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RE: Irritated by unrealistic criteriae - 1/28/2006 3:43:32 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressSassy66
I have to agree.Everyday,every session,every book you read,anything you do, can be a learning experience.I admit there are some things I have never even heard of in the BDSM world. I also admit I cant wait to learn about them.


Maybe it's not precisely the claim that all these younger folk could be wise beyond their years that annoys me, maybe its the arrogance they exhibit about it.

The other day when KittenWithaTwist questioned the Apollonian Creed I pretty much thought that went the limit. I mean sure questioning authority is great but it has its limitations - I think it should go hand in hand with the ability to form a truly cogent argument in opposition to a given viewpoint. Tearing something down just for the thrill of the nihilistic pleasure in doing so seems somewhat pointless unless you have something to offer in its place.

Ever try to reason with a two year old? Do you know how they can ask "Why?" incessantly? "Why?" "Why?" "Why?" "Why?" "Why?" "Why?"...Well, at some stage it's fair to note that the "Why" Game is rather pointless. You can helpfully suggest to the kid that s/he should formulate a more meaningful question in terms they might actually understand. This happens pretty much around the same time that a kid asks you why the sky is blue and you are explaining some things in terms of physics and activities of light in the atmosphere that you catch on that the kid could not possibly understand the answer you are providing. It's something to do with lack of knowledge, lack of experience, etc. The "Why?" Game is just an early go at tearing you down with an inane question that has no real meaning to the child.

So in place of the Apollonian Creed KittenWithaTwist offered up the united philosophies of constant change and winging it. It strikes me that the real disagreement could break down to a mere argument in semantics, but to take her at word her ideas seemed a rather poor replacement for the ancient wisdom provided in the Apollonian Creed. To the extent that one is always learning new things and that new knowledge might bring about some degree of change I can agree with her; to the extent that such learning brings about so much new understanding that it's actually impossible to know oneself to any significant degree I have to disagree with her view. She even contradicts herself further down in her argument with this devastating phrase "...keep in mind your own personality and be true to it..." How does one do that without self-knowledge as a starting point? Maybe I misunderstood her point...still, it seemed pretty clear she wanted to knock down the Apollonian Creed. Most of us responding to her post took it that way.

Careful with that axe, KittenWithaTwist!

...

For no particular reason I am reminded how Shakespeare puts wisdom into the mouth of old and doddering Polonius as he gives advice to Laertes at his son's leave-taking in the play "Hamlet." You know, it's the old trick where true wisdom is the voice of an apparent fool. Anyway, here it is:

Yet here, Laertes! aboard, aboard, for shame!
The wind sits in the shoulder of your sail,
And you are stay'd for. There; my blessing with thee!
And these few precepts in thy memory
See thou character. Give thy thoughts no tongue,
Nor any unproportioned thought his act.
Be thou familiar, but by no means vulgar.
Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried,
Grapple them to thy soul with hoops of steel;
But do not dull thy palm with entertainment
Of each new-hatch'd, unfledged comrade. Beware
Of entrance to a quarrel, but being in,
Bear't that the opposed may beware of thee.
Give every man thy ear, but few thy voice;
Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.
Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy,
But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy;
For the apparel oft proclaims the man,
And they in France of the best rank and station
Are of a most select and generous chief in that.
Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
This above all: to thine ownself be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell: my blessing season this in thee!

...

So yeah, Shakespeare seems to want you to think Polonius is an idiot - Hamlet certainly does. But is he really an idiot? It's not possible that some real wisdom is stored up in the words of this famous character?

Things are often not as they seem. The young might be wise, but perhaps they are more arrogant than is seemly for their years. The old might be more foolish than seems fair, but you'd be surprised at the full measure of the courses taught at the School of Hard Knocks. One should never underestimate knowledge gained through experience. Again, "Pathemata mathemata."

Maybe a little more humility might suit us all.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Irritated by unrealistic criteriae - 1/28/2006 4:37:18 AM   
bear372217355


Posts: 94
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Well said Chaingang.

i'm not allowed to post, my owners wishes, but in this case i could not resist the urge. i will pay for this later, i'm sure.

There have been many well thought out points made, as well as a few brain farts, but with all that has been said has anyone's mind set changed or have we just galvinized the the battle lines.

Lets try a different perspective.

