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RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 7:00:23 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		If you`re so scary talented,why didn`t you warn us and the world about the impending financial disaster?

lol

Ya fired...

~Dom`ald Trump~

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RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 7:01:17 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
There are winners and there are losers. Only you can decide how much you'll sacrifice to be a winner, and Im sure as hell going to fight to have what I earned not taken away.


And here we have it: the sucky mentality that has just sunk the Amerikhan Dweam - Hollywoodian Reaganitics. Thankfully, people are realising what a complete con it's been. Oil well, better late than never, aye?

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RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 7:03:32 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

That's the problem, though, Marc. The system is already run by a few more powerful individuals, so that much wouldn't change. At least we'd have a slight advantage if we were able to elect those powerful individuals and have some accountability in place, rather than depending on the stock portfolio considerations of a wealthy few.


What does that mean exactly, “the stock portfolio considerations of a wealthy few”?
I am far from wealthy but I have health care coverage.  The poorest amongst us do indeed have trouble getting health care but that is a far cry from saying only the wealthy few can get it.  The question is, how do we get health care coverage for those to poor to afford it?  Some people think the solution is to have the government confiscate a portion of the earnings of others and then using it to pay for such care.  I think a far better solution is to help those poor people rise above poverty (well, those who are willing to accept personal responsibility for their own lives) by having an economy with plenty of well paying jobs.  The solution to that is less taxes and less government spending but I’ll leave that for another thread – this thread has drifted off topic far enough already.

What were we talking about?  Pallets or something?

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RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 7:04:57 PM   
penandknife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

Readers Digest version: I couldnt make it so no one else can.

Heres a different story: I worked/studied 80-90 hours a week for 10 years and got a combination of credentials and experience that about a dozen other people in the country I have. I became a partner in one of the largest consulting firms in the world, running a $5 million a year book of business. Thanks to the manager from hell and the sale of my largest client I was RIFd. So I moved across the country to join an LBO. We flipped that company and I was out of work again.   So I started my own company, took second and third mortgages and no salary for nearly 2 years to hire the best support staff in our business...with pay and benefits competitive with the big boys or I wouldnt have gotten them...in the second highest medical cost market in the country. 5 years we bill $9 million with a staff of 12.

Guess what. There are winners and there are losers. Only you can decide how much you'll sacrifice to be a winner, and Im sure as hell going to fight to have what I earned not taken away.


First of all, the "I couldn't make it so no one else can" comment is very much NOT what I was saying. I was stating that the entrepreneurial class is not universally accessible. SOME can make it, but not all.

Since we're doing the Reader's Digest versions of our tales, I'll take a crack at summarizing yours: "I'm from a middle-class white family and enjoyed middle-class white male privileges that gave me advantages that women and minorities generally don't have to support a course of action that I tout as the universal solution while refusing to acknowledge that I actively am against giving everyone an equal opportunity to make the attempt." The funny thing is, your story more supports my take on things than your "if I can do it, EVERYONE can" stance.

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RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 7:12:04 PM   
penandknife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

That's the problem, though, Marc. The system is already run by a few more powerful individuals, so that much wouldn't change. At least we'd have a slight advantage if we were able to elect those powerful individuals and have some accountability in place, rather than depending on the stock portfolio considerations of a wealthy few.


What does that mean exactly, “the stock portfolio considerations of a wealthy few”?


What I meant was that health care policies are determined by people who have their profits in mind when they make key decisions, not the general good of the public. Since I'm not innocent enough (anymore) to believe that people in power are genuinely interested in anything but keeping that power to any real degree, I would prefer to have someone making those decisions who felt their job was staked on making the right decision by the public than making that decision based on their profit margin.

quote:

I am far from wealthy but I have health care coverage.  The poorest amongst us do indeed have trouble getting health care but that is a far cry from saying only the wealthy few can get it. 


Quibble point: It's not even the poorest anymore. Yes, the system is taxed by the poorest, but it's the growing segment of lower middle class families that are creating the most new demand for government-funded health care.

quote:

The question is, how do we get health care coverage for those to poor to afford it?  Some people think the solution is to have the government confiscate a portion of the earnings of others and then using it to pay for such care.  I think a far better solution is to help those poor people rise above poverty (well, those who are willing to accept personal responsibility for their own lives) by having an economy with plenty of well paying jobs.  The solution to that is less taxes and less government spending but I’ll leave that for another thread – this thread has drifted off topic far enough already.


