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Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 8:04:12 AM

subtee

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"I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" Dr. Norm GeislerDetails:
In his presentation, Geisler will examine what the universe shows us about God, why the New Testament is extremely accurate, and why it takes more faith to believe that God doesn't exist.

Dr. Norman Geisler is the author or co-author of some 70 books and hundreds of articles. He has taught theology, philosophy, and apologetics on the college or graduate level for 50 years. He has spoken or debated in some 26 countries on six continents. He has a B.A, M.A., Th.B., and Ph.D (in philosophy). He maintains an active writing, speaking, and lecturing ministry across the country. (www.normangeisler.net) ~My brother wants me to go with his family to hear this dude tonight. My brother is an excellent man and a born-again Christian. I'm not going. Dr. Geisler has been a leader in the defense of the Inerrancy of the Bible and was a founder of the International Council on Biblical Inerrancy which produced the famous “Chicago Statement” (1978) that has been a standard in the field ever since. He also was a witness in defense of teaching creation along side of evolution in the public schools at the famous “Scopes Two” trial in Little Rock, Arkansas in 1981. ~ What do you know about the famous "Chicago Statement" and the "Scopes Two" trial? (Yes, I can google, I'm interested in personal perspectives. And also your perspective on this statement: The way one answers the question, "Is there a God?" defines a life.

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 8:11:47 AM

kittinSol

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It's true: each person has their own answer, if they have asked themselves the question.

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 8:24:23 AM

FullCircle

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With all the questions out there we always pick the ones that are impossible to answer one way or another. Even if you could prove god didn't exist no good would come of so it's far better to prove no religion has the first clue about the desires of a possible god because at least that way you can halt some people doing some things in their name, or could you? Probably no because ignorant people would always exist and ignore the questions let alone the answers.

I'm no expert on theology but let us review the factitions:

1) God supposedly wants everyone to have free will but has written various instruction books as to how your free will should be used.
2) God creates all these emotions and needs to temp us with to prove our worthiness. I know I shall make them greedy but then say you can't be greedy, I'm a genius in my devious. What is the point in that if he wants a group of non greedy people in heaven he could have just saved time by making humanity not greedy. Why the games if you have creation in the palm of your hand and you need to know the time then create a watch, seems pretty straightforward to lowly me. Except people need to feel they've achieved something in life.
3) I'm a bit sketchy on the need for both an afterlife and a life can't we just have one or the other and save on the existence quota? Create X number of non greedy people to your specification and populate paradise with these people and you won’t need to bother with the earth testing ground.
4) When I review all the common themes from religion they seem so earthly in their proclamations. Since people in heaven aren’t subject to the earth bound needs; I assume killing people in heaven is impossible but for some reason we need to learn this self restraint of not killing people before we get there.

I admit this above is related to the one religion I've grown up with and have limited experience of.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 3/31/2009 9:01:01 AM >

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 8:43:17 AM

subtee

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I'm sorry, would you clarify your post for me? Are you saying the questions are impossible? I'm asking for opinions, which, it seems to me are possible on all things.

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 8:53:25 AM

FullCircle

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The problem is opinion is no substitute for facts and theology has no facts only interpretations. My opinion of this vs. someone telling me I misunderstood the correct message and actually it's all about this. It creates this whole circular debate in which nothing ever gets established because being an expert on God is the easiest job in the world, it requires no scientific verification of any kind.
Any opinion can stand if I say god is a pink hippo and loads of people agree with me then I'm right.

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 9:04:45 AM

aravain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
The way one answers the question, "Is there a God?" defines a life.

Too true... This is why I refuse to answer 'is there a god?' with a straight answer. I don't *WANT* it to define my life.

I don't know much about the Chicago Statement or Scopes Two, to be honest. Just that they exist. I should probably go google them XD

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 9:07:49 AM

sappatoti

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Without having read any of Dr. Geisler's works, I'd agree with him that it would take a lot more faith to be an atheist.

Back when Pintos, Vegas, and Gremlins ruled college campus parking lots I was studying physics. It's a great scientific discipline that goes to lengths in observing how things act and react. But, it could never tell anyone why. Sure, physicists could hypothesize on the "why" but as to producing results to back those hypotheses up, well... the discipline just isn't quite there yet. Observing and hypothesizing on "cause and effect" is helpful, but only one part of the equation of understanding life.