On age, from my experience with my Mistress (Lady Elizabeth), i have learned that age and experience lend little to ones enjoyment of another. It is more the willingness to grow and experience together that is the greatest offering as apposed to enterring a relationship with lifestyle experience. Learning and gaining experience together is often more rewarding. Mi'Lady is niether old, nor young, experienced or novice. She is who she is. An inquizitive woman, who wants to learn and grow, not unlike myself.

No one knows the true meaning or the best ways of inflicting or enjoying decadent pleasures. All is merely in the eyes of the beholder. The young bring fresh innovative ideas to the fold, the older generations bring tried and true methods. Experience is a mute point, learning and growing is the point. Stop that from taking place and you are no different then the detracters of our lifestyle. Old or young, who cares , it's when you stop learning that is the true tragedy. Age has less to do with experience then the colour of ones hair.

On stereotypes, i love the vision of the iconic Domme, but i am not so wrapped up in my fantasies that i fail to realize that the iconic image can be applied to any body type, complete with lumps, bumps and scars. As easily as changing the hair colour of the vision in my head. There is no lack of depth to the extent of our fantasy life, only in the minds of those around us. That's not a generalization, it's a fact. No matter how deep you think you are, if you are repulsed by or attracted to a certain body type or what have you, you're not shallow, you're human. Sorry to break that to you.

Whether the OP was written to incite discussion or it was the frustrated rant of someone yerning for dark pleasure, it has drawn out some of the best and worst in us. i read each subsiquent post with interest as this thread ran the gambit of thought. It struck me though, that everyone has strong feelings and ideas of what the lifestyle embodies or how it applies or should apply. This is healthy. Difference in opinion and the expression of those differences is how we learn from one another. Take a step back and look at the distinct tones and perspectives of one another and cherish the diversity, not attack it. Love and let love, live and let live.


Someone mentioned tequila at one point, and to that i must ask, can i please have the worm?

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RE: Irritated by unrealistic criteriae - 1/28/2006 5:25:36 AM   
MHOO314


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quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

Being that I'm in the 20-somethings set and thus know everything, I need to make a comment on the idea that age = experience.

I believe that age = the potential for more experience, but that the idea that because someone is older they automatically know more about a given subject is flawed.



I believe we need to make some very real distinctions between some key areas that seem to be for lack of a better phrase here "mixed metaphors"---

Age
Education
Experience
Maturity
Wisdom


No one in their right mind can argue that an older person simply by virute of age has not had:

More days of working
More time to go to the bathroom
More jobs
More meals
More time spent listening to news reports
More inhalations and exhalations
Its the fact that sheer age increases the numbers

No one in their right mind should argue that AGE has anything to do with education.

Geniuses often graduate high school at 8,9,10 (hush Chaingang, I'm getting there)
People today are going back to school at 60, 70 and 80--

quote:

For example, I know a great deal about clothing in Ireland in the 9th century. It's a hobby of mine. I would put money on the fact that I know more about this subject that -many- people much older than me. I have more experience recreating it, and more experience wearing it. Am I more experienced at being alive? Nope. Do I know more overall? Nah. In that one area, though, do I have a claim on more experience than many people older than me? Most certainly.


That is education--and practice that comes from the use of the education. That can happen at any age--My Unmentionable is the youngest certified horse massage therapist in the state of NC--is she educated? Yep-- in that chosen field


Here is where the rub seems to start---Experience---we mistake the amount or types of experiences and equate it with MORE--it's not--its different--I would argue that age still has the ability to have More experiences simply by virute of age---By the time perverseangelic is My age, she will have made a gizillion times more Irish wear than she has now---but to say that because she knows that intimately does not mean she is MORE experienced than My Unmentionable who rides dressage--now if they BOTH had an interest in Irish clothing--at this moment by virtue of age, perverse would have MORE experience---but because she has that interest and Mine loves Dressage---does not mean either has More experience--they have different experiences---neither of which necessarily leads to maturity or wisdom

quote:

Having been alive more years than I've been gives you the oportunity to have learned more than I have. Overall, and in most circumstances, I figure someone double my age has more general knowledge and experience. However, general knowledge and experience doesn't mean the same thing as knowledge of a spesific area. If we've studied more, or been doing it longer, we know more. Regardless of the relative ages of people invovled. I know more than someone new to BDSM, even if that person knows more than I do about the world in general.

