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RE: Radical Honesty - 4/3/2009 11:08:42 AM

Jeptha

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A couple of random reactions to what I've read thus far;

1) I don't think radical honesty necessarily means rudeness. You can be honest and still be considerate. I generally like manners, myself.

2) As has been pointed out, the honesty part is in regard to what you are thinking or feeling. It isn't automatically assumed that those perceptions are based on accurate information or that they are in some way the infallible truth of the matter. It is understood (or should be, seems to me) that they are subjective.

Further randomness;

3) I've wondered if it wouldn't be better if we could all read each other's thoughts at all times. We might become accustomed to complexity and appreciate civility the more for it.

4) I've been curious about group therapy models for a while now. I think this might be the kind of insulated environment that I'd be willing to try "radical honesty" out in.

5) I think that if I blurted out thoughts, they would not make much sense without context. But supplying context would require a lot of my listener. It would be like requiring my listener to become my therapist in some instances. That's too much to expect of the average Joe or Jane waiting for the bus.

6) Maybe #5, above, is just making excuses on my part.

It does make me curious about reading the guy's book.

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Post #: 61

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/3/2009 11:33:59 AM

DemonKia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

Thank you DemonKia...sometime i see it spelt wiitwd too...is that then a spelling mistake or does that mean something else?

Thank you, ranja . . . .

Yes, both WIIWD & WIITWD . .. . . . . I tend to not use acronyms for just this reason, the confusion about meaning, but on the other hand, lol, my fingers do get tired sometimes, I do get that occasional attack of laziness . . . . . lol

Best,
The Demon, Kia

(in reply to ranja)

Post #: 62

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/3/2009 11:36:47 AM

DemonKia

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I want to thank everyone who's participated on this thread so far, I appreciate all the feedback . . . . . . I'm fascinated reading a wide spread of opinions, & so this thread has been deeply satisfying . . . . .

I hope to see more thoughts & responses to this topic of 'radical honesty' . . . . .

Best,
The Demon, Kia

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 63

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/4/2009 8:11:23 PM

Jeptha

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One other aspect of this that interests me is the idea of choosing what you think about.

Or, choosing how you think about things.

If I compelled myself to share my thoughts with everyone on a more regular basis, maybe I'd take some steps towards practicing being less reflexively judgmental, for example.

_____________________________

...YOU KNOW HOW I LIKE MY PORK CHOPS!
- - - - - - -
"....(somewhere) therein lies the truthiness..."
~*~*~*~*
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Post #: 64

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/4/2009 9:14:05 PM

DemonKia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

One other aspect of this that interests me is the idea of choosing what you think about.

Or, choosing how you think about things.

If I compelled myself to share my thoughts with everyone on a more regular basis, maybe I'd take some steps towards practicing being less reflexively judgmental, for example.

Yes, I think I understand what you're getting at . .. .

For example, I have lifelong depression stuff (have been thoroughly evaluated by competent practitioners, have done / am doing all kinds of stuff for it) but none of that changes the reality that the way I think about & language myself to the world reinforces or shifts that underlying emotional cloudiness . ... .

&, with specific regard to my own mind, I know from long practice that what I ignore / let go of tends to diminish over time & what I focus on tends to amplify, to wit that if I discipline myself to focus on positivity it becomes somewhat easier to see & feel more optimistically . ... .

In my experience much of my thinking falls into the rubric of the habitual, & responds to many of the same tools useful for managing other habits . .. . . If that makes sense . . . . . .

I understand the other posters' points that going to 100% honesty & full blurt mode instantaneously could be potentially damaging; I'm not sure if I could ever go to 100% & full blurt myself, ethically / morally, cuz I have a lot of caustic bitter shit that comes up . . . . *shrugs shoulders* . . . . On the other hand I suspect the societal norm could gradually go to 90% or 95% & it would be for the better, but that might just be my practiced optimism . . . lol

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Post #: 65

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/5/2009 11:40:26 AM

stella41b

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I'm not sure about radical honesty, but I go for personal integrity and I'm usually disinclined to lie or deceive.. I'm openly myself, and that to me means what comes out of my mouth matches the emotional signals I give off and my actions and I'll use whatever mean I have at my disposal whether it be through speech, gesture or action not to leave behind any illusions or misconceptions.

