RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of

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Marc2b -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 5:33:20 PM)
quote: Merc recognising current reality is one thing,accepting that this must allways be so quite another.It would seem you are fine with the whole children must die thing.....as long as America doesn't go down any "Socialized Medicine" path. Are you actually comfortable with a stance that basically says the worlds richest economy can not afford to see to the health of all its citizens in a costly and efficient manner? When did I say that we must accept the current reality or that I’m okay with children dying. Allow me to repeat myself: “Recognizing reality does not make a person evil. It does not mean that such a person wants to see people die needlessly from lack of health care (or from freezing to death on the street because they don’t have a home) and to presume such about others based only upon their opinion is nothing more than bigotry. Nor does it mean that such people don’t believe that things could be better or that new ideas should not be tried. What it means is that we reject pat, meaningless slogans in favor of critical reasoned analysis and debate.” What I also reject is: Self righteous hypocrites who believe themselves to be morally superior because they chant some slogans whilst giving no thought to whether or not their social schemes will actually work. The notion that the government is capable of actually ensuring that all of its citizens receive health care especially in a costly (huh? I presume you mean economical) and efficient manner. Any honest study of the history of government should disabuse anyone of the notion that the government is capable of doing anything in a economical and efficient manner.

philosophy -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 5:42:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b The notion that the government is capable of actually ensuring that all of its citizens receive health care especially in a costly (huh? I presume you mean economical) and efficient manner. Any honest study of the history of government should disabuse anyone of the notion that the government is capable of doing anything in a economical and efficient manner. ...ok, whats better? A health care system operated by private industry, where the criterion that decides whether or not expensive procedures are recieved is based on the patients economic status, or a system that is run by the government where expensive procedures are performed on the basis of need but which runs 10% less efficiently?

Marc2b -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 5:44:08 PM)
quote: Don't be too horrified. Gramps already said "fuck you" to the upcoming generations, when he lived beyond his means on his grandkids credit cards. The jobs for Gramp's grandkids was sold overseas so Gramps could earn 20% on his retirement portfolio in a time when our economic engine simply cannot support such returns. Medicare for only 65 and older is simply more of that selfishness And you know all of this about Gramps… how? Are you psychic? It seems to me that you are the perfect person to head up the new health care bureaucracy. That is, a person who knows nothi9ng about the millions of lives you will affect yet still consider yourself knowledgeable (and morally superior) to substitute your judgments for theirs. Perhaps you are right. Fuck Gramps! He is nothing but a drain on society! He should be put down for the good of the rest of us! While we are at it, let’s deny medical care to the mentally retarded and the physically disabled – they too are drains on society. So what if their families can afford them health care? They shouldn’t be allowed too! Not when there are people whom they State deems more valuable. How selfish of such people to spend their own money on one of their loved ones! They should be forced to take care of strangers in the name of social equality!

Owner59 -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 5:46:13 PM)
*the Republican party base* the lowest common denominator McCain saying he wanted her to "compete" was code for and an admission that he made the wrong decision picking her.Otherwise it would have been a ringing endorsement. Did anyone hear her recent whine that the McCain campaign didn`t provide anyone to "pray with her". You can`t make this shit up.... ~Run Sarah Run~ <brought to you by dems for Plain"12">

slvemike4u -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 5:48:16 PM)
So that's it heh Merc Governement can't do anything efficiantly,so Gov't should stay out of health care.The fallacy that Gov't never works is a convienant crutch for some.Point of fact the gov't does many things well. Amazing thing is Republicans run on this bullshit,just wish when they won...they wouldn't work so hard to prove it!

