those questions?

KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 7:39:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD Hamas talk about mass killing, We all know Hamas are terrorists! So ... you do admit that Hamas advocates genocide, yes? Firm Yes. They're not nice people. As I have told you a dozen times in this thread and the previous Gaza thread.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 7:44:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD Hamas talk about mass killing, We all know Hamas are terrorists! So ... you do admit that Hamas advocates genocide, yes? Firm Yes. They're not nice people. As I have told you a dozen times in this thread and the previous Gaza thread. Great. Now we are getting somewhere. So you support an organization which advocates genocide. Now we have that clear. Has Hamas taken steps to bring their advocation of genocide to reality? Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 7:45:45 PM)
And don't worry. We'll get to the Israelis in a minute. Fimr

KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 7:49:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Great. Now we are getting somewhere. So you support an organization which advocates genocide. Now we have that clear. Has Hamas taken steps to bring their advocation of genocide to reality? Firm Oh, for the love of God. That's how you give away your biased and partisan opinion. You assume that anyone that speaks out about the Israeli government and IDF must be Hamas loving terrorist lovers. Tell me, where have I said, or anyone thats spoken out against Israel on this board for that matter, stated that they support Hamas?

FirmhandKY -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 7:56:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD You assume that anyone that speaks out about the Israeli government and IDF must be Hamas loving terrorist lovers. Tell me, where have I said, or anyone thats spoken out against Israel on this board for that matter, stated that they support Hamas? support: give moral or psychological support, aid, or courage to aiding the cause or policy or interests of; By spreading propaganda, half-truths and lies, by taking a specific case and arguing it is the general case, you support the position of Hamas. You support an organization that you acknowledge is both terroristic and genocidal. Just for the sake of argument, if we agreed that Israel was also a genocidal entity (which I do not believe), why do you support one genocidal entity over another? Firm

KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/26/2009 8:02:50 PM)
So you're saying that Amnesty and Human Rights Watch and the UN are all in the business of spreading propaganda for Hamas? Also, I support the people of Gaza. I do not support Hamas.

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