As for coming out with what is going through my head, it depends where you lie in the onion layers of my life. I reserve the right to give out this information or to leave it up to others to work it out for themselves.

I just see a pile of caveats here, 'as far as I know', 'as far as I'm aware', 'at this moment in time', 'depending on X or Y'.

As for being brutally honest, I don't see any reason for it, there's other more subtle ways which can be just as direct, such as 'accepted fact', 'leading question', as there's truth and reality but also there's also how someone perceives that truth and that reality and it may not always match your perception.

The problem is when people are projecting so much into reality that they start to perceive their projections as reality and the truth, where the truth isn't really the truth but the lies which have replaced the truth. What then? Do you disabuse them of their 'reality' or merely accept that their perception of 'what is' differs from your own? When does 'suspension of belief' actually come into play?

One thing is for sure, honesty isn't as straightforward as some people would like to make out.

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Post #: 66

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/5/2009 3:57:46 PM

DemonKia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

One thing is for sure, honesty isn't as straightforward as some people would like to make out.

Yee-haw, you said a mouthful, Stella, I absolutely agree . ....

So many things which seem on the surface to be clear & simple turn out to be far more complicated & messy & less-than-obvious on closer inspection -- luckily, I take joy in complexity . . . . .

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Post #: 67

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/6/2009 8:37:04 AM

roland23

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How about this kind of honesty from female subs: I am looking for a guy to financially support me cause I cannot get my act together. I have met LOTS of subs who seem to be only attracted to GWMs (Guys With Money)!!!!

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Post #: 68

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/6/2009 10:24:30 AM

Jeptha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

...I just see a pile of caveats here, 'as far as I know', 'as far as I'm aware', 'at this moment in time', 'depending on X or Y'.

That's what I meant by "supplying context". I usually don't have one isolated thought that exists as a single crystalline personal truth. Weeelll ... I do, but they tend to be more abstractions or concepts. Relating to life day to day, thoughts are more... relational, and the relations get complicated. It's like unravelling a ball of yarn (...spinning a yarn?)

quote:

As for being brutally honest, I don't see any reason for it, there's other more subtle ways which can be just as direct, such as 'accepted fact', 'leading question', as there's truth and reality but also there's also how someone perceives that truth and that reality and it may not always match your perception.

I think that that would be within the parameters of being "radically honest"; you could still express yourself in any variety of ways. It doesn't have to be brutally direct. (haven't read the book, tho, so that's just my impression.)

quote:

The problem is when people are projecting so much into reality...

That's where I could see this being useful; as a kind of "reality testing"...after a while, perhaps the places where we were consistently getting it wrong (misperceiving reality) would become glaringly obvious to us.
"Reality checking" (asking for direct feedback) other's thoughts would become more second nature to us...which could definitely be useful.

But it would require constant processing, seems like to me. Like the world would become your big encounter group. Not sure if that would really fly.

One question that this conversation has brought up in my mind is this: Has anyone ever been brutally honest with you in a way that ultimately turned out to be helpful?

"Brutally honest", implying that the criticism was negative, but still "necessary" , I guess.

I can think of a handful of times in my life when I needed that metaphorical slap in the face: it stung at first, but I had to address what they were saying, and I benefitted by that.

