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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 6:48:09 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

How about some links Celtic Lord.  Sorry to steal your line.


Rather than some links to argue over points that I think are immaterial to the discussion at hand ... how about responding to my questions?

Firm


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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 6:52:06 PM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


I reiterate:

Please ... leave your partisan bickering at home ... I know that Bush was Hitler, and Obama is "the One" ... but I'm more interested in discussing whether or not there really can be any substantive differences in the path that we seem to going as a society, and as a government.

And whether or not it's a path we really want to travel.


Firm


No. (to both of your questions) </thread> 

Fair enough answer, but it leaves me a little ... empty.

If there can't, or won't be any substantive changes ... what the hell are we arguing about among ourselves?

Firm



Well, I'll try and fill the empty spaces. start with the second "no". Its not a path we want to travel. Why? Because substantive change isnt needed. We've done just fine letting things evolve slowly. Yes, there have been missteps, some of us have learned from our mistakes, and  those currently in office who haven't learned the lessons of history won't be there forever.

If it isnt needed then it doesnt matter whether it can happen or not....in fact better if it doesnt.

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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 6:58:57 PM   
lronitulstahp


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Actually Firm, i think your question is a legitimate one. i am glad to see certain things mentioned earlier....Stem cell research moving forward, an end to the conditions at Gitmo, a plan to remove American troops from Iraq, but like many, i think the Administration needs to readdress the economy.  Pointing fingers and reminding the country that the recession (or semi-depression) was inherited is a pretty half-assed approach.   i like well thought out plans and results, not the sort of desperation i sense led to the bailout.

However....i do recognize that there is a change.  i breathe easier, no longer  thinking about things taking on a sort of "Handsmaid's Tale" direction as far as women's rights are concerned, and i don't feel the encroachment of the "fundies" as such a threat any longer.  As far as how America is viewed in the world??? Well....
quote:

At the end of Obama's Friday press conference, French President Nicolas Sarkozy addressed the issue directly, speaking through an interpreter. "It feels really good to be able to work with a U.S. President who wants to change the world and who understands that the world does not boil down to simply American frontiers and borders," he said. "And that is a hell of a good piece of news for 2009." (Time magazine)


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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 7:25:36 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

" as there are already wealthy people leaving the country. "







Oh,and what paradice are they moving to?......lol


Fuck`m.Don`t let the door hit`m where the good lord split`m.






< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/4/2009 8:11:18 PM >


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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 7:26:17 PM   
aravain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

The biggest change is the tone.

So you agree that it's not a substantive change?


Hmm, I'm interested to find out, Firm, why do you think that's *not* a substantive change? I'm no Obamaniac, but I do think that the tone of an administration is almost as important as what it does (especially when it's as new as it is now).

Ask me in about a year (or even just another 4 months or so) if I think any substantive change has happened. Then the tone won't weigh as heavily. I'm reserving my ultimate judgement.

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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 8:05:31 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Has the US national interest changed, just because Obama is the President, and the Democratic Party is now in charge of our Legislative Branch?



...well, we'd probably agree that any country's national interest is less a single thing but more like a long shopping list. The trick is deciding what's top of the list. The order of those items may well have changed......at least inasmuch as the person doing the shopping is prepared to spend the money.

(argh, horribly strained metaphor....sorry)

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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 8:14:04 PM   
Owner59


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Not at all.

It`s the priorities that have changed.It`s a perfect metaphor.

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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 8:35:14 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

My question is ... what "change"?

Wrong hand, wrong hand... watch the other one.
 
K.
 
 

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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 9:09:06 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Not at all.

It`s the priorities that have changed.It`s a perfect metaphor.


Which priorities ... and how much?

Firm


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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 9:10:55 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

My question is ... what "change"?

Wrong hand, wrong hand... watch the other one.


I hear you, K.

But ... really .. isn't this only an acceration of things that we were already sliding towards?

Firm


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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 9:15:18 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...well, we'd probably agree that any country's national interest is less a single thing but more like a long shopping list. The trick is deciding what's top of the list. The order of those items may well have changed......at least inasmuch as the person doing the shopping is prepared to spend the money.

Well .... I think I covered the re-arrangement of the shopping list by talking about the emphasis changing to an extent.

Words are one thing.  Actions are what count in the long run, to me.

