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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 9:59:47 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut

I think we would all agree that legally you cannot own a person.
I think we would all agree that legally you cannot beat a person, consensual or not.
I think we would all agree that noone has the legal right to do anything to a person, make a person do anything etc.
(I'm sure there are exceptions but i'm talking in general).
 
Now in D/s, M/s, BDSM, whatever you want to call it we often speak of or hear spoken:-
 
I am an owned sub / slave.
I own a sub / slave.
I can beat my slave.
I can be beaten by Sir etc.
I gave up all my rights to Sir etc.
I have all rights over my sub / slave.
(All consensual of course).
 
Now to make this black and white, i guess you would say legally you are living in a fantasy world if you believe the second set of statements. That in reality none of the second set are actually true.
 
In a world that is as clear cut as the above is all D/s, M/s, BDSM etc just fantasy?


Well, let's break it down a bit. If we're talking about tangible, physical aspects of BDSM  - such as bondage, S&M, etc - then obviously that's not all just fantasy. If someone's tied up, they're tied up. If someone's hitting someone with a cane, they're hitting them with a cane. A cane sizzling across your ass is about as real as it gets. So bondage and S&M are fantasies only until we actually put them into action, at which point they become reality.

But BDSM is about far more than what we do to each other or have done to us. It's about how we feel, as well. For me, BDSM is all about how I feel toward my partner. Submission is how I express my feelings for her, and her dominance over me is the way i interpret and understand her feelings for me. Those feelings are not fantasy. My love for her, and my absolute devotion to her, are very real, and they are what drive the entire relationship dynamic for me. So no, that's not a fantasy either. Not for me, anyway, or for others whose kink is wired the same as mine. So dominance and submission are also very real when they are part of the dynamic of a relationship.

When you start getting into some of the conceptual definitions for the relationship dynamics, such as ownership, slavery, etc. - well, then, obviously we're getting into an area where you can't really call it reality. As you say, it's impossible for someone to legally own someone else, so yeah. Now we're in the realm of fantasy. But if you really feel it, there's no reason you can't live as though it's real.

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 4/2/2009 10:01:37 AM >

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 10:02:44 AM   
LadyMerrisa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I don't know why.. but this question brought up a memory for me.  For a very short while, early in my marriage this was my reality.
All my rights were gone (didn't realise I gave them away)
He had all the money (2 full closets of clothing and one large dresser).  I had to beg for things for our kids.
He often yelled at me for mistakes I may have made.
He hit me a few times... until my mother caught him and tossed him into a wall and pinned his body UP off the floor (she is 5'2".. he was 6'2")
I am going to say.. that was reality.
What I do now, is fantasy.
Like it or not.
Kyst


I agree. BDSM is a fantasy, but for people involved, it can be very true and very real experience. And that's good, it is just a fantasy, because authentic "slavery" looks pretty much like you've described above. And it really doesn't seem like fun. I think, that whatever are people saying, they are glad that for real, they are free human beeings, who can take their own decisions.

< Message edited by LadyMerrisa -- 4/2/2009 10:04:04 AM >

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 10:09:07 AM   
porcelaine


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Status: offline 		the scenarios are a version of a reality two people have opted to enact which remains in tact until one faction opts to change things. both people are willingly subjecting themselves to the challenges and restrictions the lifestyle might require, while maintaining a freedom that can be reclaimed.

then again, reality is like perception, individual and unique to everyone. your reality might be something completely unfeasible to me and a truth i opt not to give credence to. however, does this take away from the fact that it is real to you? i think not.

porcelaine


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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 10:10:18 AM   
dreamerdreaming


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

Since the only necessary parameters are that the above list items be equally expressed by the people in the relationship, it's "real" the moment it is lived.




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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 10:21:51 AM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		I wouldn't call it a fantasy as much as an artificial construct. Similar to the manned flight to Mars experiment. They obviously aren't living in a real spaceship hurtling towards the red planet. They are living in an artificial one under the same conditions as if they really were going. They've set it up to be as real as possible to see how people react.

In wiitwd, we've set it up to be as real as it can be under the situation.

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 11:03:51 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
In wiitwd, we've set it up to be as real as it can be under the situation.


Yes, but is it as twue as it can be :-) ?

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 11:13:45 AM   
DesFIP


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Most of my life isn't illegal in any possible way. Him saying, "Don't get that awful raspberry chocolate ice cream ever again" is hardly abusive under any statute I know of. A high school game of football is legal under the law re possible injuries, but a pick up game in the back yard isn't. I don't know any police officer who is going to arrest a group of kids and the parents for such a game going on.