Owner59 -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 5:57:51 PM)
That private enterprise works better than government is a myth bush put to rest.RIP... Ask any vet whether they want private care or the VA and you`ll get a pretty good barometer of who does a better job.

rulemylife -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 6:01:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual Human life (actually all life) and economics are inseperable. I can only offer my sorrow that you truly seem to believe that. And I can only marvel at those who are so ignorant of the history of man/biology/evolution that they don't recognize that it is a fact, not a "belief". Economics are not a fact. Economics are rules we made up to live by. Rules can and should be changed when they are not working.

penandknife -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 6:07:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: DedicatedDom40 quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual ownership class? lmao Sure. We have a private system where eligibility is primarily keyed off of employment status. The owners of those businesses decide who works for them, and by extension, who is offered coverage under their group plan. If you dont have a job, you certainly cannot afford health coverage on your own. Yes, the business owner class is currently playing the same role of 'decider' that you walk around in such fear of the government doing. Sorry, either I misinterpreted or you misused "class". The use of "class" in common political discourse generally refers to a group that is defined and closed. The "ownership class" as you describe it far from that. It is open to all with the drive, ingenuity and desire to become part of it. If only that were true. I live in an area where nobody, not even long-established businesses with flawless credit and years of demonstrable income, can get loans. I do in fact have my own business, but we're operating at sub-survival rates right now because we can't get loans for any of our larger projects (and we were screwed over so badly by a contractor refusing to pay their invoices that we lost an entire quarter's worth of income, which essentially drove us out of business). We're making do with trying to grow the parts of the business that we already have the equipment for. Sure, it'll pay off someday, especially since all of us have the drive to make it that way, and we're surviving due to the ingenuity of all of us as a group as well as our abilities as individuals, and our desire to become part of it is what keeps us going in the face of the economy and the fact that, despite our 100+ hour weeks, we aren't even close to making enough to afford more than the bare basics: food, clothing, and shelter. Health care? Don't make me laugh. Even in the good old days when we started up and were growing at 250% per month in profits, we couldn't afford a group health plan, much less individual ones. It's a sad fact that you can have entrepreneurial spirit or you can have health coverage, but chances are you won't have both. At least, not for years, or by compromising and giving in to working for a large corporation that can afford health insurance. Add in the fact that we were in that buffer zone between making too little to afford health care and making too much to qualify for state programs... well, we used to joke about having to take a hit out on me in case one of us went to the hospital, because at least my life insurance was worth something! So yes, the American Dream is wonderful, but it's just that -- a dream. Entrepreneurship is not for everyone, and honestly, if I didn't have my abilities as a gardener and the luck of having a roommate who is also a supportive friend and a family that's willing to band together, I'd be stuck on welfare or worse. Not everyone has the luck of the draw that I've had in life, or that you've had, or that those Canadians at American doctors' offices have. For what it's worth, I would be perfectly willing to give half my income in taxes if it meant being able to have guaranteed health care. Four hours to wait for a visit is a lot better than dying of untreated cancer. Besides, half my income is nothing -- the cheapest premium I could find for myself was 125% of my income while working two jobs.

Marc2b -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 6:08:00 PM)
quote: ...ok, whats better? A health care system operated by private industry, where the criterion that decides whether or not expensive procedures are recieved is based on the patients economic status, or a system that is run by the government where expensive procedures are performed on the basis of need but which runs 10% less efficiently? You are assuming that the government will perform on the basis of need but do you really believe that if the man who donated money to Senator So and So’s campaign needs a hip replacement he’ll end up in line behind the ten year old who needs a new kidney? The free market (which we do not have in this country’s health care system right now) may not be perfect but it is far superior to a system run by a few powerful individuals.

rulemylife -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 6:11:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY She put more excitement and drew more activity to the Republican party base than anything else that happened during the election. Yes she did, because you have a lot of horny old men in the Republican Party who haven't been able to get their dicks hard since 1970. Ahh ... another insult to your political opponents ... sure goes a long way to help heal the riff, huh? Makes you are real lovable ole' teddy-bear, that ... Firm Ah, lighten up. Do I need to put one of those smiley faces in every reply to make you realize it was a joke?

penandknife -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 6:12:27 PM)
That's the problem, though, Marc. The system is already run by a few more powerful individuals, so that much wouldn't change. At least we'd have a slight advantage if we were able to elect those powerful individuals and have some accountability in place, rather than depending on the stock portfolio considerations of a wealthy few.

rulemylife -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 6:21:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual Whatever talents and abilities she does have won't be counted. The Begala/Carville/Stephanopolous wrecking team will ensure that only personal issues are empahsized. She has been quite effectively "Dan Quayled" by their tactics. I heard they were actually long-lost cousins. Who would have guessed?