I don't think this is a genuinely solvable problem, unfortunately. Capitalism depends on creating supply and demand, and people by nature want to generate as much profit for their efforts as possible. As long as withholding supply generates the highest margin, you're just not going to convince anyone to increase supply and satisfy the demand at the cost of their margins. No matter how I turn this problem over in my head, there's just no good solution given the current systems.

quote:

What were we talking about?  Pallets or something?


Oh man, I could go for a bonfire on the beach right about now.

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RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 7:14:37 PM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If you`re so scary talented,why didn`t you warn us and the world about the impending financial disaster?






Far less due to talent and far more due to busting my ass. And I did warn my clients about the risks to the system due to the  collapse of the housing and credit markets. But no one could predict how deep the corruption of the Senate Finance Committee went and how inept the response would be.

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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 7:17:57 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

I apologise for the Merc thinh Marc....please think of it as a typo,and nothing more.Let's see things gov't does well.....Now the bar here is does well,not perfect,right? Dept.of Justice ...Treasury ...Interior...Defence...should I keep going are is that enough examples for you Marc.


Are you seriously (especially in light of recent events) sighting the Department of the Treasury as a well run government department?  The Department of Justice?  The same department that hired prosecutors based upon their political loyalty rather than their merit (to name just one scandal)?  The Interior Department’s history is loaded with scandals of bribery and graft (Wikipedia has a good article on this).  I’ll grant you the Defense department but then, like I said, killing people has been one of the things that governments have always done well.       

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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 7:18:52 PM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: penandknife

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

Readers Digest version: I couldnt make it so no one else can.

Heres a different story: I worked/studied 80-90 hours a week for 10 years and got a combination of credentials and experience that about a dozen other people in the country I have. I became a partner in one of the largest consulting firms in the world, running a $5 million a year book of business. Thanks to the manager from hell and the sale of my largest client I was RIFd. So I moved across the country to join an LBO. We flipped that company and I was out of work again.   So I started my own company, took second and third mortgages and no salary for nearly 2 years to hire the best support staff in our business...with pay and benefits competitive with the big boys or I wouldnt have gotten them...in the second highest medical cost market in the country. 5 years we bill $9 million with a staff of 12.

Guess what. There are winners and there are losers. Only you can decide how much you'll sacrifice to be a winner, and Im sure as hell going to fight to have what I earned not taken away.


First of all, the "I couldn't make it so no one else can" comment is very much NOT what I was saying. I was stating that the entrepreneurial class is not universally accessible. SOME can make it, but not all.

Since we're doing the Reader's Digest versions of our tales, I'll take a crack at summarizing yours: "I'm from a middle-class white family and enjoyed middle-class white male privileges that gave me advantages that women and minorities generally don't have to support a course of action that I tout as the universal solution while refusing to acknowledge that I actively am against giving everyone an equal opportunity to make the attempt." The funny thing is, your story more supports my take on things than your "if I can do it, EVERYONE can" stance.


Read my lips: it IS accessible to all. Access doesnt guarantee success.

And your Readers Digest version is dead wrong. My family was poor and I had no privileges. The whining about women and minorities is an outright lie and you can just look to Washington to see that.  And if you can somehow interpret anything I said as giving equal opportunity you need to go back to reading comprehension 101. What I said is that opporunity is there for anyone willing and with the skills to capitalize on it.

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RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 7:41:01 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
Status: offline 		So Marc I take it You do not think much of the general level of Justice in this country.Do you believe the govt does a poor job in collecting taxes?Perhaps you feel the National Parks system is poorly run?
The FBI,The Secret Service...Social Security(as far as I know recipients receive their checks on time every time)...shall I go on.

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RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 7:47:08 PM   
penandknife


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Joined: 10/19/2008
Status: offline 		"IS accessable to all" =/= "there for anyone willing and with the skills to capitalize on it". Not only did you contradict yourself, but skills come at a price. The ability to pay those prices is very much dependant on economic and social status.

