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The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 5:45:20 PM   
CatdeMedici


Posts: 2257
Joined: 10/20/2008
Status: offline 		I am going to put out the premise that when one acquiesces to a Dominant, the "against my will" concept is crap-that it is really:
 
i am too lazy to do it
i want someone who cares about me to ask it
i want to do it but my moral upbringing won't set me free
i am too scared to do it alone
i am too uneducated to know the difference
i don't want to have a conscience about it
i need someone to care enough to accept it
i get off on the "game"
 
At that point it is---acquiescence--there is no forcing.
 
Forcing is truly aganst one's will, kicking, screaming, unexpected circumstances--bound, gagged, raped, committed, drugged---
 
A submissive can say no no no till they are blue in the face--if they REALLY do not intend to "go there"--they won't--they will leave, end the relationship--dump the D, fight, kick, claw, rebel--MAJOR.
 
but the whole " He/She makes me"--is because you really WANT He/She to have a vested interest in you, to give a damn, to want you to grow, to accept you--and you say "ok because you WANT to" at that point the "forced" card is a joker.
 
Thoughts?

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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 6:06:29 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		This may be the case on a subconscious level, but I don't think it is necessarily the case on the face of things.  I can feel very much like I just simply have no choice whatsoever.  I can actually convince myself that saying no is not an option due to my position in the relationship.  I can really see myself backed into a corner and with no recourse, but to do as I am told and suffer the consequences.  It is funny how this actually all works, but it is hard coded in me to feel this way with certain people and in certain situations.  Sometimes the light comes on and I find my feet and my voice again.  Other times, people who see the reality I can't have to intervene, sometimes with vehement protest from me.

I would say that a victim of domestic abuse is having things happen to them against their will since they do not view themselves as capable of changing the outcome despite being able to when enough is finally enough.  I think where it all changes is when the subconscious motivations are different and reveal themselves for what they really are.  A dominant may be able to see about me what I cannot see about myself, but it will seem "against my will" until I have come to terms with what others already acknowledge to be true about me.  I will fight, beg, and perhaps even say the dreaded no, but I will not leave because there is a draw to this person and what is being done that I do not yet understand.

Consciously something may feel against my will.  On other levels, I have needs and desires that are being met by the very things I feel violated by.  It is how I grow more often than not.  It can also be some of the most difficult things I will undergo in my life.

lovingpet   

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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 6:08:21 PM   
InTonguesslut


Posts: 401
Joined: 3/5/2009
Status: offline 		I personally can be forced to do something which is against my will without the kicking, screaming, fighting back etc. It's not because i want to do it either, it's because ultimately i know i am going to have to do it so why bother kicking up a huge fuss about it.
 
Yes i want Sir to have a vested interest in me and yes i do things i don't want to to keep him happy. However at no point do i really want to do the thing i am being forced into against my will. There is a difference between wanting to do something and wanting to keep someone happy. Two different entities.

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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 6:12:14 PM   
CatdeMedici


Posts: 2257
Joined: 10/20/2008
Status: offline 		Is not then, the "wanting to keep someone happy"--then a giving in, therefore not forcing?

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I am the Cat, holder of the whip and chair.

"Let's see-whips, dips, chains, chips, yep sounds like a party to Me!"

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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 6:16:38 PM   
InTonguesslut


Posts: 401
Joined: 3/5/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Is not then, the "wanting to keep someone happy"--then a giving in, therefore not forcing?

 
I can see where you are coming from but say someone attempted to rape me and i fought back like a wild banchee kicking and screaming. Thats force and against my will right? So what if someone tries to rape me and i don't fight back, what if i figure thats its going to happen whether i like it or not and just let them to get it over with. Is that not still force and against my will? 

_____________________________

Aka missturbation

It's not shopping if you buy 10 items or less.

If it fits in a toaster, i can cook it.

What you don't see with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Prov

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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 6:26:44 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		I have done things against my better judgment.  I have done things that I would prefer not to do.  They were not forced on me; it was my will to do his will. 

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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 6:29:44 PM   
antipode


Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Forcing is truly aganst one's will, kicking, screaming, unexpected circumstances--bound, gagged, raped, committed, drugged---


There is a considerable body of jurisprudence that says "force" can be blackmail, abuse of a position of seniority, instilling the fear of harm, etc. I believe in terms of one's own perception, which I assume you are referring to, it is just that - one's own perception. It is force if you feel forced, the reasoning is irrelevant.