It's frustrating to me, because if young people state that they know a lot about something, they are often jumped on as claiming to know everything. Sometimes, we -are- just asserting that we know about a spesific thing, and not saying we know the world better than someone who's been in it more.



Knowledge does not equate to maturity. Maturity is the ability to make use of the experience and education to make an intelligent decision--that only comes when the mind and body are at the capability to do that---is that age specific? No--some may not have the have the capability to make a decision based on those two factors. ( one would argue though that a two year old does not have the ability to make SOME decisions---correct, neither does a 40 something severe mentally handicapped adult)---So in the example above---perverse (assume for debate sake)---does not know anything about horses---knowledge and experience tells her she cannot simply go saddle and ride--My UM says the same about making an Irish costume. yet Maturity can come at any age---as long as one learns form ones "lessons" whatever those lessons may be. Maturity can also change at any given time in a life.

quote:

How does one do that without self-knowledge as a starting point? --quoted from Chaingang


ahhh Wisdom---borne from experience, education, maturity--note I did not say age--age is a multiplier--but what ChainGang said is very very right on--for all ages
but self knowledge can happen at any age--however, one would tend to believe that is a result of much education ( education=learnings from something--formal, informal, or lessons learned), a bit of age (I did not specify here what "a bit" is), experience, and maturity.

IMHO, age is a multiplier and in no way guarantees more experience, more education, more maturity or more wisdom---it DOES guarantee more opportunities---missed or taken--by virtue of numbers----

so my response is to argue:

quote:

Maybe it's not precisely the claim that all these younger folk could be wise beyond their years that annoys me, maybe its the arrogance they exhibit about it.


What the hell have you done with it or about it?

quote:

Having been alive more years than I've been gives you the oportunity to have learned more than I have. Overall, and in most circumstances, I figure someone double my age has more general knowledge and experience.


What the hell have they done with it or about it?

That is where the question should lie, not in the chest beating, of I'm younger, I'm older--

I am different--You are different---I have lived more years, that does not mean I am older, wiser, smarter, You have lived few years--it does not mean you are wet behind the ears.

We are different--- we can learn from each other.

I am not flaming either of you, it just happens that you both had more complete responses of My preference to use as examples.








< Message edited by MHOO314 -- 1/28/2006 5:30:55 AM >

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RE: Irritated by unrealistic criteriae - 1/28/2006 5:33:46 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		I tend to feel that experience can be classed as Raw Experience (what you have experienced through your life) and Educated Exoerience (Where you take your experiences and deliberately learn what they have taught you which means using a variety of educational facilities to enhance your oe some of your experiences).

E.G. I remain isolated from my local BDSM and Gorean Communities but have a kajira. Over several years I have gained experience in the handling of my slave. (Raw Experience). I then set about learning all I can about other areas of the lifestyle and slave handling for my Peers in the Gorean Community as well as general information in places such as the forums in CM. (Educated Experience because I have enhanced my experience with deliberate learning).

< Message edited by IronBear -- 1/28/2006 5:34:26 AM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Irritated by unrealistic criteriae - 1/28/2006 5:38:49 AM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

I tend to feel that experience can be classed as Raw Experience (what you have experienced through your life) and Educated Exoerience (Where you take your experiences and deliberately learn what they have taught you which means using a variety of educational facilities to enhance your oe some of your experiences).





I like that thought, some will expand the raw, some will repeat it--others will become educated about their experiences--- that could mean, as you stated a deeper study or simply remembering the next time that if the light bill isn't paid, its going to get dark.


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RE: Irritated by unrealistic criteriae - 1/28/2006 6:12:18 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
It's frustrating to me, because if young people state that they know a lot about something, they are often jumped on as claiming to know everything. Sometimes, we -are- just asserting that we know about a spesific thing, and not saying we know the world better than someone who's been in it more.


This is a very good point. "The Scene" is so broad and contains so much that no one can really know all or most of it. This means that anyone we meet may know more about a particular aspect than we know.

I've been doing this for a while and I'm still learning

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RE: Irritated by unrealistic criteriae - 1/28/2006 7:01:53 AM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bear372217355

Well said Chaingang.

i'm not allowed to post, my owners wishes, but in this case i could not resist the urge. i will pay for this later, i'm sure.