Marc2b -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 6:23:13 PM)
quote: So that's it heh Merc Governement can't do anything efficiantly,so Gov't should stay out of health care.The fallacy that Gov't never works is a convienant crutch for some.Point of fact the gov't does many things well. Amazing thing is Republicans run on this bullshit,just wish when they won...they wouldn't work so hard to prove it! First of all I’m Marc, not Merc. Merc is the guy in the hat with his hands on Beth’s boobs (no doubt taking personally responsibility for their health care and checking for breast cancer). Please point to me something that government does well. Killing people, either directly or through neglect, and oppressing people are the only things that I can think of. I don’t deny that government has its legitimate functions (paving the roads, delivering the mail, locking up the murders, etc.) but that is a far cry from saying that it carries out its functions well. The problem with government is that is concentrated power and all concentrated power becomes corrupt. This is why I fail to understand why some people think that the solution to one small group of people abusing power is to hand that power over to another small group. The “solution” is the diffusion of power (sort of what the Constitution had in mind).

rulemylife -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 6:33:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: DedicatedDom40 Today, the ownership class pretty much makes the determination of who lives and dies, primarily based on who is the cheapest employee. Seriously, you are worried about the government doing the same thing that the ownership class does today? ownership class? lmao What exactly are you lmao about? Do you believe we live in a classless society?

Marc2b -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 6:34:57 PM)
quote: That private enterprise works better than government is a myth bush put to rest.RIP... Bush was the President, a government position, not a private enterprise one. He used his authority to thwart the free market by favoring some corporations over other (it is a myth that businesses love the free market, in fact they hate it because the free market allows competition). How can deliberately thwarting the free market be proof of it’s failure? Part of the problem here is people’s definition of what constitutes failure. A large corporation going under due to the incompetence of its managers is a failure of that particular corporation but it is actually a success of the free market. The failures go under (if they are not bailed out by corrupt government officials trolling for votes and campaign contributions), the successful ones prosper. quote: Ask any vet whether they want private care or the VA and you`ll get a pretty good barometer of who does a better job. Well, all the Vets I know avoid the VA hospitals like the plague so I guess that answers that.

CruelNUnsual -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 6:38:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual It depends on what you mean by a "right". I am (and assume that those who maintain that health care is a right are) referring to it in terms of something intrinsic and external to a given societies rules. Voting by women, men, or chimpanzees is only a "right" because a given society says it is or isnt so. Health care may well become a societal right, that doesnt make it a "universal" right. .....ok, what in your opinion consitutes a universal right? Can you give an example? No, because there are none. There are universal laws, though they generally fall into the category of survival of the fittest. ....figured you'd say that. Which means, in your terms, the only rights are societal rights and there is no point in making a distinction between societal rights and universal ones. Therefore, a right to health care.....if passed into law by US government...becomes a real right, just like the right to vote, right to free speech etc....... exactly. And if you disagree with those laws you have 3 options, change them, violate them and risk the consequences, or find someplace with laws you like better. (and that is no different for "universal laws" that you happen to disagree with, if you believe they exist at all)

slvemike4u -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 6:49:36 PM)
I apologise for the Merc thinh Marc....please think of it as a typo,and nothing more.Let's see things gov't does well.....Now the bar here is does well,not perfect,right? Dept.of Justice ...Treasury ...Interior...Defence...should I keep going are is that enough examples for you Marc.

rulemylife -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 6:50:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual Sorry, either I misinterpreted or you misused "class". The use of "class" in common political discourse generally refers to a group that is defined and closed. The "ownership class" as you describe it far from that. It is open to all with the drive, ingenuity and desire to become part of it. I don't know how many ways I can say this is nonsense. Tell me, if I have "the drive and ingenuity" can I become like Donald Trump who trumps people into believing he is a self-made success when he inherited his money from his father?

