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RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 7:17:14 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Ridiculous. Nobody needs to smoke to survive. It's a luxury. If you can't give it up, you'd better find the dough to pay for it. Big deal.

And... don't take this badly, because it's not just you who's  been doing it, but your (and a few other posters') new found love for 'the poor' doesn't come across all that well. I'm sorry to have to say this, but after hearing you and a few others spew that dog-eats-dog Republican rhetoric that it's each man to himself, caring not one bit about the lack of health insurance that 'the poor' suffer from, arguing about 'personal responsbility' and deriding welfare, having to listen to the present sanctimonious whine about the increase on a product that kills is hard to stomach, to say the least.

Enough is enough, after all  .



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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 7:27:33 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheUtopian

quote:

Did I mention addiction? Did you address any of the questions I asked? Is ADHD a real affliction?

Now to address your inaccuracies.

1) It is addictive, the studies and research are there and support this. You can refuse to believe it, just like people refuse to believe that man actually made it to the moon.

2) Addictions can be overcome, it happens all the time. It takes more than willpower alone, and if you knew anything about addictions you would know it is a battle against your own mind.

3) As far as the boot camps, many convicts are smokers and go into no smoking facilities for onths to years, and on the day they are released they light up.

Now as to the tax, would you care to address any of the questions, or are you just posting to bait and flame?


Get over yourself. If you didn't get the facetious tone I'd say you're the one who needs to pay better attention.


Nah, would rather not get over myself, I am quite confident in what I know and do. As far as tone, and facetious, maybe you should look up those definitions and apply them correctly.

quote:


As to the addiction aspect of the post - I stand by it completely. I was surrounded by smokers in the bar business for over ten years, and every single smoker I've known on personal level who's quit successfully, has walked away straight up cold turkey. I don't buy the  '' I'm addicted...can't quit crap for second '' It's a load of crap. Period.


Oh I get it. You are one of those that refute scientific evidence unless you can actually see it. Guess you do not believe in atomic power either, eh? There are many methods out there to stop smoking, maybe you should research it or you can keep talking about something you obviously know nothing about.

quote:


To the taxes...  I'm on record in similar threads, not supporting them. But like I said, if one thing has to go, it might as well be smoking. And you answered your own question - The sugary foods/junk food is surely next. That's the kind misrepresentation you get when you're constantly tricked into electing the same type of politicians over and over.

- R


You did not address the questions, but that was expected.

Vices are usually things that people should not do at all, or not in excess. Apparently smoking is a vice. Usually society wants people to stop vices. If you tax a vice and then apply that money to an important program, then you really do not want that vice to go away, because it would stop funding this very special and important program. Any comments on that specifically?

Would have to find the stats again, but it showed (if memory serves me properly) that the majority of smokers were lower income wage earners. This means that the tax is being paid by lower income people, which have less money. Any comments about that?

Your last paragraph states your position is that you do not support the tax, but in this case since it is something you really dislike you do support the tax. Is that correct? If so, would that not mean that your principles and convictions are flexiable depending upon who is getting screwed by the government?

You will notice that I have tried to pull this back to the OP. If you do not wish to address these questions, I will understand.

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 7:27:48 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
If it kills, kitten, why doesn't Obama just ban it rather than seize it as a money-making opportunity for some imaginary charitable program of his. As has been pointed out a multitude of times in this thread now, it is scandalous for him to claim he's using his new found treasure to fund childrens' health care when the implied premise of this tax hike on the poor is to force them to behave in a manner that he dictates from his throne -  because if they actually do quit smoking that money won't be available "for the children" will it.

Its either a. He knows that smokers are addicts and cannot quit, and so he's being cruel to them through his confiscatory taxes or its b. He is misleading you about his plans to fund any kind of childrens program with the proceeds.





< Message edited by Sanity -- 4/2/2009 7:39:35 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 7:38:04 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


If it kills, kitten, why doesn't Obama just ban it rather than seize it as a money-making opportunity for some imaginary charitable program of his. As has been pointed out a multitude of times in this thread now, it is scandalous for him to claim he's using his new found treasure to fund childrens' health care when the implied premise of this tax hike on the poor is to force them to behave in a manner that he dictates from his throne -  because if they actually do quit smoking that money won't be available "for the children" will it.





"If,it kills" there are many things open for debate here Sanity....the harmful qualities of smoking aren't one of them.
As to why President Obama doesn't just ban the things.....well how do you think that would be recieved....should he do so by Royal Fiat...or would you suggest a more legal means of accomplishing this end.

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 7:41:44 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


I think Obama could do anything to certain people and they'd say they like it.

"Sin taxes"?

"Please sir, may I have another".

"Higher taxes on the poor"?

"The more the better, sir. We absolutely deserve to lied to, and treated like the shit that we are."
And conversely President Obama could do anything for the citizens of the U.S. and from some quarters still receive scathing criticism.....What exactley is your point?

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Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 7:42:25 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Its either a. He knows that smokers are addicts and cannot quit, and so he's being cruel to them through his confiscatory taxes or its b. He is misleading you about his plans to fund any kind of childrens program with the proceeds.