That's where my other studies of philosophy and religion came in. Those studies provided the change in mindset that allowed me to open my curiosity towards thinking in non-empirical disciplines. There is no right or wrong way of philosophizing; only that you let your mind go and simply think. With lots of thought... aided by copious amounts of the nearby campus pub's offerings... I concluded that there is some higher, as yet undefined reason... or power... or something that's at work here.

Maybe studying the quantum side of things might bring more empirical, observable data to go towards answering the question of "why." But I also think that the more scientists start studying quantum relationships, an exponentially larger number of unknowns will be uncovered, leading to even more questions of "why."

For me, anyway, faith that something more than us exists keeps me going.

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 9:12:02 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

And also your perspective on this statement: The way one answers the question, "Is there a God?" defines a life.

It speaks of how each person gravitates toward their purpose, and implies having the wrong answer to the question, makes the person 'bad', or wrong.

Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 3/31/2009 9:13:55 AM >

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 9:16:11 AM

FullCircle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sappatoti
Observing and hypothesizing on "cause and effect" is helpful, but only one part of the equation of understanding life.

quote:

Maybe studying the quantum side of things might bring more empirical, observable data to go towards answering the question of "why." But I also think that the more scientists start studying quantum relationships, an exponentially larger number of unknowns will be uncovered, leading to even more questions of "why."

quote:

For me, anyway, faith that something more than us exists keeps me going.

Relating to your last quote above in context with the previous two what degree of this power shaping your world gives you comfort if that’s the right word?

i.e. are you happy that it just put together the sequence of events that led to your existence or do you require it to take a view on the way you live your life and look after you when you are going through bad experiences?

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 9:20:38 AM

stella41b

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My main issue with Christianity as with the other Abrahamic religions is that they all exploit peoples' fears of mortality and death and through these fears seek to try and present illusion as the truth and dismiss the truth as mere illusion or superstition.

You see we fear what we do not know, what we do not understand, and what we cannot perceive. Since we cannot perceive any further we see the finality of death, a subject shrouded in taboo and mystery, and yet death is actually a process, not an ending. We cannot perceive this ending, which fascinates us as much as our sexuality does, and our ability to procreate and create new life. It is the fact that we understand from an early age that we have been procreated or created and are thus here temporarily and therefore mortal, as we get older we get closer to that ending we fear. It is those fears and our feelings and experiences which shape and influence how we live.

In the absence of knowledge all we have is faith and belief to support our own hypothesis of what is going to happen to us when we die. That faith and those beliefs are based on our experiences and our own perception of ourselves, our lives and our relationship with the world around us. What major religions seek to do is to gain control of our minds and our lives by trying to make out that our lives and our deaths are a shared experience, which they are not.

There is evidence of a spiritual world but the only evidence you will ever have to go on is only what lies between your fears and your experiences within your field or range of perception.

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 9:30:20 AM

FullCircle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
You see we fear what we do not know, what we do not understand, and what we cannot perceive. Since we cannot perceive any further we see the finality of death, a subject shrouded in taboo and mystery, and yet death is actually a process, not an ending. We cannot perceive this ending, which fascinates us as much as our sexuality does, and our ability to procreate and create new life.

If you can think back to how it was just before you existed then there is no logical reason to think the period of time after you existed will be any different from that. Confuses the situation if you had one of those previous life experiences but I don't remember being anyone else ever so I suppose I be destined for the eternity of nothingness since that is all I remember from before I was alive. To give people an idea: it's pitch black darkness, neither hot nor cold nor pleasurable nor painful with volume off. The advantage of a bleak view of death should be the impetus for nonstop life experience gathering exercise prior to it.

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 9:34:33 AM

UncleNasty

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The difficulty I have is the arrogance displayed by those who make claims of having or knowing the grand answers. This falls on both sides of the fence - belief or faith in a supreme AND atheists. I comfortable in knowing,and in admitting, that I don't have those answers.

When engaging with people in the discussion I can take a stance of either agnosticism or atheism, and do so depending on the position of the other party. When discussing with one of strong faith I typically adopt a more atheist position. I've found in taking an agnostic position they try to turn the debate into more of a competition, geared towards both "winning" and converting me. "Yes, their is a God, and that God is my God. Won't you join me in believing?" I find that particularly limiting.

With agnostics or atheists I'm more comfortable in the agnostic position. In my experience they have proven to be the more open minded, more interested in learning, more willing to allow others to have their own opinions, more open to havinig their own opinions changed through enlightened discussion.

Personally I pursue truth. Whether there is a God or not I believe truth has high value. I still experience some confusion in delineating between "my truth" and "the Truth," LOL, but I'm working on that.

