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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/11/2009 3:21:23 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69
Have a few ships slow moving ships sailing by Somalia filled with mercenaries having no cargo at all.  When the pirates attack they get a nasty deadly surprise that solves the problem permanently.  

The remaining pirates that didn't participate in the attack wouldn't know if any future ships they try to hijack is a trap or a normal cargo ship. 

That assumes these attacks are opportunistic more likely they'll watch cargo ships come and go in ports around the world over a long period of time to establish which ones are the soft targets. They probably also have an intelligence network which has infiltrated members of port authorities. It would probably cost more than the insurance premiums to have these ships with concealed weapons floating about on the random chance a pirate will target one.

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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/11/2009 4:41:57 AM   
LadyEllen


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Meanwhile, back in the real world.......... this ship is very, very unusual to have a US crew aboard, indeed very unusual to be US flagged. Methinks there may be something else other than food aid aboard for it to be crewed and flagged like this rather than having the usual motley crew of underpaid south east Asians and/or east Europeans and Panamanian flagged. And these US mariners, by the speedy manner in which they retook the ship, indeed in the manner they resisted at all - well, I'd wager theyre not your run of the mill crew - which again suggests something a little unusual on board that might have warranted a "special" crew - or maybe even nothing really on board and this is the first of a decoy fleet but things havent gone entirely to plan.

The problems of arming these vessels, or having armed force aboard, are clear, and theyre not entirely about insurance companies' reluctance to provide cover, ports' reluctance to welcome vessels so equipped or crewed or other such factors. However satisfying this particular instance, about which many questions remain to be answered, a general policy or even a selective policy of arming vessels and/or crew, and/or a policy of heavily armed decoy ships only raises the ante - the pirates will come in more numbers and more heavily armed and with an expectation to fight and kill to secure a vessel.

And when we consider the usual crews of these ships - poorly paid (if paid at all in some cases) third world and second world mariners who remain at sea to provide for their otherwise destitute families, do we really think that they would be willing to undertake the additional risk to their life and limb from engaging in combat to defend the vessel? Would you defend your factory or office with the risk of death or serious injury if you were being paid what you are now? How about if you were being paid say a few dollars a day?

And of course, there is a hell of a difference between having a gun, being able to operate that gun safely and accurately and being able to operate it safely and accurately when someone is shooting back. Throw into that the somewhat urban environment on board a ship and one has a recipe for disaster with untrained or undertrained crew, frightened witless and engaging in the spray and pray school of combat tactics - as likely to kill one another as any pirate.

So here is a wild idea to undermine the piracy. Not popular for many I'm sure, but worth a try given nothing else is working. The pirates are doing all this because they live in a country which is a sack of shit - they need the money basically. Some of that money no doubt goes into hands we'd rather it didnt. How about we recruit the pirates - or some of them - pay them handsomely to work for us to stop the others attacking merchant shipping (the insurers would pay for it no doubt), provide intelligence etc. And of those remaining in their piratical lifestyle we offer rewards to rat them out and we send a few squadrons of attack helicopters to pay them a visit at home. Those we turn win as they no longer have to risk their lives for their incomes, we win in that the piracy is reduced and then eliminated - the only losers are those who retain their gangsterism on the high seas.

And once we have destroyed those remaining as pirates - and we know who the others are since they now work for us....

E

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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/12/2009 7:47:22 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Looks like the US handle the situation as it should be handled. No ransoms paid, just three dead pirates and 1 live captain.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5juHtLRZ1oWZW0i4NkwPI3LWc4oPQD97H93D81

Looks like the pirates are vowing to retaliate for this.

Big debate on arming crews http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/13/world/13shipping.html?hp

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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/12/2009 8:56:14 PM   
kdsub


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This situation just shows the uselessness of the United Nations. Bush was wrong on most things but dead right on the UN.

I wonder what would happen if the US demanded the UN act against the Somali pirates or they will kick them out New York and withdraw their support and membership?

Without the US the UN will be irrelevant and collapse from lack of funding...hell we could use the money we waste on our economy.

Butch

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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/12/2009 9:16:11 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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Oh, I don't know. Our dues only make up 22% of their annual budget, and they seemed to get along just fine during all those years we weren't even paying our dues at all.

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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/12/2009 9:16:30 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Looks like the pirates are vowing to retaliate for this.

Big debate on arming crews http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/13/world/13shipping.html?hp

Mounting a couple of Dillon Aero M134Ds on the fore and aft weather decks would take care of any potential piracy issues with a quickness.

~stef


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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/12/2009 9:31:38 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

This situation just shows the uselessness of the United Nations. Bush was wrong on most things but dead right on the UN.

I wonder what would happen if the US demanded the UN act against the Somali pirates or they will kick them out New York and withdraw their support and membership?

Without the US the UN will be irrelevant and collapse from lack of funding...hell we could use the money we waste on our economy.

Butch


Butch, I think something Northwards of 90% of Americans would agree with you.
The U.N." would have a couple of "high teas" to "study" the problem then a year later come out with a "proclaimation"
Then if they kept doing it they'd tell them not to do it anymore. When that failed they'd really get angry and tell them not to do it "again!"
"And we're really going to mean it this time!"
The Taxpayers in this country need to get angry and tell our govt to get us out of the "U.N." and knock off all this "foreign aid" stuff!