CruelNUnsual -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 6:50:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: penandknife quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual quote: ORIGINAL: DedicatedDom40 quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual ownership class? lmao Sure. We have a private system where eligibility is primarily keyed off of employment status. The owners of those businesses decide who works for them, and by extension, who is offered coverage under their group plan. If you dont have a job, you certainly cannot afford health coverage on your own. Yes, the business owner class is currently playing the same role of 'decider' that you walk around in such fear of the government doing. Sorry, either I misinterpreted or you misused "class". The use of "class" in common political discourse generally refers to a group that is defined and closed. The "ownership class" as you describe it far from that. It is open to all with the drive, ingenuity and desire to become part of it. If only that were true. I live in an area where nobody, not even long-established businesses with flawless credit and years of demonstrable income, can get loans. I do in fact have my own business, but we're operating at sub-survival rates right now because we can't get loans for any of our larger projects (and we were screwed over so badly by a contractor refusing to pay their invoices that we lost an entire quarter's worth of income, which essentially drove us out of business). We're making do with trying to grow the parts of the business that we already have the equipment for. Sure, it'll pay off someday, especially since all of us have the drive to make it that way, and we're surviving due to the ingenuity of all of us as a group as well as our abilities as individuals, and our desire to become part of it is what keeps us going in the face of the economy and the fact that, despite our 100+ hour weeks, we aren't even close to making enough to afford more than the bare basics: food, clothing, and shelter. Health care? Don't make me laugh. Even in the good old days when we started up and were growing at 250% per month in profits, we couldn't afford a group health plan, much less individual ones. It's a sad fact that you can have entrepreneurial spirit or you can have health coverage, but chances are you won't have both. At least, not for years, or by compromising and giving in to working for a large corporation that can afford health insurance. Add in the fact that we were in that buffer zone between making too little to afford health care and making too much to qualify for state programs... well, we used to joke about having to take a hit out on me in case one of us went to the hospital, because at least my life insurance was worth something! So yes, the American Dream is wonderful, but it's just that -- a dream. Entrepreneurship is not for everyone, and honestly, if I didn't have my abilities as a gardener and the luck of having a roommate who is also a supportive friend and a family that's willing to band together, I'd be stuck on welfare or worse. Not everyone has the luck of the draw that I've had in life, or that you've had, or that those Canadians at American doctors' offices have. For what it's worth, I would be perfectly willing to give half my income in taxes if it meant being able to have guaranteed health care. Four hours to wait for a visit is a lot better than dying of untreated cancer. Besides, half my income is nothing -- the cheapest premium I could find for myself was 125% of my income while working two jobs. Readers Digest version: I couldnt make it so no one else can. Heres a different story: I worked/studied 80-90 hours a week for 10 years and got a combination of credentials and experience that about a dozen other people in the country I have. I became a partner in one of the largest consulting firms in the world, running a $5 million a year book of business. Thanks to the manager from hell and the sale of my largest client I was RIFd. So I moved across the country to join an LBO. We flipped that company and I was out of work again. So I started my own company, took second and third mortgages and no salary for nearly 2 years to hire the best support staff in our business...with pay and benefits competitive with the big boys or I wouldnt have gotten them...in the second highest medical cost market in the country. 5 years we bill $9 million with a staff of 12. Guess what. There are winners and there are losers. Only you can decide how much you'll sacrifice to be a winner, and Im sure as hell going to fight to have what I earned not taken away.

CruelNUnsual -> RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of (3/30/2009 6:52:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual Sorry, either I misinterpreted or you misused "class". The use of "class" in common political discourse generally refers to a group that is defined and closed. The "ownership class" as you describe it far from that. It is open to all with the drive, ingenuity and desire to become part of it. I don't know how many ways I can say this is nonsense. Tell me, if I have "the drive and ingenuity" can I become like Donald Trump who trumps people into believing he is a self-made success when he inherited his money from his father. no matter how many ways you say it, they are all wrong. buh bye

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