What actions have changed?  And more importantly ... what is the major change(s) in the direction that the US is headed as a nation and as a society?

I don't see any fundamental change, and would not expect one, even if McCain had been elected, and even if Obama loses next year.

Firm


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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 9:24:41 PM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...well, we'd probably agree that any country's national interest is less a single thing but more like a long shopping list. The trick is deciding what's top of the list. The order of those items may well have changed......at least inasmuch as the person doing the shopping is prepared to spend the money.

Well .... I think I covered the re-arrangement of the shopping list by talking about the emphasis changing to an extent.

Words are one thing.  Actions are what count in the long run, to me.

What actions have changed?  And more importantly ... what is the major change(s) in the direction that the US is headed as a nation and as a society?

I don't see any fundamental change, and would not expect one, even if McCain had been elected, and even if Obama loses next year.

Firm



you dont see a fundamental change? Try a budget/bail out agenda that will result in more debt in 10 years than the total in the history of the country. Try a government bureaucrat telling you that your wife can't have a drug because its too expensive.  Try the government dictating who can earn what, and then can place a confiscatory tax on that. Try a Congress that doesnt respect 240 years of history of how their affairs are conducted, in order to push their socialist agenda.

and Blowboy cant lose next year, unfortunately.

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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 9:26:21 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


The intent of this post and thread is not to bash Obama, but to discuss the concept of the promised "change".

My question is ... what "change"?

Oh, sure, we've traded out some people in positions of power, and some polices may change in the margins .... but so far, it doesn't look to me as there are any substantial changes in direction ... just changes in emphasis.


For better and worse, I largely agree with you. I don't see a lot of substantive procedural changes, which disappoints me somewhat, but it doesn't surprise me because I wasn't really expecting many. Not yet, anyway.

As others have mentioned, I think the principle changes are more philosophical and ideological than procedural. Whatever significant changes he's able to effect will be incremental, rather than radical. I suspect that at the end of his first year, we'll all be able to look back and see pretty clearly that the country feels like a very different place to live than it did during the previous 8 years. I think the difference will simply be that at every key juncture, he'll just make different decisions than his predecessor made at similar decisions points, reflecting his different values and philosophy. And the cumulative result of those different decisions could add up to very significant change over the course of several years.

I think his recent budget proposal offers a lot of insight into what some of those changes will be  - the things he proposes to spend money on will represent a considerable change in the way our country does business. For better or worse. If he's successful in putting these social programs into play, that's going to be real change. On a scale the country hasn't seen in 70 years.


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


Please ... leave your partisan bickering at home ... I know that Bush was Hitler, and Obama is "the One" ... but I'm more interested in discussing whether or not there really can be any substantive differences in the path that we seem to going as a society, and as a government.

And whether or not it's a path we really want to travel.


But this almost sounds like an entirely separate question, or at least it could be interpreted that way. Where I think we're going as a society is to hell in a handbasket, and I don't think there's anything Obama or any other president can do to really change that. I have very bleak expectations for our future, and as strongly as I supported Obama and as happy as i was to see him elected, I never saw him as a savior. Just a guy who might be able to make the path to hell a little easier for the average Joe and Jane.


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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 9:28:45 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I don't see any fundamental change, and would not expect one, even if McCain had been elected, and even if Obama loses next year.



Jeez, Firm. I know you've been very fair to the guy ever since he was elected, but come on. The least you can do is give the poor bastard his full 4 years, can't you?


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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 9:32:49 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Wrong hand, wrong hand...
watch the other one.


"Control the coinage and the courts... let the rabble have the rest."
- from one of the Dune books (I forget which one off hand) by Frank Herbert.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 4/4/2009 9:59:23 PM >


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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 9:34:56 PM   
MasterShake69


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So where are the more NATO Combat Troops Obama said he would get???  Oh they are now just trainers...more NATO do nothing troops.  What was that British quote i had in another thread.  Some troops fight while others drink and watch TV.

http://www.metimes.com/Editorial/2008/09/12/bush_takes_a_page_from_obamas_foreign_policy_handbook/3828/

Obama has promised, if elected, to send two extra combat brigades to Afghanistan, to use that as leverage to get more NATO combat troops from the European allies and to mount a massive multi-billion dollar civilian aid package for Afghanistan and neighboring Pakistan.