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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 6:39:29 PM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		There are times when subs/slaves are basically given a choice:  "Do this task I have commanded" and the unspoken part is "or the relationship is over".  That's when things can get difficult.  The sub/slave may then give in to something that they would truly prefer not to do.  This could be big or small in the minds of others, but it is typically very big in the mind of the sub/slave.  (I know one slave who was furious at the thought of her Master telling her to sort clothes in the laundry room instead of while sitting on her bed.  She saw no reason for the order and it was enough to make her wonder if the relationship was worth it.  While that might seem laughable to an outsider it was very big to her.)

If the sub/slave decides to go through with the task they may feel that it is against their will, yet they are truly doing it to please someone else.  That means their will actually has come into play.  They made a conscious decision to take the action.

The "... or else" can be very scary to someone, getting them to do something that they would never do in any other circumstances.  I have no doubt that some feel pressured to do things that they feel are against their will in order to preserve their relationship.  If this is their choice then they have to remember that it is just that:  their choice.  That doesn't necessarily make the task easier, and I can certainly understand the pressure that some feel, but there is always the option of walking, as much as it might seem that would devastate them.




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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 6:47:51 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I think the word force is used to excuse an interest one cannot come to terms with often times.  Like when I read on a profile or someone says to me... I am into forced oral... forced bi... or... I am not bi but will be if my dominant tells me to be... and later tells another dominant that they like doing it or they are into being forced, but never think of it on their own.  Like who brought it up most of the time? lol  That is what I see most. 

Forced oral cracks me up!  Okay do you mean... I want you to be aggressive in pushing my head there to do that or.. must you be forced into something you don't like and if you don't like it... why would I want to force you... you most likely won't be very good for me?  Confusing... lol  Funny I don't hear forced to do housework or laundry too often.  They don't even want to bring that up... not often anyway.

I don't say I want to be forced to beat an ass... Let's get real..lol

As for the rest I think it is whatever dynamic's/kink/whatever someone agree's to how how they deal with the word or act of force/forced.

< Message edited by Lockit -- 3/24/2009 6:54:33 PM >

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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 7:07:07 PM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline 		Maybe sometimes.  There have been times where I've fought back against something and my partner has let it go and later I find myself feeling disappointed.  There have been times I've fought against something and my partner has let it go and it has been a huge relief.  We recently did something that I did not want to do.  I begged.  I pleaded.  He tied me up and did it while I continued to beg and plead.  He didn't do it to make me grow.  He did it because it turns him on and he wanted to get off.  I didn't want to do it, because it hurts a whole whole lot.  Being forced to do something almost instantly makes it hot for me, because it's the FORCING part that turns me on.  Except what he did last weekend.

I do agree that when I see 'forced-bi' 'forced-feminization' I do see that more a long the lines of what you describe.


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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 7:20:16 PM   
Daddysredhead


Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut

quote:

Is not then, the "wanting to keep someone happy"--then a giving in, therefore not forcing?

 
I can see where you are coming from but say someone attempted to rape me and i fought back like a wild banchee kicking and screaming. Thats force and against my will right? So what if someone tries to rape me and i don't fight back, what if i figure thats its going to happen whether i like it or not and just let them to get it over with. Is that not still force and against my will? 


Thank you so very much, ITS.  This was the exact analogy I was thinking of as I read this thread.  I actually know of a situation where the lady didn't fight back tooth and nail when she was being raped because she just "checked out" and let things get over and done with as fast as possible.  It served her well, except when some azzholes later told her that because she didn't scream her guts out, she wasn't really raped or violated.  I think those people who said that to her should be filleted, but that's just me.

There are things that I know I'm most probably going to have to do in the future, and some of them are things I have had on my "Oh hell no" list forever.  He has been fairly patient about letting me get used to the idea, but just because I do some things doesn't mean I'm really doing them of my own choosing.  Sometimes appeasing and complying are just the easier roads to take than being dragged off like a cave woman.

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Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 7:29:43 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Sometimes when being assaulted... it is not safe to fight back.  Whoever thinks because you didn't fight like hell, you really wanted it... knows nothing about how to get safely through some assaults. 

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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 7:32:47 PM   
Daddysredhead


Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline 		Lockit, I couldn't agree with you more.  That was my stance when I was trying to tell her years ago that a rape that didn't end up with slash marks or a bloody nose or a black eye, was still a rape.

