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ORIGINAL: Aynne88

Exactly. What Firm sees as being condescending isn't really. It is out and out disgust on this prevelant attitude that all things science are bad and anti-american, and being "Joe the Plumber" is better. Better than what? I don't want one of the "regular folk" running this country, do you? This dumbing down of America has got to stop.

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How simple. I believe if you go back a few pages here, I have them as well and in Maine they are really the only company that many doctor's will take, they have the largest coverage, and there is basically no worthy competion. I explained this already to CruelandUnusual. Not to speak for rule. Of course, you also need to enroll only at certain times, and have a physical in some cases, etc. Not quite as simple as your suggestion.  They are also very expensive and getting another 14.5% rate increase next month. Wonderful system..

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ORIGINAL: DedicatedDom40

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you apparently believe that health care is a "right", and not a service that you work for and pay for. I don't.

It is funny that when I look around, this country is the only one who believes healthcare is a service that you work and pay for.  If we are so correct in our current approach, how come we stand alone?

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And when you're exercising your right to wait 6 months for surgery or sit 4 hours for a check-up you can think about how to fix a system that really has problems.

These foreign countries accept the reality of a 6 month wait for hip replacement surgery, a far cry from waiting times here, only because their system places a greater priority on covering more of the younger population who is able to work and produce a return on the public investment for their economy. They accept the reality that hip replacement surgery for a 75 year old isnt available on 3 days notice, as spending money in that scenario isn't the best investment for their dollars.

Those other countries cover basic services for everyone, getting a greater return on their dollars, while we deny the young and only invest in the old, ultimately planting our public dollars into the ground along with the elderly body.

I am at a loss as to how anybody can think our approach is better. Pointing to the 'merits' of 3-day access to costly, extreme procedures for the elderly doesn't buy us out of that doghouse.

As for the Canadian plates in the parking lot, those are merely the hypoctites. They are people who enjoy universal access to basic services, but come here for the extreme procedures only because they can, and becuase the uninsured in this country "fund" this 3-day access for them.  A few hypocrites who cross the border for selfish reasons is not an indicatior of systemic failure. Its an indicator of people who enjoyed their benefits, but who skipped out when their turn to wait came.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

She sank it for the Reps this election: she would do it again, if she were nominated.

She put more excitement and drew more activity to the Republican party base than anything else that happened during the election.

McCain was his own disaster.

No rewriting history Firm.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/04/exit.polls/index.html?iref=24hours

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ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

I know Obama is a total failure but its way way to early to be talking about 2012.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b


The difference between me and you is that you want a third party to substitute its judgement for that of the peoples.  You want the government to decided who is properly helping and who is not and then enforce that descision.  Well fuck that!  I believe in freedom.

It never ceases to amaze me that the wing of politics that like to shout "power to the people!" balks at the idea of actually giving power to the people. 

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Yes, that's the answer.

Because they all aren't the same?

You want to argue government health care would be a monolithic bureaucracy but what do we have now if not that?

No.  They are not all the same.  You have options.  If you don't like any of the options that's not my problem. 

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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...ok, whats better?
A health care system operated by private industry, where the criterion that decides whether or not expensive procedures are recieved is based on the patients economic status, or a system that is run by the government where expensive procedures are performed on the basis of need but which runs 10% less efficiently?

You are assuming that the government will perform on the basis of need but do you really believe that if the man who donated money to Senator So and So’s campaign needs a hip replacement he’ll end up in line behind the ten year old who needs a new kidney?

The free market (which we do not have in this country’s health care system right now) may not be perfect but it is far superior to a system run by a few powerful individuals.

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ORIGINAL: Aynne88

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Thanks, I already have that, it's called Anthem Blue Cross/Blueshield.

If you don't like them then find a different insurance company.

How simple. I believe if you go back a few pages here, I have them as well and in Maine they are really the only company that many doctor's will take, they have the largest coverage, and there is basically no worthy competion. I explained this already to CruelandUnusual. Not to speak for rule. Of course, you also need to enroll only at certain times, and have a physical in some cases, etc. Not quite as simple as your suggestion.  They are also very expensive and getting another 14.5% rate increase next month. Wonderful system..

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

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ORIGINAL: Aynne88

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Thanks, I already have that, it's called Anthem Blue Cross/Blueshield.

If you don't like them then find a different insurance company.

How simple. I believe if you go back a few pages here, I have them as well and in Maine they are really the only company that many doctor's will take, they have the largest coverage, and there is basically no worthy competion. I explained this already to CruelandUnusual. Not to speak for rule. Of course, you also need to enroll only at certain times, and have a physical in some cases, etc. Not quite as simple as your suggestion.  They are also very expensive and getting another 14.5% rate increase next month. Wonderful system..

*sigh*

I hate to do this, because I really, REALLY don't want a monolithic government health care system ...

But in many places, especially rural areas, the current private insurance system is broken.

