RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom?

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lusciouslips19 -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 6:11:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19 See Ng this is why I was perplexed by your retortes. You said you read it. So the info is there and this is not a criminal case but if someone is causesing this much fear and annoyance...I'm glad you understand now. It's a long, old thread; it's easy to miss a post. Assuming it's all accurate, I'm amazed that the women haven't sorted it out themselves. I've never come across a group of women who would even begin to stand for that; they'd eat him for breakfast no matter how relentless he is. I guess across the pond we dont eat doms for breakfast . We try to go through the authority channels. The basic truth is he was told off, warned etc/

julietsierra -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 6:14:32 AM)
NG, there are a LOT of details that I didn't post - both because they are not your business and because they are part of my own personal hell in dealing with this man. There are also many details I didn't post because I have a personal philosophy that says I won't speak for others. If they so choose, they can come to this thread and post their own stories. As it is, I now worry - very much - that he will pop in here, read what's been said and that I can expect, very soon, to be trapped yet again by him in a room (never touching me, so not prosecutable for those looking for the legalities) while he "explains" his actions - which, after 10 years, is really much more than I can stand. Even so, I spoke up because one person was asking how you all might actually reach this person and you were dragging HER over the coals for daring to even ask the question. juliet

NorthernGent -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 6:17:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Why is it that you feel it necessary to know the juicy details in order to answer the question of "we have a problem Dom and these are some of the types of things that have occurred as an example, how can I help him to make positive changes so this shit stops happening?"? In this thread you were asked a question. You were not asked to intercede, prosecute or enforce anything. Just to offer advice. The people involved's personal details are irrelevant in anything more than a "these are the types of incidents" way in order to be able to offer advice. Quite frankly they aren't your business. You're absolutely correct: it is none of my business. The OP asked for advice, though, and I like to know the details before arriving at a conclusion and offering advice - that's my call. I mentioned that date rape should result in jail providing there is evidence; apart from that, there wasn't enough in the OP for me. Juilet's post offered more. As said, assuming the details are there and can be substantiated, then I certainly wouldn't tolerate it; and I'm amazed that it hasn't been dealt with. quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin He came up behind me and decided to introduce himself to me by putting his arm around my back and slid his hand below my arm and cupped my breast in his hand. When I turned to twist away from that grasp he kissed me right on the mouth, hand still firmly cupping me. I had to literally take his hand in my own and remove it. I can appreciate why you wouldn't go to the law, but why exactly hasn't he been banned? Because his actions haven't been reported to those running the club, or because they've chosen to not take action?

mistoferin -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 6:32:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent I can appreciate why you wouldn't go to the law, but why exactly hasn't he been banned? Because his actions haven't been reported to those running the club, or because they've chosen to not take action? He has been banned in some of the groups (you must have missed those posts too?). Detroit, however, is a very large place. There are many groups and many people involved in BDSM (despite what one poster on here would lead you to believe). It's also quite difficult (impossible actually) to ban him from the groups that he, himself runs. While many people who are aware of his reputation opt out of attending those groups because they don't wish to support them....there is always a steady stream of fresh, new, unaware victims at the ready. So you see, while it is easy to simply cast him into the "stay away from that guy" pile...that doesn't do a damn thing to help the next unsuspecting woman. In that light, it really would be a huge positive if someone figured out a way to reach him and get him going on a better path......which is, in part, one of the very reasons why so many people have tried to do exactly that instead of just coming down on him with penalties.