_____________________________

...YOU KNOW HOW I LIKE MY PORK CHOPS!
- - - - - - -
"....(somewhere) therein lies the truthiness..."
~*~*~*~*
http://www.myspace.com/crocusofiron

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Post #: 69

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/6/2009 10:28:52 AM

colouredin

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FR

Not read any responses really, just skimmed but heres my view anyways. Radical pretty much anything to me is less than good, it means over the top, dramatic, without regard for anything else. So no I dont think its a good idea, I dont think it is sensible to just have word vomit all over the shop about what you think. I am really bad I have little to no tact and I dont like to tell a lie, but there is a differance between being honest and telling a lie, see because I may feel that something someone is doing is wrong but it isnt always my place to say so I wouldnt, I am not being honest but I am not lying. I try as hard as I can to not lie to a direct question but I do sometimes, we all do, no one is ever totally 100% honest and to say they are well hell they arent being honest with themselves.

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Post #: 70

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/7/2009 7:04:06 AM

SimplyMichael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissEnchanted

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Honesty is great, something I treasure. However, saying things without filters, without thinking of the timing, phrasing, and impact and calling it enlightened is the sort of bullshit that turned me off to new age thinking.

SimplyMichael

I wholeheartedly agree with all that you said above, however I do not understand exactly what you meant by 'turned me off to new age thinking'

I think of 'new age thinking' to be something that causes one to have well-balanced communication, with consideration and a LACK of brutality.

I looked it up on google but wasn't able to easily decipher how you were applying it here.

New age thought doesn't make anyone anything, just like doing bdsm doesn't. What counts are your actions. When I was younger, I dismissed new age stuff because while the words were pretty, I often saw them used by people who were rotten on the inside. Instead of dismissing THOSE rotten people, I dismissed all of new age stuff.

What I see in this "radical honesty" isn't honesty but an excuse to be mean and cruel. Trust me, I believe in honesty and openness but if it isn't combined with empathy and kindness it is just being an asshole.

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Post #: 71

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/7/2009 10:37:41 AM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

4) I've been curious about group therapy models for a while now. I think this might be the kind of insulated environment that I'd be willing to try "radical honesty" out in.

I don't recall radical honesty being what was done when I was in group therapy. In terms of what I was feeling and thinking re the issues in my life, sure. In response to the other members of the group? No.

Funny thing is we had a new person join the group and the following week both I and one of the other regulars came in early to tell the therapist that we couldn't deal with this person's anger and views towards ums. We didn't confront the new person, we saved that for the therapist who was in charge.

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Post #: 72

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/7/2009 10:50:59 AM

Jeptha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

...New age thought doesn't make anyone anything, just like doing bdsm doesn't. What counts are your actions. When I was younger, I dismissed new age stuff because while the words were pretty, I often saw them used by people who were rotten on the inside. Instead of dismissing THOSE rotten people, I dismissed all of new age stuff.

What I see in this "radical honesty" isn't honesty but an excuse to be mean and cruel. Trust me, I believe in honesty and openness but if it isn't combined with empathy and kindness it is just being an asshole.

Well, first off, why does everyone perceive this as an excuse to be mean and cruel?*
~Are your personal feelings and thoughts about others mean and cruel?
The answer I would guess would be "sometimes", and that because;
1) you are habitually petty because you're used to being able to conceal it.
2) you are human, and to be human is to experience ambivalence about things.

Thus, the honesty in question here isn't in regard to mean and cruelness, solely, but also to your own (and my own) pettiness and ambivalence (mixed feelings.)

You are portraying the idea in a radically negative light, while the author portrays what we do as general practice as radically negative.

He would probably consider your "empathy and kindness" as pretty words (similar to the New Agey words that repelled you), lies of omission that reinforce a pervasive pattern of deception and dishonesty.

But, I am playing Devil's Advocate at this point, because I don't think I believe in blurting out everything, completely unfiltered, and I do believe in trying to be considerate of other's feelings, also.

However, I also think that there could be something to the idea that if we coddle others or otherwise use kindness as an excuse to avoid difficult truths - or maybe even basic sharing - we come out the less for it.

I also think it could be useful for making us more aware of how we think, maybe in that "mindfull" way (to borrow a new agey term), in that it does cause us to address our own pettiness, defensiveness, tendency to be judgmental, ambivalence, etc.

