Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread)


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 9:45:52 PM   
awmslave


Posts: 599
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline 		I see change. Fleecing of America: the government has officially  and openly teamed up with big business.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 10:02:20 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

I see change. Fleecing of America: the government has officially  and openly teamed up with big business.


uhhh ... I thought that was what the "left" accused Bush and company of doing, and that the Democrats intended to change?

Perhaps, not "teamed up with", but "taken control of" might be more accurate?

Either way ... hasn't there always been a two-way incestuous relationship between big business and the government?

Isn't this just a deeper aspect of the same thing?

Many on the right claim that the entire housing bubble was a result of certain politicians mandating that Freddie Mac, and Fanny May should give loans to unqualified buyers, for their own (the politicians) own political reason.  Both agencies where government corporations, federally insured.

Who did they take their guidance from then?  Who are they taking their guidance from now?

How is the current TARP and bail outs any different, really, in the long run?

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to awmslave)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/4/2009 11:34:43 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      To your question, the 'change' is from one set of idiots who thought they had it all figured out, to another. 


There's little for them to figure out, other than how to put on the most credible show for their audience as possible. BHO will continue to follow instructions from his masters, just as GWB did.

BHO happens to be able to think quickly on his feet, and is smooth as silk in far more situations than not. So he can put on a more credible show than GWB can.

Meanwhile, the PTB is well-aware that they've pushed forward their agendas a little too aggressively and transparently over the prior eight years. Now they'll take their foot off the pedal and ease off their acceleration for a while, in an effort to restore faith and confidence of the sheeple. They can't allow the natives to become too restless.

GWB's primary act was to "protect" us from the evil boogeymen the PTB created. BHO primary act is to "save" us from the financial crisis that the PTB created.

The movement towards complete tyranny will continue. The biggest "change" will be in the mindset of the sheeple. BHO will pacify far more of us than GWB did.

Of course, many of those who frequent this board don't want to hear any of this, as it doesn't fall into the left vs. right paradigm that they've swallowed line, hook, and sinker. But then, it's hard for most adults to admit that they've been duped all of their lives. It easier to ignore all this, or even defend the status quo.

The main job of the POTUS is theater, not leadership.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/5/2009 12:01:04 AM   
awmslave


Posts: 599
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

How is the current TARP and bail outs any different, really, in the long run?

The difference is in numbers. The transfer of such huge amount of public funds has never taken place before. I just can not call it anything else than grand theft. The TARP is total fraud. How Obama administration hopes to get away with it?

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/5/2009 12:31:14 AM   
MasterShake69


Posts: 752
Joined: 11/30/2005
Status: offline 		Some Roman era architecture is still used today.  Dont throw away brilliance just because of its age.  The American constitution is the model for the rest of the world. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

quote:

Try a Congress that doesnt respect 240 years of history of how their affairs are conducted, in order to push their socialist agenda.

In 1865 there were a lot of people whining about how Abe Lincoln kept them from doing "business as usual"  . 

If any business was being run the same way folks did in 1776...well...all the feather plume pens and ink pots would get pretty messy...just sayin'

(in reply to lronitulstahp)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/5/2009 12:35:04 AM   
MasterShake69


Posts: 752
Joined: 11/30/2005
Status: offline 		Just follow the Obama campaign Donations for proof.  People like Joseph cassano should be in jail.

http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2009/03/17/2009-03-17_pin_aig_woes_on_brooklyn_boy_joseph_cass-1.html



quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

I see change. Fleecing of America: the government has officially  and openly teamed up with big business.


uhhh ... I thought that was what the "left" accused Bush and company of doing, and that the Democrats intended to change?

Perhaps, not "teamed up with", but "taken control of" might be more accurate?

Either way ... hasn't there always been a two-way incestuous relationship between big business and the government?

Isn't this just a deeper aspect of the same thing?

Many on the right claim that the entire housing bubble was a result of certain politicians mandating that Freddie Mac, and Fanny May should give loans to unqualified buyers, for their own (the politicians) own political reason.  Both agencies where government corporations, federally insured.

Who did they take their guidance from then?  Who are they taking their guidance from now?

How is the current TARP and bail outs any different, really, in the long run?

Firm


(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/5/2009 12:48:20 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

" as there are already wealthy people leaving the country. "





Oh,and what paradice are they moving to?......lol


Fuck`m.Don`t let the door hit`m where the good lord split`m.



Except they're in the better position to say "fuck you" to the US. :p  One friend I knew had a total tax obligation in the 7 digits in past years.  This year his obligation to the US is zero.

And it's not just people leaving the country - I know of a record store owner who had 2 stores, each open seven days a week; who as a result of the tax changes closed one store, fired 4 people, and now closes on weekends...and his take-home pay is barely hurt because he'll pay far less taxes and expenses.