julietsierra -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 6:33:23 AM)
Why wasn't he banned? Omg.. that's so easy. 1. how many threads have we seen chastizing and scrutinizing accusations made by submissives as being witch hunts, and wanting to know all sides of the story, etc? How many times have we all heard - and said - there's always more than one truth - yours, his and what's in between. (personally, someone grabbing my boob should damn well be enough, but hey... I wasn't the person deciding that) 2. How many times have we all heard and read about submissives "ganging up" on poor unsuspecting dominants and acting out past relationship issues? It happens all the time and when it's wrong, it's just plain wrong, but submissives, knowing this, are loathe to speak up 3. How many submissives have relied on their dominants to take care of things and the dominants have had a talk with someone, thinking that should do the trick? 4. Just LOOK at how this was approached even in THIS thread? I stood up. This man has already put me in a position where I was unable to leave a room because he wouldn't move out of the way (he's MUCH bigger than I am) and forced me to stay where I was - in full sight of other dominants I might add, who never heard a thing because they didn't realize what he was saying. And yes, I felt VERY threatened by his actions. In fact, I now worry that he'll be doing this again to me. Now take a new submissive who knows no one and feels like they can't rely on anyone to come to her aid. How MUCH do you think she's going to say? And that's only a FEW of the reasons the women don't speak up. Honestly, that meeting in which we all discovered we'd had the same experiences was the first time it was "in our faces" so to speak that he'd been doing this for so long with so many people - even WE didn't believe the stories we'd heard from time to time throughout the years. Most of us were just counting ourselves as lucky he'd moved on. That night was the night that women around here stopped being silent. That night was the beginning point of people voting with their feet and being loud about why it was happening. And that's when the hosts started to listen. I'm embarrassed I didn't pay more attention. Im embarrassed that every time he was hitting on someone else, my overriding thought was "at least it's not me this time." I'm stunned - as I have been from the beginning - that this has gone on for so long. But honestly, I understand it very well. And it's because we've all - you and me and everyone else - cultivated an environment where it was possible for this to happen. Since his banning, hosts around here are taking things much more seriously and trying to find a balance between the fear of buying into someone being wrongly accused and taking seriously the complaints of submissives who are just trying to live their lives along with everyone else. And for that, I'm grateful juliet

NorthernGent -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 6:36:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra NG, there are a LOT of details that I didn't post - both because they are not your business and because they are part of my own personal hell in dealing with this man. There are also many details I didn't post because I have a personal philosophy that says I won't speak for others. If they so choose, they can come to this thread and post their own stories. As it is, I now worry - very much - that he will pop in here, read what's been said and that I can expect, very soon, to be trapped yet again by him in a room (never touching me, so not prosecutable for those looking for the legalities) while he "explains" his actions - which, after 10 years, is really much more than I can stand. Even so, I spoke up because one person was asking how you all might actually reach this person and you were dragging HER over the coals for daring to even ask the question. juliet I certainly wasn't dragging the OP over the coals. I was simply asking for details and where those details aren't forthcoming it appears to be a character assasination (in my eyes). But, on reflection, I should have read the thread before jumping in with that comment - my mistake. A few details would have given the OP a completely different complexion. I think most of the earlier comments were agreeing that date rape is more than just over-steppng the mark, but there wasn't a great deal else in the OP to support the claims. I appreciate the reluctance to give details, but that doesn't change the fact that accusations without details will always be challenged in the interests of fairness and I suppose liberty, to which many of us aspire I'd assume. Yet, as said, the character assasination comment before reading the rest of the thread wasn't fair on my part - apologies to LadyH. I'm trying to find some sort of comparison from my experiences, and I'm struggling. As said, I'm gobsmacked that this has been tolerated for so long. We all make mistakes - once is tolerable, twice is beyond the pale. I certainly can't see any option other than to ban him (assuming all of the details are above board). It seems that some people have to hit rock bottom before they begin to make amends - banning him will probably do him a favour.

julietsierra -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 6:44:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent As said, I'm gobsmacked that this has been tolerated for so long. NG... so are the submissives. And because of this, up until he was banned, we honestly thought no one would ever do a thing ; that this was just something we had to tolerate and just work to avoid. I can't begin to tell you how that has affected so many of us. juliet

colouredin -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 6:51:04 AM)
Such a shame that it comes down to orientation rather than just people. it kinda goes with the other thread about whether they are valued members of the community or whatever. The problem is I sense a lot of defeatism too and I dunno where that comes from, you have to at least believe in yourself even if you feel others are judging based on your self defined label

julietsierra -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 6:55:26 AM)
I do and for us, we stopped attending functions. It came down to the fact that we can't control what others do, but we can make decisions for ourselves... and when someone's threatening and a) the systems supposedly in place don't work and b) that person just won't stop, then all we could do is just not attend. juliet

Legman1 -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 6:56:32 AM)
You can't change people. You can only take steps to protect yourself from their shit.