_____________________________

Founding Member, Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's

Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

13th doughnut


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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 7:39:33 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		The "forced" things that I see discussed on these forums never seem to be of the assault level, thank goodness!  Mainly, it's as Lockit says, "make me".

I say hogwash.  If you do it to please me, fine.  If you want to do something, and ask me for it, also fine.  You shouldn't need coercion to make a thing "okay".

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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 7:50:09 PM   
Daddysredhead


Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline 		Hib, I completely understand what you're saying. 

Sometimes DB asks me if I "want" to do something and I have replied, "If you want me to, I will."  He then asks, "No, do you want to do ___?"  If I say no, then He may not say anything more at the time.  But on occasion, He will revisit the subject after more time has passed, to see if I feel the same way.

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Founding Member, Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's

Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 7:53:30 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Cat, my last boyfriend, who was also my Dominant, frequently enjoyed doing "forced" play with me (ie. me begging him to stop, telling him no, being rough with me, doing things I actually did not enjoy). I couldn't bring myself to roleplay that, I had to actually dislike what he was doing and want it to stop in order to go there. I disliked it at the time, but usually found it rewarding on some level as well, and he usually mixed in some things that I did like. He frequently deliberately kept me from getting an endorphin rush, because he felt that if I enjoyed what he was doing, I wasn't submitting to it, and he wanted that from me. It wasn't unconsentual, but there were a few times when I was in tears, or checked out/trying to go numb/hide inside myself because I genuinely was feeling miserable at the time. If it was too much for me, I could safe out, but I tried not to do that unless I truly couldn't take it. He respected my limits, though, and didn't try to make me do anything that I absolutely couldn't handle, so I didn't feel like a victim, or that I needed to leave. Saying no to him, even for something that I couldn't handle (either temporarily or in general) was very difficult for me.

I've seen a lot of submissive men here who want "forced play," and it seems to mean "You must dominate me to my specifications while verbally humiliating me in just the way I want you to, and you must get turned on or get off on it."

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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 7:54:51 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		I have the make me thing going on with some of the things I know darn well I want to do, but that I have trouble stomaching myself for wanting them.  In that case, I really want/need to be placed in a position where I do not really have a choice but to accept what I both want and fear.  It is a safety mechanism for me to be able to "blame" it on the big bad person that "made" me do it.  I am fully aware of all this, but it still mitigates the damage somehow.  This is different from force as in assault or force as in eliminating alternatives because things are being done with my well being in mind more than for kicks or kinks. 

I think it is the purpose of the action that defines it.  It is also my internal drive and desire that can potentially determine this as well.  Just because I desire something does not mean that, if not handled carefully, it can't become an abusive act toward me.  I have to be at some level of readiness in order to accept what is happening to me.  If the well being of the person is not a priority, an action has a high likelihood of become caustic to the person.  Pulling all this apart is difficult at times, but important.

lovingpet

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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 7:57:16 PM   
JovialSadist


Posts: 20
Joined: 3/14/2009
Status: offline 		In my younger days, I worked as an E.M.T. (and an E.R. Tech) in both Louisville, Ky and Tulsa, Ok. I've seen broken orbital sockets, faces beaten till the person couldn't open their eyes, inner thighs scaped, brused, and cut; all from fighting back... But Violence (ture rape) is not what I think the OP is talking about here.

I agree that subs and slave will give into pressure from their Dom or Master in order to please them. And I agree that some people feel that by "being forced" it allows them to remove the thought that they've gone against every teaching they had as a child. But can you really force someone to do something against their will without violence? And if things become violent, doesn't that cross the line into abuse? 

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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 7:59:24 PM   
Daddysredhead


Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

Saying no to him, even for something that I couldn't handle (either temporarily or in general) was very difficult for me.


Interesting.  I was having this discussion with DB just the other day.  I was telling Him that I never wanted to feel like I had wimped out on something because it got too much for me at a particular time.  Knowing this, He has been able to stop things when they are going too far because I may not use good sense to call it off because I think I will eventually be able to push through. 

_____________________________

Founding Member, Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's

Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

13th doughnut


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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 8:37:22 PM   
LovingMistress45


Posts: 271
Joined: 2/7/2009
Status: offline 		I would say that most of time "forced" is a game.  However, I do think that a dominant can exert a powerful influence on a submissive to do something they wouldn't under other circumstances.  It may not really be forced, but I think that at times it may be a choice between what they feel is 2 uncomfortable choices. So, there is choice so maybe it isn't truly forced.  I know I have had submissives do things that were not something wanted to do.

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