Now, as to the women and minorities in Washington argument:

http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/minority_senators.htm Notice that's a historical list, and that there are currently 100 senators? Even if those were all active senators, that's not a ratio that reflects the actual composition of the American populace.

http://senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/women_senators.htm Ditto historical list and non-representative ratio.

The House of Representatives isn't any better.

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RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 7:53:12 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b.

The notion that the government is capable of actually ensuring that all of its citizens receive health care especially in a costly (huh?  I presume you mean economical) and efficient manner.  Any honest study of the history of government should disabuse anyone of the notion that the government is capable of doing anything in a economical and efficient manner.   


Why is it we readily accept the government to be our protector from other countries, terrorists, etc. but don't believe them capable in other matters?

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RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 7:54:34 PM   
MarsBonfire


Posts: 1034
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline 		You know, I love books. I revere them. There have been times when I have literally snatched them out of burning piles that some religious nuts were setting, because they thought they were harmful to young minds. So please, keep this in mind when I say:

If it were up to me, I would turn every last copy of Horatio Alger's crap to ashes in a heartbeat. That bunch of  shit has probably done more to harm the human soul than any number of Mein Kampfs, or Turner Diaries or Gor Novels combined. The idea that you could somehow find a nickel in the street and parlay it into a multi-national corperation that makes you a millionare is just the cruelest of fantasies. No one has ever actually done it. The only instance that comes close is a Powerball winner in Michigan who bought a ticket with a dollar they found under a Coke machine.

Honestly, what are the odds?

Want to start a business these days? Be prepared for it to fail. Three out of four small businesses do. When they die, they take the propietor's savings, and any chance of ever trying to start another, down the tubes with it. The GOP enacted laws back in the early days of the Bush era that made it far more difficult to declare bankruptcy. So, if you go into debt, trying to start a small business, you're never getting out!

So why even try, if the deck has been so thuroughly stacked against you?

Thanks again, GOP!

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RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 7:59:13 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

What I meant was that health care policies are determined by people who have their profits in mind when they make key decisions, not the general good of the public. Since I'm not innocent enough (anymore) to believe that people in power are genuinely interested in anything but keeping that power to any real degree, I would prefer to have someone making those decisions who felt their job was staked on making the right decision by the public than making that decision based on their profit margin.

While I won’t deny that the profit motive is one of the factors that governs people's decision making it is not the only one.  To believe otherwise is to demean people.  I know my doctor genuinely cares about his patients (that’s why he’s my doctor) and I have no doubt that many others do as well.  In the end, I’d rather have those decisions being made by someone who knows me, not some government bureaucrat who’s never even heard of me.
quote:

Quibble point: It's not even the poorest anymore. Yes, the system is taxed by the poorest, but it's the growing segment of lower middle class families that are creating the most new demand for government-funded health care.

They are creating a demand for health care, not government funded health care necessarily.  That is a proposed "solution" that some are advocating. 
quote:

I don't think this is a genuinely solvable problem, unfortunately. Capitalism depends on creating supply and demand, and people by nature want to generate as much profit for their efforts as possible. As long as withholding supply generates the highest margin, you're just not going to convince anyone to increase supply and satisfy the demand at the cost of their margins. No matter how I turn this problem over in my head, there's just no good solution given the current systems.

Withholding supply to increase profits only works when you have a captive market that needs (as opposed to desiring) a service or commodity.  In a free market if, company X withholds supply then that just leaves the market open for companies Y and Z.  In a captive market withholding supply of a desired (as opposed to needed) commodity or service simply means people won’t buy it. 
You are quite correct that this is ultimately not a solvable problem.  Too often in politics (indeed, in all aspects of life) there are no solutions, only trade offs.  The problem is in deciding which trade offs we as a society can live with.
quote:

Oh man, I could go for a bonfire on the beach right about now.


Well that’s something we can agree on.  A roaring bonfire, a bottle of wine, perhaps a doobie or two, and the company of good friend – one of the finer things in life.

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RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 8:01:19 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

  They should be forced to take care of strangers in the name of social equality!     


Yes that would truly be horrible.

Imagine the chaos if we ever had a society that took care of each other.

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RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 8:04:31 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b.