NorthernGent -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 6:57:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin It's also quite difficult (impossible actually) to ban him from the groups that he, himself runs. While many people who are aware of his reputation opt out of attending those groups because they don't wish to support them....there is always a steady stream of fresh, new, unaware victims at the ready. So you see, while it is easy to simply cast him into the "stay away from that guy" pile...that doesn't do a damn thing to help the next unsuspecting woman. In that light, it really would be a huge positive if someone figured out a way to reach him and get him going on a better path......which is, in part, one of the very reasons why so many people have tried to do exactly that instead of just coming down on him with penalties. Tricky, then. It seems that he isn't about to change, no matter the support he is offered. Perhaps trying to help is exacerbating the problem. I mean, assuming it's all above board, he's not the most reasonable of individuals; I doubt that reason will work with him and he may take it as a sign of acceptance rather than a request to change. In that case, I'm afraid there's not a great deal that can be done except place faith in people's capacity to take wise decisions for themselves (assuming you're not prepared to go to the police). I suppose you could always sit him down in front of the women concerned, so they can instruct him on the impact of his behaviour, but this assumes he is reasonable and is prepared to put his ego to one side. Probably worth a try, but it sounds like he needs more than an appeal to his gentler side. I would agree that everyone can change, but I doubt that the kindness of the OP and others, is the solution in this case.

colouredin -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 7:08:32 AM)
Gosh I really wish that someone would go to the police, though of course it is easier said than done.

mistoferin -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 7:09:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent I suppose you could always sit him down in front of the women concerned, so they can instruct him on the impact of his behaviour, but this assumes he is reasonable and is prepared to put his ego to one side. It would also be contingent on whether or not you could actually get the women to do such a thing. Some of these women are actually fearful of him at this point, as julietsierra expressed, and a confrontation of that sort may be more than they could handle. I know that it's easy to say that they "should" be able to....but even though I don't personally ever feel that kind of fear (well it would take a LOT to make me fearful anyway) I do try to understand how it feels to others.

LadyPact -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 7:14:35 AM)
I'm about to piss a lot of people off. I read this thread. Yes, the whole thing. I'm going to tell you that I have the same question that the.dark. did about five pages ago. Why did the community wait so long to do anything about this? I'm telling you, I just don't get it. LadyH, the answer to your question about how to help this person is to show him the problem with his ways and lay it out that his actions have consequences. Yep, that means banning him if he doesn't know how to conduct himself. Obviously, that's happened now. Good! I honestly don't have an issue with people being banned from clubs, groups, or organizations if they don't know how to conduct themselves. Like was said, it's not like you're killing him. You're just refusing to tolerate the behavior. A few of the responders in this thread have said the solution is to stop talking to this person or avoid him. Sorry, that's not the answer. The answer is that you do talk to him. If that doesn't work, you start talking to the organizers of said event in a language that they understand, i.e. "If you allow this to continue, I, and My money, will no longer be here." I get why the females who have had issues with this person and didn't want to speak up. I really do. But every female within your group who put up with it and said nothing had a hand in allowing it to happen to someone else. It was only when you all started talking, and finding out how big a problem this really was did it start to have a resolution. And, I'll tell you something else. While there have been moments in this thread that some people were raked over the coals because they were female, there were times that same thing happened because some were male. Sorry, but I happen to think that a few of the male Doms who came along in this thread have pretty good ways of dealing with males who aren't welcome. They were asked what they would do and they responded that the person would be shown the door. I am at such a loss at why any community feels they need they have to accept anyone and everyone's behavior just because that person happens to be kinky.

julietsierra -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 7:20:43 AM)
LadyPact: Well, I'm one of the "show him the damn door" (and for my own personal pleasure - with my foot) crowd. Part of the problem is also the whole notion of "I don't listen to gossip"... a fine idea but when the "gossip" is a relating of actual situations that happens to individuals, it's more of the devaluation game - and I'll admit to being a part of that process - even as I was wishing someone would just hear ME. To those dominants who said "boot him".. I'm right there with em. Knowing this man the way I do, booting him is the ONLY thing he's going to listen to anyway, cause like everything else, no one believes until something proves to them that they should have paid attention. Even so, what I find astounding is that he STILL is not taking ownership of what's going on, preferring instead to claim that what people are hearing more of are just lies and that he's the injured party. It takes a LOT to get banned around here and to reach that level, something more has to be going on than simply lies. And by the way... you didn't piss me off. As far as I'm concerned, you're right on the money. juliet