End result being either learning to be less petty and more accepting of some level of ambivalence, or perhaps to not be so freaked out about it (It's crueal and mean!)
-------
* - note: in the article, I did regard the Esquire author as behaving like a 5 year old and hanging it on his experiment with "extreme honesty".

_____________________________

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"....(somewhere) therein lies the truthiness..."
~*~*~*~*
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Post #: 73

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/7/2009 11:07:50 AM

Jeptha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

4) I've been curious about group therapy models for a while now. I think this might be the kind of insulated environment that I'd be willing to try "radical honesty" out in.

I don't recall radical honesty being what was done when I was in group therapy. In terms of what I was feeling and thinking re the issues in my life, sure. In response to the other members of the group? No...

I am thinking of the concept of a "therapy group" in a fairly loose manner here.

I know it's not typical (it might not exist at all), but for some reason I envision it in this setting.

Perhaps I'm afraid of what would come out! Thus I'd feel more comfy dabbling with a new experiment in a confidential situation, where I'd feel more free to fuck up grandly, as it would be insulated from my private life.
- - - - -

_____________________________

...YOU KNOW HOW I LIKE MY PORK CHOPS!
- - - - - - -
"....(somewhere) therein lies the truthiness..."
~*~*~*~*
http://www.myspace.com/crocusofiron

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Post #: 74

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/7/2009 11:20:10 AM

DesFIP

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Insulated isn't the word I would choose, usually thoughts in the group had impact upon me which would cause me to make changes. But private, and therefore safe to share, is always what happens in any therapeutic treatment unless there are criminal charges and the court subpoenas the therapist's notes.

Talking about how you feel will always be private. Talking about what you've done may not be. However, you can damage your relationships with others in the group so that they don't feel comfortable being in a group that you're in. If you value the support and impact of the group, then this isn't the best thing to do.

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Post #: 75

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/7/2009 1:18:49 PM

DemonKia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha
One question that this conversation has brought up in my mind is this: Has anyone ever been brutally honest with you in a way that ultimately turned out to be helpful?

"Brutally honest", implying that the criticism was negative, but still "necessary" , I guess.

I can think of a handful of times in my life when I needed that metaphorical slap in the face: it stung at first, but I had to address what they were saying, and I benefitted by that.

I've had the 'brutal honesty slap to the face' a number of times over the course of my life, starting with my father. He had a real thing for honesty, & told me things I didn't want but needed to hear, despite how it hurt my feelings in the moment . . . .

I've had random strangers & loved ones, both, tell me uncomfortable-to-painful truths that ultimately served me well . . . . Hmmmmm, prolly the best example:

I used to smoke tobacco. My various family members (mom, grama, so on) conspired to train my (very young at that time) offspring to tell me, 'Mommy, we love you & we don't want you to die.' I did not like hearing that, thought it was sneaky & underhanded & manipulative & it tended to really plug my buttons big time . . . . . But, it was a good thing. It helped me ultimately quit smoking. It ultimately strengthened the relationship between me & the offspring.

I've actually grown to respect greater & greater honesty, even if it hurts . . . . .

& I've gotten in the habit of squirreling out the places where I need to be radically honest with myself before anyone else gets a crack at pointing out that deficiency / failing / whatever . . . . . . Really helps me out when later, inevitably later, someone points it out, I've already 'toughened' my hide up, can deal with it . . . . . .

Like this whole 'fat' thing -- I've been fat most of my adult life, I long ago quit using all the comforting euphemisms, I just call myself 'fat' & it doesn't get me all riled up to hear that I look 'fat in those pants' . . . . & if someone wants to unleash a hurl of abuse at me under the guise of 'radical honesty' I'd wonder what else was going on with that person, what stash of repressed emotional stuff that person was hording -- I'd wonder for a bit, then I'd wander off & do other stuff . .. . . . I like to think I've gotten wise enough to distinguish between 'honesty about me' & 'hostile feelings about me', tho' I may have to go ponder awhile to figure it out . . ... ..