Better to fund than not to fund. When the numbers of smokers gradually fall (because they will), they'll find new things to tax. Like gas, and Hershey's bars  . Call me cruel, but I have zero sympathy for the smokers' plight.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 4/2/2009 7:43:19 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 7:47:54 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Its either a. He knows that smokers are addicts and cannot quit, and so he's being cruel to them through his confiscatory taxes or its b. He is misleading you about his plans to fund any kind of childrens program with the proceeds.



Better to fund than not to fund. When the numbers of smokers gradually fall (because they will), they'll find new things to tax. Like gas, and Hershey's bars  . Call me cruel, but I have zero sympathy for the smokers' plight.
Be careful Kittin, last I looked the U.S. was one of the few industrialized nations that smoking was still a growth industry in.Never underestimate the stupidity of Americans....

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 7:49:01 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Why is it that you can say things like that? So not fair  .

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 8:01:44 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Born in The U.S.A......ain't just a song by Bruce Springsteen .

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 8:03:19 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Yeah yeah, don't rub it in *puff puff*.

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 8:05:30 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		The whole "puff puff" thing I can do without.....Hoping yesterday was my last day "puffing".
well cigarettes anyway.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 8:05:31 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4uBe careful Kittin, last I looked the U.S. was one of the few industrialized nations that smoking was still a growth industry in.Never underestimate the stupidity of Americans....


When was the last you looked? 1964?


quote:

PRINCETON, NJ -- The percentage of U.S. adults saying they smoked cigarettes in the past week, now 21%, is similar to what Gallup found in 2007. However, it represents a decline from earlier this decade, when between 22% and 28% said they smoked, and is among the lowest figures Gallup has recorded in more than six decades of polling on tobacco use in America.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/109048/US-Smoking-Rate-Still-Coming-Down.aspx



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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 8:07:33 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Ain't just adults who smoke Sanity.....sad to say but that poll might not be the whole story.
New smokers are usually kids,underage and unlikely to be included in such a poll.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 8:09:11 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

The whole "puff puff" thing I can do without.....Hoping yesterday was my last day "puffing".
well cigarettes anyway.


I was thinking powder puff more than cancerette, Mike :-) .

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 8:54:07 AM   
CruelNUnsual


Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

You know...no matter how hard I try, I can't give up smoking.....because I never started!

The problem is that as they raise the tax to raise revenue,  enough people stop smoking to drop the actual revenue.  Standard "unintended consequences" scenario.   Happened with red light cameras too...they were supposed to pay for themselves from the fines they "delivered" but enough people stopped running red lights, so the cameras were turned off for lack of funds.

Static analysis at its finest....



Except it doesnt  happen with cigarettes that much. You'll get a few quitters and a many of the will fall off the wagon. Tax increases on booze and cigarettes are just about the surest revenue raisers there are.

And raising fines for DWI and similar offenses may be a good idea in and of itself, but its not a substantial revenue raiser unless the fine is confistacation of all of the assets of the offender. There just arent enough of them to pay for the spending.

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 9:56:32 AM   
LDRandAstarte


Posts: 504
Joined: 12/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

i'm saying that i don't appreciate people using it as a means to convince poor people that the President broke a campaign promise.  It's a huge stretch of the imagination to say so...but a convenient one nonetheless...if one has an agenda.


How is it a stretch of the imagination, Iron?  He promised not to raise ANY taxes on folks making less than $250K a year.  He has now broke that promise.  President Obama is not stupid; he knows who are smokers in this country.  He didn't care, he went ahead and levied an unfair tax on 20% of the population. 



If they are the lowest earners, maybe they should be spending that $2500.00/year groceries, the electric bill, etc, instead of carcinogens that are going to make them a burden on the health care system (ie; the rest of us)

NOTE: before you start, I smoked for 22 years. Quit first try, yes it was hard and unpleasant, but once my mind was made up to do so it was not imposable. As a "reformed smoker" I fully defend your right to smoke if you choose to do so. It is not illegal so go ahead if you want to. I am against the "know the truth" ads on TV, based on the equal opportunity idea, if you can bad mouth cigarettes in nationwide ad campaigns, they should be allowed to advertise too.
However, the choice is yours to smoke or quit!
If you don't like what you have to pay, Quit.


< Message edited by LDRandAstarte -- 4/2/2009 10:18:16 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 10:12:08 AM   
MsFlutter


Posts: 1305
Joined: 11/12/2008
From: East Coast
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Not only this... I am still searching for an article rather than a pdf bill or whatever that will prove this... but Oregan is considering requiring a priscription for tobacco products saying it needs to be monitored just as some cold medicines.  It was on the news here in KC.


you mentioned 'prescription' and I found this on my daily news grazing..
 
http://www.tdn.com/articles/2009/03/31/breaking_news/doc49d27a6bb9380412879822.txt
 
but THIS is interesting also

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/03/31/tobacco-hiv-drug.html

< Message edited by MsFlutter -- 4/2/2009 10:13:34 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 1:04:59 PM   
ArmoredOne


Posts: 243
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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 1:49:18 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		http://www.rr.com/news/politics/article/1310/7320109/House_approves_FDA_regulation_of_tobacco_products/100/

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... - 4/2/2009 1:56:40 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Funny thing about that Lockit,RJ Reynolds is up in arms over this.They see it as a ploy by Phillip Morris(major backer of the bill) as a way to solidify their rather large market share.
The rules governing new products and advertising would virtually guarantee...Phillip Morris maintains their dominant position.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 100
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