Ruh roh raggy.
I hope it was worth it.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
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RE: Irritated by unrealistic criteriae - 1/28/2006 7:11:17 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang
Tearing something down just for the thrill of the nihilistic pleasure in doing so seems somewhat pointless unless you have something to offer in its place.

Maybe a little more humility might suit us all.

I agree. I'm still having trouble wondering how, if this is truly how you claim to feel about all this, this relates to your ORIGINAL issues that you posted with me- about somehow not knowing anythinga bout being a slave because I obey in doing mundane tasks, and then something related to being a whore, and then something about how they don't have anything to do with them.

You never addressed those points at all and I really fail to see how they relate to any of your reasoning here. You sound like you're working up a nice reasonable justification for an initial emotional outburst.

I'm not saying I don't believe that this is how you feel. I'm saying I doubt it's what you were consciously thinking and striving for on Friday afternoon.


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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Irritated by unrealistic criteriae - 1/28/2006 7:29:44 AM   
siamsa24


Posts: 2426
Joined: 2/2/2004
Status: offline 		I get upset about the age stereotypes too. I get it all the time at my job "you are too young to do this" "why are you in position x when these older people are under you?"
There is a reason that I have the job that I do, I am better qualified and know more about the compnay then the people under me. I don't get a bug up my ass about it, but the older people do. God forbid that a young person be in a position of authority and be in charge of a crew of people and be damn good at it. There will always be young people who are more successful, know more about a particular topic, or have more experience in a particular area then an older person, GET OVER IT.


By the way, this isn't directed at anyone in particular, I just hit FastReply

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RE: Irritated by unrealistic criteriae - 1/28/2006 9:52:19 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline 		MHOO--
I think your points were well said, and actually clarified what I was trying to say.

I chose not to deal with maturity at -all- because that's such a muddy area.

For me, experience is this-"Active participation in events or activities, leading to the accumulation of knowledge or skill" and that was the way I was using it. I do think that the amount of experience in a given area correlates very strongly with one's skill and ability in that area, but I'm not sure that one's experience in an area makes any comment on the individual's maturity.

What I'm trying to say is that experience in a given feild makes one more skilled and more knowlegedable in that field (in general and IMHO, of course) but it doesn't make a comment about general maturity or skill and experience in any other feild.

Also, to say one is experienced NOW doesn't mean one won't be more experienced LATER. I know a lot about 9th century Irish dress now. How much will I know in 10 years? Well, enough to bore you silly.

Also, maybe it's just that I'm associating with the wrong 20-somethings, but I don't find that insufferable arrogance mentioned in everyone. I -do- find it in some, of course, but I'm equally likely to find it in someone twice my age.

Perhaps with some of us, enjoyment in knowledge comes accross as arrogance? I -really- enjoy knowing things, and I get great pleasure out of being able to share knowlege, both by giving it and by learning it. I think that sometimes my excitement about knowing something comes accross as arrogance. It's the librarian gene. Knowledge gets me hot.

Also, why is it worse for a 20 year old to be arrogant than a 40 year old? If a 20 year old IS experienced and DOES have the knowledge to back up what he/she is saying why is that indivuals arrogance worse than someone who is 40? I don't like being condecended to by -anyone- but I don't think that it should be worse at one age than at another. Especially if the individual doing the condecending has the knowledge to back him/herself up.

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RE: Irritated by unrealistic criteriae - 1/28/2006 10:13:07 AM   
IronBear


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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

why is it worse for a 20 year old to be arrogant than a 40 year old?



Based only on my observations over the last decade in the areas where security tends to wander, I've seen an awful lot of arrogant people with something like a 50/50 mix between the youth and the older male members of our society. Many of both age groups were quite rude too. The socio economic grouping was pretty well spread was basically even from unemployed and living on or about the poverty line to thr rich and living in luxury with occupations including medicine and law. The biggest difference between the yoiunger group anf the older ones was that the older ones (and in particular those who are used to playing God and who dont recognise any as being intelligent unless they are of the same profession, i.e. Medical Professionals and Legal Professionals), was that the older group were able to treat you with distane and pull the superiority stunt (that always pissed me off), where as the younger group tended to be more agressive and threatening. This even with the educated youngsters is probably as much due to an overdose of testosterone as it was to lack of experience in the game of life.

Thus in answer the partial quote I have used, those who are argessive and threatening give the impression of physical violence which only too often does eventuate.