Really, for most of us, this is a nonissue. The only way anyone could know what we were doing would be to invade my home and that is a greater illegality. Can you really see a court saying okay to a request for a warrant because the two people living there were caught talking about nipple torture on cme?

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 11:15:27 AM   
AnnaOfAramis


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quote:

These two words are contradictory: slavery cannot be consensual.


As a matter of fact they are not at all contradictory. And in history there were real life slaves who became slaves by consent. The vikings for one : "A thrall (Old Norse þræll; þír, f.) was a slave in Scandinavian culture during the Viking Age. Unlike many of the forms of slavery throughout human history, the state of being a thrall could be entered into voluntarily, as well as involuntarily". (wikipedia). Also the Romans. Not to mention that people voluntarily sold themselves into slavery to get out of debt, to get passage to places like America that they could not afford... becoming indentured servants... not much different that slavery. Girls sometimes voluntarily entered harems as slaves because they would be trained in the arts and enjoy a better standard of living.

see also the american historical review:
http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ahr/105.2/ah000480.html

and The History of Slavery and Slave Trade:
http://books.google.com/books?id=g213AAAAMAAJ&pg=PR5&lpg=PR5&dq=voluntary+slavery+in+Greece&source=bl&ots=lHrDC8MKN0&sig=cvTtQvtvsWW5qz93J4RCHCU2bHQ&hl=en&ei=HwPVSf_JN5bqlQfo0f3CDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1


< Message edited by AnnaOfAramis -- 4/2/2009 11:27:08 AM >

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 11:18:06 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Oh, I'd get off on getting arrested big time, can you imagine the thrill of it  ?

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 11:20:26 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

I think we would all agree that legally you cannot own a person.
I think we would all agree that legally you cannot beat a person, consensual or not.
I think we would all agree that noone has the legal right to do anything to a person, make a person do anything etc.
(I'm sure there are exceptions but i'm talking in general).

 
it has been this slave's experience that unwilling participants as well as sociopathic behavior...legally backed or not, is not what we are talking about on a discussion board with references to alternative styles such as Master/slave dynamic based relationships or imposed limits on such...a "given", if you will.
 
folks who can only engage another in the context of an intimate relationship by way of what is deemed legally binding and within society's approved conventions stopped appealing to this slave long ago.  she just isn't cut out for it...on many levels.
 
quote:

...I am an owned sub / slave.
I own a sub / slave.
I can beat my slave.
I can be beaten by Sir etc.
I gave up all my rights to Sir etc.
I have all rights over my sub / slave.
(All consensual of course)...

 
is being His slave an elaborate construct or an accurate description of reality?  it is real for this slave, as the Master/slave relationship we both enjoy wouldn't exist if we were relegated to only pursuing socially acceptable/legal relationship partnerings such as those on eharmony looking for husband/wife material.
 
and that is all that matters...regardless of how others view us.

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 11:21:22 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis


quote:

These two words are contradictory: slavery cannot be consensual.


As a matter of fact they are not at all contradictory. And in history there were real life slaves who became slaves by consent. The vikings for one : "A thrall (Old Norse þræll; þír, f.) was a slave in Scandinavian culture during the Viking Age. Unlike many of the forms of slavery throughout human history, the state of being a thrall could be entered into voluntarily, as well as involuntarily". (wikipedia). Not to mention that people voluntarily sold themselves into slavery to get out of debt, to get passage to places like America that they could not afford... becoming indentured servants... not much different that slavery. Girls sometimes voluntarily entered harems as slaves because they would be trained in the arts and enjoy a better standard of living.


I knew somebody would bring these historical examples in. But they are historical examples, and nothing more, and it can be argued whether these people truly had the choice to become slaves, or whether it was forced upon them for fear of death - or worse. The fact is that a person on collarme who says 'I am a slave to my master' is putting a name upon something that is not at all akin to slavery.

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 11:24:06 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis


quote:

These two words are contradictory: slavery cannot be consensual.


As a matter of fact they are not at all contradictory. And in history there were real life slaves who became slaves by consent. The vikings for one : "A thrall (Old Norse þræll; þír, f.) was a slave in Scandinavian culture during the Viking Age. Unlike many of the forms of slavery throughout human history, the state of being a thrall could be entered into voluntarily, as well as involuntarily". (wikipedia). Not to mention that people voluntarily sold themselves into slavery to get out of debt, to get passage to places like America that they could not afford... becoming indentured servants... not much different that slavery. Girls sometimes voluntarily entered harems as slaves because they would be trained in the arts and enjoy a better standard of living.