Part of what is puzzling me is this idea that seems to be underneath some of the discussion here: that 'polite social lying' results in all kinds of good feeling all the time, & that 'radical honesty' threatens that with it's brutality . . . . . Maybe others live in that super-nicey-nice world, but I don't . . . . I live in a world where people are both randomly & deliberately mean to each other, & lying & honesty are just tools toward the goal of meanness . . . . . That 'kindness / meanness' are independent & seperate entities to some degree from these notions of 'honesty / lying' . . . . ..

The thought problem that occurred to me while continuing to read thru this thread was as follows: person A doesn't like me, thinks I'm an arrogant know-it-all bitch, & lets me know it; person B doesn't like me much better, for the same reason, but pretends to be all nicey-nice because it is socially convenient for person B to do so . . . . . .

My truth is I'd rather be around A because I'd know where I stand with that person; & my experience is that person B's dislike would 'leak' in all kinds of subtle ways & I'd know it . . . . . . . & I'd respect A for their honesty & forthrightness, & I'd lose respect for B over time, as they continued to 'act' like they like me but never 'fessed up their dislike . . .. . .

(Oh, & if it's not obvious, I have lots of experience with exactly the kind of circumstances described in that little thought problem . . . .. . In fact, I suspect that better than 90% of humanity would find me arrogant & know-it-all & all that, given the chance . . . ..)

Anyways, I'm enjoying the discussion on this topic, the diversity of opinion & response . . . . I appreciate everyone who's participated & I look forward to hearing more . . . .

(in reply to Jeptha)

Post #: 76

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/7/2009 1:25:12 PM

Vendaval

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I am not reading through all the replies on this one. IMO, this would be a great way to insure spending one's life alone and shouting at the TV.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia
Firstly, Radical Honesty is guided by two basic principles: (1) 100% honesty, & (2) speaking whatever comes into one's head, spontaneously & without filter . .. . . .

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Post #: 77

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/7/2009 4:05:34 PM

DomImus

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Radical honesty looks really good on paper. I do know one thing - the one person I would never ever trust is the person who tells me that they never ever lie.

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Post #: 78

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/7/2009 6:40:46 PM

catize

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quote:

Part of what is puzzling me is this idea that seems to be underneath some of the discussion here: that 'polite social lying' results in all kinds of good feeling all the time, & that 'radical honesty' threatens that with it's brutality . . . . . Maybe others live in that super-nicey-nice world, but I don't . . . . I live in a world where people are both randomly & deliberately mean to each other, & lying & honesty are just tools toward the goal of meanness . . . . . That 'kindness / meanness' are independent & seperate entities to some degree from these notions of 'honesty / lying' . . .

No, I don’t live in a ‘nicey-nice’ world, but instead of radical or brutal honesty, what I see/get most of the time is avoidance. Something is an issue between friends or co-workers and they choose to tell everyone else except the person they should be talking to.
I’d rather verbally duke it out with someone and get the issue resolved. But a lot of people fear honesty. I’m not sure if they are afraid of reprisals, or if it is more an assumption that “You can’t handle the truth!”
However, I do filter what I say depending on whether or not my observation
A) is something they may not be aware of and
B) has the potential for change.
Telling someone they have a strategic button undone is a fact they need to know and is a fixable problem. Telling someone they are fat doesn’t make them thinner and I assume they are aware.
Honesty doesn’t need to be confrontational. I like the sentiment that “It’s not what you say; its how you say it.”

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Post #: 79

RE: Radical Honesty - 4/7/2009 7:37:56 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Do you practice Radical Honesty?

I just practice Honestly.... I never really saw it as a radical concept..... Frankly, I am rather surprized that one would see it as radical. I guess maybe some people believe that deceit and lies are much more pronounces in our society that what I believe.

But along with honesty comes other admirable character strengths like kindness and empathy as Michael stated. Sometimes it really just about how you say what your thinking and feeling. Both might be honest... but one is with kindness and empathy and one not so much. I am not sure why this is such a radical concept.

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Post #: 80

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