The notion that the government is capable of actually ensuring that all of its citizens receive health care especially in a costly (huh?  I presume you mean economical) and efficient manner.  Any honest study of the history of government should disabuse anyone of the notion that the government is capable of doing anything in a economical and efficient manner.   


Why is it we readily accept the government to be our protector from other countries, terrorists, etc. but don't believe them capable in other matters?

Ain't that the truth.....

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 8:19:13 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

So Marc I take it You do not think much of the general level of Justice in this country.


Considering that our prisons are bursting at the seems whilst crimes like murder and rape remain distressingly common… I’d have to say no, I don’t think much of the general level of justice in this country.

quote:

Do you believe the govt does a poor job in collecting taxes?


Now that’s another one I will grant.  Government has always done a bang up job of taking people’s money.

quote:

Perhaps you feel the National Parks system is poorly run?

I haven’t been to enough national parks to render a judgment on that but I do remember reading something about a national park spending millions to build a new public toilet that didn’t even run properly – that certainly doesn’t bode well.

quote:

The FBI,The Secret Service...Social Security(as far as I know recipients receive their checks on time every


The FBI?  Aren’t they the one’s who have been tapping people’s phone lines with out a warrant and creating files on such well known dangerous people like John Lennon?

The Secret service, of course, has caught every counterfeiter and had never let a President get shot.  As for social security, well, it doesn’t surprise me that government does a good job in giving other people’s money away.  Got to get those votes somehow.

Look, I’m not saying that every government agency is a total fuck up.  What I am saying is that since government is concentrated power it naturally becomes corrupt and inefficient.  Nor am I saying that government doesn’t have its legitimate functions but I am saying that in many (if not most) cases, the private sector – in a genuine free market – can do a better job.

As far as I’m concerned government exists to pave our roads, deliver the mail, lock up the bad guys, and defend the nation.

And I’m not even sure about deliver the mail.

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RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 8:22:44 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Why is it we readily accept the government to be our protector from other countries, terrorists, etc. but don't believe them capable in other matters?


Because defending the nation is one of the legitamate functions of government which does not mean that they are doing a good job of it.  Do you think the government has been doing a good job of engaing the terrorists lately?

Oh my God, Terroists from Afghanistan are bombing us!  Quick!  Let's invade Iraq! 

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RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 8:29:09 PM   
penandknife


Posts: 28
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Status: offline 		Hee. I agree with a lot of what you're saying here. The government does not run things as well as a private sector business could for various reasons... but I would argue that the private sector costs as the structures and relationships between government and private sector business stands are too high and create too much class division to be dependable as a general public solution. When it comes to things like mail delivery and health care, something is far and away better than nothing.

Hell, I'd be dead right now from cervical cancer if it weren't for government subsidised health care... so don't even get me started on proposed cuts to Planned Parenthood and other womens health clinics! ;)

And with that, I'm done for the night. Now that the fruits of my loins are a-bed, it's time to get some more work done!

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RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 8:34:14 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Yes that would truly be horrible.

Imagine the chaos if we ever had a society that took care of each other.


We do have a society where people take care of each other.  Family and friends help each other out all the time.  Imagine if we had a society where only the government decided who got help? 

You can pat yourself for being a good person because you demand that the government act as our moral enforcers (that is, your idea of morality) but it reamins so much theoretical bullshit.  I perfer to help those around me and I'll let the rest of the world worry about itself.  If everybody did that, we wouldn't even need the idea that government has to be our nanny.

Edited to add: and don't forget the numerous charities that help people who are complete strangers.  After Katrina hit, thousands of people headed south to help while millions more donated supplies and money.  Meanwhile, the government agency tasked to help - FEMA - spent most of it's time standing around with it's thumbs up it ass.


< Message edited by Marc2b -- 3/30/2009 9:11:56 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: McCain supports Palin for president ... sort of - 3/30/2009 8:50:58 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Why is it we readily accept the government to be our protector from other countries, terrorists, etc. but don't believe them capable in other matters?


Because defending the nation is one of the legitamate functions of government which does not mean that they are doing a good job of it.  Do you think the government has been doing a good job of engaing the terrorists lately?

Oh my God, Terroists from Afghanistan are bombing us!  Quick!  Let's invade Iraq! 


I'm not talking about a particular administration in power but government in general.

And if defense is a legitimate function of government then why isn't health care?

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