I've got a lot of experience with Anthem.  None of it good.

As a small business owner in Kentucky several years ago, the state government got into a mess with legislating health insurance.  Blue Cross went private, and became Anthem.  Illegally, it turns out.  They did this in response to a new Kentucky laws that ended up running out every other single private insurance carrier (and, I'm pretty sure, in response to Tennessee's "Hillary-Health-lite" insurance changes that ended up bankrupting the Medicare/Medicad system in that state).

Suffice it to say, once Anthem had a monopoly in the state, the premiums for my company - where I paid 100% of all family health care coverage for all my employees - went from about $30k to year, to $30k a month ... and they started cancelling anyone they considered "high risk" (they had more than a couple of claims in a year).

They wouldn't pay claims in any kind of timely manner, without constant calls and intervention.  Even after we went to the State Insurance Ombudsmen. 

The law would't allow them to cancel some of the policies in the time frame that was convenient for them, so all of a sudden they "never received" our renewal one year, despite the fact that the local agent had proof of receipt, and proof of transmittal to their state offices.

I testified about the sordid mess to the State's Joint Legislatures' Insurance and Banking Committee, with documentation.  The Anthem lobbyist met with us and was the nicest, friendliest guy in the world, assuring us that he would ensure that everything was straightened out.

We left, and the next week received notice that all our remaining polices were canceled.  No reason.  Just because.

Bastards.

I'm no longer in Kentucky, with my old company, but the bad taste left in my mouth tells me that the current system is broken.  I'm not sure I'm smart enough to tell anyone how to fix it, but what I do know is that a similar monoply, run by the government will likely not fix all the problems, and will likely encourage more problems.

Not sure that there are any easy answers.

Firm

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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How simple. I believe if you go back a few pages here, I have them as well and in Maine they are really the only company that many doctor's will take, they have the largest coverage, and there is basically no worthy competion. I explained this already to CruelandUnusual. Not to speak for rule. Of course, you also need to enroll only at certain times, and have a physical in some cases, etc. Not quite as simple as your suggestion.  They are also very expensive and getting another 14.5% rate increase next month. Wonderful system..

Actually it is as simple as I'm suggesting, you are just confusing the concept of simple with the concept of easy.  If you can't get anything else where you live then work to change whatever law is keeping the competition out (sounds like somebody in government is getting paid off somewhere) or move to another state with more options.  If that's not possible... Well then, I guess you are just shit out of luck.  You may find this hard to believe but the rest of society does not exist in order to bend over backwards and kiss it's own ass in order to please you.  Take charge and do something about it.

I'm not trying to come across as harsh and nasty but we are well into what I like to call the "what if... what if..." phase of a debate.  The problem with that is that you can "what if," from now until doomsday, the only thing it proves is that reality doens't allow for perfection. 

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Yes, that's the answer.

Because they all aren't the same?

You want to argue government health care would be a monolithic bureaucracy but what do we have now if not that?

No.  They are not all the same.  You have options.  If you don't like any of the options that's not my problem. 

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b
In my opinion, most people who go about proclaiming that health care (or “decent” housing, or a job, etc.) is a right do so not because they actually care about everybody but only because they want to stroke their own ego and feel morally superior to those of us who recognize reality for what it is.

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It never ceases to amaze me that people do not realize we are the government.

We have the power.

We just don't always use it wisely.

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......sorry Marc, but you copped out of really answering me there. i was raised under a system where, if you needed medical treatment, you got it. No if's, no but's......no changing the subject to whether or not corruption exists. Now, what you may not know is that in the UK there exists two healthcare systems. The NHS and private care if you want and can afford it. They do have some links.....but broadly operate completely seperately. So if you are rich enough to donate tons to a political party you can go private. If you're a pleb like my mother...when you get breast cancer you get diagnosed and treated as speedily as if you had gone private. Not a hypothetical situation.....a real one.

So next time you slag off the morals or possibility of a nationalised health care system working...think of my mother. She's alive today because of the NHS.....in the US, at her pay grade she'd be dead.........so you'll forgive me if i don't see this issue as being about whether or not government ought to be involved in health care....or whether an NHS can operate efficiently....or whether its about the moraility of letting the state provide some aspects of daily life. For me, and millions outside the US, nationalised health care is about the poor not needlessly dying. Your apparent inability to see that saddens me.

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Seriously? I was born here, and my business which I have owned for 20 years is here. So no, not moving over a fucked up insurance system.  Perhaps you just punch a clock, not sure, but I have employees and a successful business here.  Not trying to be harsh, like you said. . Just dealing in the realities of it. You guys all seem to think it is ok to just pay through the nose, it is interesting. No mention of how much not having government health insurance really costs us, as in people on the welfare systems getting care that we pay for. It makes no sense logically, does it to you? 

May I direct you to Firm's post re: Anthem. Let's see how you react when one of "your own" says the same thing. Have fun with that.