Ultimately that question will be answered for me upon my death. In one scenario I'll know the answer, and in the other I won't.

Uncle Nasty

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 9:39:20 AM

subtee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's true: each person has their own answer, if they have asked themselves the question.

Hi kittin, do you think most or some don't ask themselves?

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 9:39:51 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
"I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" Dr. Norm Geisler

It is easy to be an atheist, a theist of the mono or poly persuasion, spiritually aware, or a religious nut. Some people are all of these at the same time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
Dr. Geisler has been a leader in the defense of the Inerrancy of the Bible

It is easy not to err when one leaves the truths out. Those are called "lies by omission".

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
He also was a witness in defense of teaching creation along side of evolution in the public schools

So, did he ever create anything replicably? If so, then by all means teach the appropriate science at university. (Does it require a cyclotron?)
Reciprocatively, do let's teach chemistry, physics, mathematics, German and Spanish, economics, geography and geology in church.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
~ What do you know about the famous "Chicago Statement" and the "Scopes Two" trial?

Nothing. Not interested!

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
The way one answers the question, "Is there a God?" defines a life.

Indeed? So does stepping out of bed with either the right or the left foot. (Or sliding out of bed head first, or simply falling out of the bed.)

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 9:43:58 AM

subtee

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Hi Sappa!

Do you find faith is an action or a state of mind, or something else?

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 9:55:34 AM

UncleNasty

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Teach sciences, et. al., in Churches? LOLOLOLOL.

I love it.

I have advocated for similar dynamic reciprocity. We see "believers" protesting and trying to shut down strip clubs, adult bookstores and the like. Turn about being fair play perhaps we should have strippers, bookstore proprietors and patrons picket outside of churches?

Uncle Nasty

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 10:09:54 AM

RCdc

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I do believe that religion be taught, not just christianity but all religions and spirituality just as much as I believe science should, or sexual health or pshe. I don't believe it should be done so to indoctrinate.

Do I believe in the inerrancy of biblical writings? Yes. But I don't believe that they are understood and therefore, misinterpreted.

I do not believe that the way one answers 'Is there a God' defines a life. To me, that is utter bullshit.

the.dark.

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 10:12:19 AM

subtee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

My main issue with Christianity as with the other Abrahamic religions is that they all exploit peoples' fears of mortality and death and through these fears seek to try and present illusion as the truth and dismiss the truth as mere illusion or superstition.

You see we fear what we do not know, what we do not understand, and what we cannot perceive. Since we cannot perceive any further we see the finality of death, a subject shrouded in taboo and mystery, and yet death is actually a process, not an ending. We cannot perceive this ending, which fascinates us as much as our sexuality does, and our ability to procreate and create new life. It is the fact that we understand from an early age that we have been procreated or created and are thus here temporarily and therefore mortal, as we get older we get closer to that ending we fear. It is those fears and our feelings and experiences which shape and influence how we live.

In the absence of knowledge all we have is faith and belief to support our own hypothesis of what is going to happen to us when we die. That faith and those beliefs are based on our experiences and our own perception of ourselves, our lives and our relationship with the world around us. What major religions seek to do is to gain control of our minds and our lives by trying to make out that our lives and our deaths are a shared experience, which they are not.

There is evidence of a spiritual world but the only evidence you will ever have to go on is only what lies between your fears and your experiences within your field or range of perception.

I don't know many religions that don't have as a central tenet the "what happens when we die" thing. Reincarnation is an answer, attaining Nirvana is an answer. Zarathushtra's cosmic conflict focuses on the after death part. It seems to me faith allows the faithful to not only envision, but believe in their "ending" and that gives them peace from fear. I have often envied my brother.

Do you think the question can be focused on life and living?

I don't believe that everything is binary, dualistic. For example, something can be hiding in plain sight. It is then both hiding, but also out in the open...

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 10:38:12 AM

subtee

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I'm gonna badly bungle this I bet, so if anyone can further explicate, please!
Chicago Statement 1978, (grossly paraphrased by subtee):

~God is Truth, scripture is God's witness to Himself

~Scripture is God's word, it's Authority, it's infallible, don't even question it.

~ You're gonna wreck it if you in any way limit it or disregard any of it, or relate it to any other concept of truth other than itself, and if you do that, bad shit is gonna happen both to you and to the Church.

There is much more than this to the Chicago Statement; please learn more if you feel like it.

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RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 10:41:47 AM

subtee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I do not believe that the way one answers 'Is there a God' defines a life. To me, that is utter bullshit.

the.dark.

Would you want to expound?

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