_____________________________

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Irritated by unrealistic criteriae - 1/28/2006 10:26:33 AM   
seaturtle50


Posts: 382
Joined: 12/28/2005
Status: offline 		It seems that when i was "young" there was a veil shrouding my outlook. Over time it has been and is lifted, little by little. i was at the time, completely unaware of the veil.

st50

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RE: Irritated by unrealistic criteriae - 1/28/2006 11:07:47 AM   
la90066


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Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: siamsa24

I get upset about the age stereotypes too.




Oh, that's just your AGE talking, hun... You'll understand it more when you're older, dear.


hee hee hee (I'M KIDDING... I'M KIIIIIIIIIIIDDING!!!)


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RE: Irritated by stereotypes...then caught myself doing... - 1/28/2006 11:45:38 AM   
Petruchio


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quote:

Well...I'll be damned...someone woke up without a blow job this morning.


That happens, mist. Please contact me for details about how that can be corrected.

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RE: Irritated by stereotypes...then caught myself doing... - 1/28/2006 2:44:59 PM   
IrishMist


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Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Petruchio

quote:

Well...I'll be damned...someone woke up without a blow job this morning.


That happens, mist. Please contact me for details about how that can be corrected.



LMAO Petruchio...do you happen to have a step by step manual?


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RE: Irritated by stereotypes...then caught myself doing... - 1/28/2006 2:45:08 PM   
truesub4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Petruchio

quote:

Well...I'll be damned...someone woke up without a blow job this morning.


That happens, mist. Please contact me for details about how that can be corrected.



Damn... getting hungry now... LOL

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Irritated by stereotypes...then caught myself doing... - 1/28/2006 3:17:02 PM   
Petruchio


Posts: 1615
Joined: 2/6/2005
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quote:

LMAO Petruchio...do you happen to have a step by step manual?


Irish, naturally I prefer oral to manual stimulation any time.
Lessons start at 6p SHARP and I DO give oral exams!

quote:

Damn... getting hungry now... LOL


trusub, you are merely reconfirming what I have long suspected! (grinning ear to ear)

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RE: Irritated by unrealistic criteriae - 1/28/2006 3:21:07 PM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314
IMHO, age is a multiplier and in no way guarantees more experience, more education, more maturity or more wisdom---it DOES guarantee more opportunities---missed or taken--by virtue of numbers----


I think this is a very useful idea. Good on you, MHOO314.

And I agree with perverseangelic that maturity is a very muddy zone. It's very hard to quantify or assess in any meaningful way that isn't pointedly subjective.

If we equate the two terms, as MHOO314 does above, we lose some distinctions. Maturity by definition really seems to have more to do with biological development rather than any emotional or mental kind. Wisdom by definition seems to relate more directly to insight of various kinds, so it's probably more useful in this context.

quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
Also, why is it worse for a 20 year old to be arrogant than a 40 year old?...I don't like being condecended to by -anyone- but I don't think that it should be worse at one age than at another. Especially if the individual doing the condecending has the knowledge to back him/herself up.


I'm not trying to be condescending - honestly not. I was just noting a kind of certainty, arrogance, and petulance that seems to occur more regularly in relation to some of the younger, more omnipresent voices here. They can do as they please - they owe nothing to me. In turn I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

My point all along has been that we are all of us on a path toward greater learning. I have even argued that those older than me have more experience and most likely some things to teach me - however, it's not impossible that a younger person might teach me something too, just less likely in my view. Personally, I still think age = experience = wisdom. Is it a gross generalization? Sure. Is it often true? Yes, more of often than not.

When precisely did generalities become a bad thing? If someone proves themselves the exception to the rule, that's cool with me. The rule still holds.

BTW, I looked at your pics, perverseangelic - you seem as wise as Yoda to me.




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RE: Irritated by stereotypes...then caught myself doing... - 1/28/2006 3:31:09 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Irish, naturally I prefer oral to manual stimulation any time.
Lessons start at 6p SHARP and I DO give oral exams!


Well hot dayum..........sign me up



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RE: Irritated by unrealistic criteriae - 1/28/2006 3:31:12 PM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		My deepest thanks to ALL the posts, this one made Me think, walk away, think and think and think again----however

IrishMist and Petruchio will stay after school.

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Profile   Post #: 100
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