http://www.metimes.com/Opinion/2009/04/03/obama_using_gorbachevs_afghan_plan/6151/

Obama Using Gorbachev's Afghan Plan By NERI ZILBER Published: April 03, 2009




http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=7255246
U.S. Drone Fires Missile in Pakistan, 13 Dead By Alamgir Bitani
April 4, 2009
PESHAWAR, Pakistan (Reuters) - A pilotless U.S. drone aircraft fired a missile in northwest Pakistan on Saturday, killing 13 people including some foreign militants, security officials and residents said. Hours later, Pakistani Taliban militant leader Baitullah Mehsud claimed responsibility for a shooting at a U.S. immigration center in New York in which a gunman killed 13 people, saying it was revenge for U.S. drone attacks in Pakistan. U.S. officials were not immediately available for comment about Mehsud's claim, but Pakistani security analysts dismissed it as a publicity stunt. The New York Times quoted representative Maurice Hinchey, whose district includes the town of Binghamton in New York state where the shooting took place, as saying indications were the gunman was an immigrant from Vietnam. With the Afghan insurgency intensifying, the United States began launching more drone strikes against al Qaeda and Taliban militants on the Pakistani side of the border last year. Since then, about 35 U.S. strikes have killed about 350 people, including mid-level al Qaeda members, according to reports from Pakistani officials, residents and militants.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090405/ap_on_go_pr_wh/eu_obama

Obama hails 5,000 more NATO troops for Afghanistan
By TOM RAUM, Associated Press Writer Tom Raum, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 39 mins ago STRASBOURG, France – President Barack Obama hailed "strong and unanimous support" from NATO allies on Saturday for his stepped-up anti-terror strategy in Afghanistan and Pakistan and welcomed their "down payment" promises of 5,000 fresh forces. The allies rebuffed U.S. appeals for more combat forces to join the war, but the backing Obama did gain at a European summit allowed him to claim an early victory on the world's foreign policy stage. NATO allies agreed to send up to 5,000 more military trainers and police to Afghanistan, including forces to help protect candidates and voters at upcoming elections. Obama called that "a strong down payment" on both Afghanistan and NATO itself at the end of a gathering celebrating the 60th anniversary of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. He waved off questions on whether the size and makeup of the commitments were disappointing in light of an anti-terrorism struggle he himself portrayed as daunting. Since becoming president, Obama has begun switching America's anti-terror emphasis to fighting al-Qaida in the Afghanistan-Pakistan area as the war in Iraq winds down.

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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 9:35:16 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I don't see any fundamental change, and would not expect one, even if McCain had been elected, and even if Obama loses next year.



Jeez, Firm. I know you've been very fair to the guy ever since he was elected, but come on. The least you can do is give the poor bastard his full 4 years, can't you?





I guess I'm getting old.  Time accelerates when that happens.

Let's just suppose I was talking about the mid-term elections, shall we?

Firm


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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 9:37:43 PM   
Marc2b


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According to my grandfather (the wisest man I ever knew), the only difference between the Republicans and the Democrats is that after they finnish fucking you in the ass the Republican deign to to toss you a few bucks whislt the Democrats lift a few bucks from your wallet.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. 

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 4/4/2009 9:38:27 PM >


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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 9:42:13 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

So where are the more NATO Combat Troops Obama said he would get???  Oh they are now just trainers...more NATO do nothing troops.  What was that British quote i had in another thread.  Some troops fight while others drink and watch TV.


Shake, I think I get your point, but I'd hope you could make it without having to quote complete articles. Brevity is the soul of wit, after all.

As for how your point relates to this thread ...

Are you saying that Obama's "new diplomacy" is pretty much no better than the old diplomacy, as far as results go?

That I can't really disagree with so far, although it's based not necessarily on any major deficiencies of the Obama foreign service, but rather on the cruel facts of international relations, and national self-interest.

Which was kinda my point.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 4/4/2009 9:43:16 PM >


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RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 9:44:07 PM   
lronitulstahp


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quote:

Try a Congress that doesnt respect 240 years of history of how their affairs are conducted, in order to push their socialist agenda.

In 1865 there were a lot of people whining about how Abe Lincoln kept them from doing "business as usual" 

If any business was being run the same way folks did in 1776...well...all the feather plume pens and ink pots would get pretty messy...just sayin'

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