NorthernGent -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 7:21:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra trying to find a balance between the fear of buying into someone being wrongly accused and taking seriously the complaints I would have thought that anything less would be a recipe for chaos. quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra That night was the night that women around here stopped being silent. That night was the beginning point of people voting with their feet and being loud about why it was happening. And that's when the hosts started to listen. In exceptional circumstances, I'd suggest that shouting loud enough and not taking no for an answer, is part of the battle. If you're suggesting that losing business made all the difference, then it sounds like the moral code of these places isn't all that moral. Seems to me that this is one of those cases where the law is the answer.

julietsierra -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 7:29:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra trying to find a balance between the fear of buying into someone being wrongly accused and taking seriously the complaints I would have thought that anything less would be a recipe for chaos. quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra That night was the night that women around here stopped being silent. That night was the beginning point of people voting with their feet and being loud about why it was happening. And that's when the hosts started to listen. In exceptional circumstances, I'd suggest that shouting loud enough and not taking no for an answer, is part of the battle. If you're suggesting that losing business made all the difference, then it sounds like the moral code of these places isn't all that moral. Seems to me that this is one of those cases where the law is the answer. Well NG, considering I was the first one to speak up with my own personal story, I'll be the first one to answer why I didn't go the legal route. You can lambast me for that too I guess. I have three kids that I have custody of. I also have an ex-husband who would LOVE to have custody of those kids. While one of them is now older and custody issues no longer pertain to him, I still have one child who, while an adult, is one of my dependants. She always will be. Her father would prefer to just kinda shut her up in the house and pretend she doesn't exist. I also have a 16 year old who is struggling to NOT become like his father. So far, he's doing well. I also am in a position where my continued employment - and therefore, my ability to provide for the children I have - is dependant on my involvement in this life not being something of public knowledge. For some inexplicable reason, parents tend to be leery of people they consider to be "perverts" being around their children. So, if I went public, I could lose my certificate and as such, my ability to do my job. So trivial as all that may sound, I make decisions to go to the police based on that, and despite 10 years of harrassment, in the interests of protecting my children and keeping my job, I don't. Yes, I know... it's weak of me. But that's what the situation is for MANY people who are participating in this life. The police is the obvious and perhaps logical response from an objective point of view. From the view of one mom just trying to do what's right for her kids, while still being true to herself, even if that means the choice is to NOT involve the police ... that's the choice I have to make. But it still doesn't explain why this one man's actions have gone on for so long with, up till now, no discernable actions from a whole "community" of people. Some of these folks I have been very close to, and they've been in a position to effect change and didn't... which is what leads me to believe that on the whole, submissives are really not taken very seriously at all, or at the least, are trivialized to the point of doing nothing until it affected people's wallets. juliet

NorthernGent -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 7:35:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra You can lambast me for that too I guess. Not at all. I would do the same in your situation - weigh up the consequences and make a decision in my best interests. So, you're left with trying to reason with him, which seems to have failed; or ban him, swerve him and forget about him; or have him threatened, which sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.

julietsierra -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 7:40:48 AM)
They finally banned him. I'm not of the mind to attempt to educate at all. Others are... I understand their rationale. I just don't subscribe to it. juliet

lusciouslips19 -> RE: Male doms--how do you help a problem dom? (4/11/2009 7:42:32 AM)
SO who here like me still think that its unconcious sexism? I mean after all rape victims are raked over the coals. Harrassment charges go unheaded by police as he has to do something before we will get involved. Is it really just about this guys money or the fact that its thefemales word against the man and we need more proof? I am not saying this is done on a concious level. Did you know that in Islamic court a man will only be convicted of rape if there were other men present to witness it? And people seem to be more interested inprotecting the rights of the accused as opposed to the well being of the victims.

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