I knew somebody would bring these historical examples in. But they are historical examples, and nothing more, and it can be argued whether these people truly had the choice to become slaves, or whether it was forced upon them for fear of death - or worse. The fact is that a person on collarme who says 'I am a slave to my master' is putting a name upon something that is not at all akin to slavery.


slave, as a word, has more than one specific definition, as do many words, depending on context.

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 11:26:40 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut

In a world that is as clear cut as the above is all D/s, M/s, BDSM etc just fantasy?
 


Absolutely not. You can generate your own code of behaviour and choose to live by that. You are bound by the law of course, but then you are in any working, relationship or family arrangement (ditto day-to-day existence); so there's nothing particularly unrealistic about how you choose to organise your relationship.

Edited to add: I would have thought it self-evident that any couple setting up a master/slave relationship, is engaging in a very real relationship. The fact that it's not recognised by an external force such as a legal title, doesn't detract from the nature of the relationship.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/2/2009 11:30:57 AM >

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 11:27:17 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


folks who can only engage another in the context of an intimate relationship by way of what is deemed legally binding and within society's approved conventions stopped appealing to this slave long ago.  she just isn't cut out for it...on many levels.
 


I would argue, people like that are slaves also, they've just chosen a different type of master.

Kim


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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 11:27:33 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
slave, as a word, has more than one specific definition, as do many words, depending on context.


Precisely.

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 11:34:30 AM   
IronBear


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Status: offline 		There is also a similarity and yet a difference between what we as kingsters accept as consensual slavery and the psychological slavery imposed by many cults (Something which I do have some expertise in). One the one hand the kingster knows they can leave anytime they wish (if they can't then they are being held against theior will and thus their "owner" is breaking some serious laws). Whereas the cultist if her or she wants to leave believe they are unabl;e to do so for any number of reasons of which treats and blackmail are two which come to mind). The slavery which a cult excorcises or mahy excorcise, is one held in place by a combinagtion of what is commonly refered to as brain washing and fear even if the fear is fear of displeasing the cult leader. There are Occult or religious grouips who do excorcise a form of bondage which is consual in a similar format as we use in the D/s and M/s relationships. People joining myn personal group jknow they may leave any time with no ill feelings. Similarly when I take an apprentice for sorcery she is told from the start than whilst she is my apprentice she answers only to me (similar to a M/s relationship) and if she leaves she may do so taking all that she brought to the relationship plus all gifts I have bestowed, personal notes I have instructed her to write. All that happens is that I cut her off from any further contact especially from those who I work with.  I don't see it as consensual slavery or anything but rather as a Master/student dynamic with a very hard discliplinary code. Due to differing terminology and interfacinmg with general society I prefer to refer to those collared to Bruin Cottage as staff or servants which is something the mundane world can cope with.



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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 11:37:47 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
slave, as a word, has more than one specific definition, as do many words, depending on context.


Precisely.


then why make this statement?

quote:

...The fact is that a person on collarme who says 'I am a slave to my master' is putting a name upon something that is not at all akin to slavery...

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 11:39:51 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		It's interesting that you're bringing in the notion of brainwashing and cults. I've sometimes wondered to what extent certain individuals with a fragile psychological terrain weren't somewhat conditioned into submission by the person they were with - and this doesn't necessarily apply to BDSM relationships, but also to those dreadful 'vanilla' type marriages that get so derided on these boards.

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 11:40:50 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


folks who can only engage another in the context of an intimate relationship by way of what is deemed legally binding and within society's approved conventions stopped appealing to this slave long ago.  she just isn't cut out for it...on many levels.
 


I would argue, people like that are slaves also, they've just chosen a different type of master.

Kim



and for the sake of arguement, it could be asserted that all human beings are slaves to something...even if it is only to ourselves...our personal limitations and what we must do in order to survive.
 
"slave" is indeed sometimes in the eye of the beholder, not the law.

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RE: Reality or fantasy? - 4/2/2009 11:43:11 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


and for the sake of arguement, it could be asserted that all human beings are slaves to something...even if it is only to ourselves...our personal limitations and what we must do in order to survive.
 
"slave" is indeed sometimes in the eye of the beholder, not the law.


Agreed!!
 
Kim

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