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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/12/2009 9:44:52 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Oh, I don't know. Our dues only make up 22% of their annual budget, and they seemed to get along just fine during all those years we weren't even paying our dues at all.



lol... only 22 percent huh... And what were they getting along doing may I ask?

It is time an American President puts them on the spot...really demand action and give them a time limit. You can say all you want but if the US pulls out the UN will fall... no doubt.

Butch

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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/12/2009 10:18:22 PM   
Vendaval


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Fast Reply - I am hoping that the insurance companies will reconsider their policies for merchant ships and work towards a solution that allows the ship's crew to either arm themselves or have the shipping companies contract security for the freighters.  Anyone know more of the specifics of the international laws for foreign merchant ships docking in ports and how much security they are allowed? 



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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/12/2009 10:22:00 PM   
Owner59


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I predict a navel presence off Somalia for a time.

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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/12/2009 10:41:39 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I predict a navel presence off Somalia for a time.

hee ...

You are a little behind the times, Owner. There has been a naval presence there for quite a while, already.

You might consider reading more news, and less political commentary.

Firm

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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 6:16:49 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Several countries are already lending naval vessels to patrol the waters. Big ocean there though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I predict a navel presence off Somalia for a time.


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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 6:47:44 AM   
Sanity


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Turns out, we've got these poor misunderstood pirates all wrong! They're only Earth-friendly ecologists, trying to save the planet. That's all!


quote:


'Toxic waste' behind Somali piracy


Somali pirates have accused European firms of dumping toxic waste off the Somali coast and are demanding an $8m ransom for the return of a Ukranian ship they captured, saying the money will go towards cleaning up the waste.

The ransom demand is a means of "reacting to the toxic waste that has been continually dumped on the shores of our country for nearly 20 years", Januna Ali Jama, a spokesman for the pirates, based in the semi-autonomous region of Puntland, said.

"The Somali coastline has been destroyed, and we believe this money is nothing compared to the devastation that we have seen on the seas."

The pirates are holding the MV Faina, a Ukrainian ship carrying tanks and military hardware, off Somalia's northern coast.

According to the International Maritime Bureau, 61 attacks by pirates have been reported since the start of the year.

While money is the primary objective of the hijackings, claims of the continued environmental destruction off Somalia's coast have been largely ignored by the regions's maritime authorities.


Full article here


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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 6:58:57 AM   
camille65


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From: Austin Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
<snipped>

And when we consider the usual crews of these ships - poorly paid (if paid at all in some cases) third world and second world mariners who remain at sea to provide for their otherwise destitute families, do we really think that they would be willing to undertake the additional risk to their life and limb from engaging in combat to defend the vessel? Would you defend your factory or office with the risk of death or serious injury if you were being paid what you are now? How about if you were being paid say a few dollars a day?

So here is a wild idea to undermine the piracy. Not popular for many I'm sure, but worth a try given nothing else is working. The pirates are doing all this because they live in a country which is a sack of shit - they need the money basically. Some of that money no doubt goes into hands we'd rather it didnt. How about we recruit the pirates - or some of them - pay them handsomely to work for us to stop the others attacking merchant shipping (the insurers would pay for it no doubt), provide intelligence etc. And of those remaining in their piratical lifestyle we offer rewards to rat them out and we send a few squadrons of attack helicopters to pay them a visit at home. Those we turn win as they no longer have to risk their lives for their incomes, we win in that the piracy is reduced and then eliminated - the only losers are those who retain their gangsterism on the high seas.

And once we have destroyed those remaining as pirates - and we know who the others are since they now work for us....

E


That has been my thought as well. Along with tackling the root problem of why they are resorting to this tactic. They are a desperate people doing desperate things at a high cost for every one.


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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 7:06:49 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Looks like the pirates are vowing to retaliate for this.

Big debate on arming crews http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/13/world/13shipping.html?hp

Mounting a couple of Dillon Aero M134Ds on the fore and aft weather decks would take care of any potential piracy issues with a quickness.

~stef



Which assumes we all know what a Dillon Aero M134D is.

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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 7:11:26 AM   
SilverMark


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Perhaps armed escorts instead that do not pull into port unless it is one of our over seas bases or friendly to America with effectivly trained Naval personnel? At least through those particular waters...might be cost prohibitive but, would answer the international concerns as long as the keep the 7 mile distance to shore and could provide advanced training to our naval forces at the same time?

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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 7:11:43 AM   
kittinSol


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You are correct, Camille. The majority of the pirates are fishermen: piracy is a last resort for these people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_pirate 

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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 7:14:55 AM   
GreedyTop


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Dillon Aero

Looks like FUN!!!


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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 7:15:08 AM   
servantforuse


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I have to wonder what is going through the mind of the remaining pirate this morning after watching his three cohorts taken out by our Navy snipers. As most know I am not an Obama supporter, but he did the right thing in letting the Navy do what had to be done.. 

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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 7:16:51 AM   
kittinSol


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Rambobama.

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