Just saying, big dramatic changes to how you treat the wealthy can backfire when it's the wealthy that are in a position to just bail out of our economy and take their money with them.  And it wouldn't take that many to do it to wipe out any gains from the increased taxes on the wealthy.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/5/2009 12:59:23 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

If any business was being run the same way folks did in 1776...well...all the feather plume pens and ink pots would get pretty messy...just sayin'

Actually, more I think about it, you might have hit on an idea there. I bet the bills reaching the floor of the House and the Senate would be a helluva lot shorter. Can you imagine writing out the tax code in longhand with a quill pen? A lot of things would get real simple real quick. Congress might even read some of the stuff before it votes! What a concept, eh?
 
K.
 
 

< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/5/2009 1:01:43 AM >

(in reply to lronitulstahp)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/5/2009 4:49:20 AM   
SilverMark


Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline 		It's funny to see the start of changes answered with supposition and predictions of failure by those, who if the thread was not a non-Obama bashing thread would be bashing with all of their might.
Is there change yes....is it as fast as some would hope...No...
Are there plans for healthcare....yes...if you agree or not, there is indeed a plan...are we continuing on our endless quest in Iraq...No...will troops remain yes, would it be the right move to remove them in total after we have basically wrecked the country....No
Has the tenor of how we as a country speak to the rest of the world changed...yes...in the 8 years of the previous administration how much communication with the American people was there?....how often have we seen of the President in his short tenure....
Yes the bailouts continue, it seem that those that deal with the economy think it is pre-requisite to our recovery...is there now a plan for dealing with the toxic assets that have slowed our economy so badly...yes...was there one before? yes, but, then Paulsen decided that wasn't the thing to do...(I think he was wrong and mis-used the funds available)
So, will it be faster...doubtful, the flaws within the system will not allow for rapid change...)thank your local idiot congressman....I certainly have plans to THANK mine)....Has there been change? yes...with more to come....will those who wish to bash Obama want it, agree with it or think it is good....unbelievably doubtful!
Great effort Firm, and I appreciate your discipline in trying to not allow bashing in either direction.....good to see you back and hope your time in Vegas was both enjoyable and profitable.


_____________________________

If you have sex with a siamese twin, is it considered a threesome?

The trouble with ignorance is that it picks up confidence as it goes along.
- Arnold H. Glasow

It may be your sole purpose in life to simply serve as a warning to others!

(in reply to lronitulstahp)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/5/2009 6:05:50 AM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Your apparent conclusion that it was "Obama bashing" is because you have invested into Obama, and is not based on the facts, I would submit.

That’s an opinion based on?
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
The biggest change is the tone.
quote:


So you agree that it's not a substantive change?


Firstly I'd say it's a little too early to tell how policy is changing since you can't suddenly stop the political reality that has been put in place by the previous administration.

I could see change wasn't going to come overnight when the majority of advisors were kept on from the previous administration. The substantial change will come later when their game plan comes to an end. The general rule is it takes at least two years for policy changes to have an effect noticeable by people on the street. The bigger the organisation the slower it is to change regardless of the abruptness of policy change.
quote:


No more rendition? 
Obama preserves renditions as counter-terrorism tool

As I recall he mentioned snatching people from other countries the USA didn't have an extradition treaty with in extreme circumstances. I hope you agree this is far removed from moving suspects to countries that condone torture to get information you need. The former is inevitable only the latter is rendition IMO.
quote:


no more cuban holiday camps
Well, it's kinda still open ya know.  As well .... Secret List of U.S. Military Bases to Replace Gitmo.

Yes, dealing with the current 250 and with no indication anymore inmates will be added. You’ll notice the list contains prisons within the U.S. so they are given the same trial rights as US citizens, that was made clear previously. The whole point of the Cuba camp was to avoid the inconvenience of this giving people rights. If you don’t see that as a total change in attitude towards human rights then you’ll probably never understand why people on the left having been trumpeting the importance of this for the last eight years.
quote:


the realisation that war fought against sporadic groups can't be done solely via military options.
Like invading Pakistan? Like increasing our Afghanistan troop levels?  Like asking Europe for more soldiers to assist us?

Would it be possible for troops to leave the region overnight? Since the problem has been created it needs to be dealt with in a responsible manner.

I know nothing of the Pakistan invasion the last thing I heard was the planning to give Pakistan more financial aid to deal with the problem themselves. Also the Obama policy recognises the complete waste of the Iraq war and aims to focus more on Afghanistan. Nobody chose Iraq but the previous US administration and the UK government, once there the terrorists said “What a great place to kill Westerners.” so they flooded in.

_____________________________

∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/5/2009 6:17:25 AM   
MarsBonfire


Posts: 1034
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline 		Oh, yeah, we should follow the money of campaign contributions... So how much money DID Obama take from Haliburton and Enron, anyway?

(in reply to FullCircle)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/5/2009 7:22:43 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Are you saying that Obama's "new diplomacy" is pretty much no better than the old diplomacy, as far as results go?



Much better and here's why......

The US government, and the British government for that matter, came out of that summit with pretty much as much as they could have hoped for. He's a far more shrewd operator than George Bush. He knows what he's got to do to get what he wants - for instance, let Sarkozy have his moment in the sun with the photo shoots and the dramatics......stroke his ego and you'll get what you want.

Forget the 'fiscal stimulus' objective, which was always a red-herring (no decent negotiator will lay their cards on the table from the off).

What has he achieved.?....with the help of his allies....

a) He has increased the standing of the United States. Rightly or wrongly, style or substance, people are impressed. He's laying the foundations for future gains; when he has people on board then I'm sure the United States government will be less flexible in their negotiations.

b) He has already moved the German and French governments from their position (hitherto solid position) on Afghanistan. The first steps are always the hardest.

c) He has reinforced the British government's support for the United States position. There is no reason why we should side with the US or the continental Europeans (we're different to both, and have no particular loyalty to either), but the US needs an ally in Europe; particularly as the French and German governments are forging an alliance based on shared values.

d) He has helped stave off the protectionism proposed by France and other representatives (which was the key British concern, by the way).

You may not like this, Firm, but political commentators (and I'm talking of serious political commentators who know their stuff), certainly in this country, are mightily impressed not just with Obama but the with the way the Americans pitched it.

You'd have to be extremely naive to think Obama can stroll into a world summit and take everything while giving nothing back, and you know how it is - you have to lay the foundations for future gains.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/5/2009 7:25:52 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		I agree. I think everyone with wealth should leave the country. You have a good plan there O59.

To the OP, still thinking and looking at some info before I respond. Though it seems slightly slanting, I think good intellectual discourse over things like this is what is needed.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

" as there are already wealthy people leaving the country. "







Oh,and what paradice are they moving to?......lol


Fuck`m.Don`t let the door hit`m where the good lord split`m.







_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/5/2009 7:55:40 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

quote:

How is the current TARP and bail outs any different, really, in the long run?

The difference is in numbers. The transfer of such huge amount of public funds has never taken place before. I just can not call it anything else than grand theft. The TARP is total fraud. How Obama administration hopes to get away with it?



Can you back that up with something other than your opinion?

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to awmslave)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/5/2009 7:56:53 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

Oh, yeah, we should follow the money of campaign contributions... So how much money DID Obama take from Haliburton and Enron, anyway?


Top Contributors

This table lists the top donors to this candidate in the 2008 election cycle. The organizations themselves did not donate , rather the money came from the organization's PAC, its individual members or employees or owners, and those individuals' immediate families. Organization totals include subsidiaries and affiliates.

University of California     $1,385,675
Goldman Sachs                     $980,945
Microsoft Corp                     $806,299
Harvard University               $793,460
Google Inc                            $790,564
Citigroup Inc                        $657,268
JPMorgan Chase & Co        $650,758
Stanford University              $580,904
Sidley Austin LLP               $574,938
Time Warner                        $547,951
National Amusements Inc     $541,251
WilmerHale                           $524,292
UBS AG                                $522,019
IBM Corp                              $518,557
Skadden, Arps et al                $510,274
Columbia University              $503,566
Morgan Stanley                     $490,873
US Government                    $479,956
General Electric                    $479,454
Latham & Watkins               $467,311   

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to MarsBonfire)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/5/2009 8:02:04 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

To the OP, still thinking and looking at some info before I respond.

Thank you.  Thoughtful replies are what I'm seeking.  We all certainly see enough knee-jerk condemnation and support already.


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Though it seems slightly slanting,

We all have our biases, but I tried to just set it up showing the similarities between the two Administrations in the "big picture" stuff.

The links to Obama items was just to reinforce that similarity, not to condemn him for his actions.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/5/2009 8:03:01 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		So these weren`t inividual contributers?

Nice spin.

I guess you can say the non-union carpenters association gave him money too,(my fifty bucks).lol




< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/5/2009 8:08:00 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/5/2009 8:03:31 AM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
It's astonishing a University tops the list, I wonder how that decision is in the best interest of students, or is that even a consideration at all?
It's definitely a different culture.

_____________________________

∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/5/2009 8:05:10 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

quote:

How is the current TARP and bail outs any different, really, in the long run?

The difference is in numbers. The transfer of such huge amount of public funds has never taken place before. I just can not call it anything else than grand theft. The TARP is total fraud. How Obama administration hopes to get away with it?



Can you back that up with something other than your opinion?

First, how about you backing up your opinion that you first stated, and I questioned, before you go off and start .... digging? ... into other posters' motivation?

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thr... - 4/5/2009 8:05:24 AM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

Some Roman era architecture is still used today.  Dont throw away brilliance just because of its age.  The American constitution is the model for the rest of the world. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

quote:

Try a Congress that doesnt respect 240 years of history of how their affairs are conducted, in order to push their socialist agenda.

In 1865 there were a lot of people whining about how Abe Lincoln kept them from doing "business as usual"  . 

If any business was being run the same way folks did in 1776...well...all the feather plume pens and ink pots would get pretty messy...just sayin'

Dude....seriously.............

_____________________________

Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley

(in reply to MasterShake69)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: What "Change"? (Not an Obama bashing thread) Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094