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RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 9:18:25 AM

UncleNasty

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Pirates, also legitimately referred to as "privateers," have been around for centuries. Frequently operating with the blessing of some state, and in many cases even funded and supported through back channels by that state. In the Carribbean and the coasts of both Central and South America for instance piracy was one of the ways the lesser states of France, England, etc., were able to wreak havoc on the superior navy of Spain. Spain itself had used privateers (pirates) to explore and pillage the new world with the basic goal of securing new resources and wealth.

Pirates and privateers themselves made conscious choices in their selection of this profession. Dangerous? Yep. Potentially deadly? Yep. They considered the comparitive freedom and egalitarian "system" to be much preferred to the alternatives - prison, indentured servitude and even slavery. The navies of most states at the time didn't treat their "sailors" all that well either so many simply jumped ship and signed on with privateers. But not all pirates came from such disadvantaged and dire circumstances. Given the "primo-geniture" structure of inheritence at the time there were 2nd, 3rd and 4th sons that ventured out in these ways as well.

There was also the opportunity of pretty extreme personal enrichment. Typically the ill booten gotty, er, um, ill gotten booty was shared in ways quite favorable to all. At least it far exceeded the wages, or lack thereof, in the alternatives. If the ventures were sponsored by a state, the state also got a cut.

Threatening these modern day pirates with the possibility of severe punishments, or even death, will likely not have much of a deterrant effect. The former should not be interpreted as reason to eschew protection for the crews, cargos and ships. That is still a good idea.

In reading the NYT story of the rescue I am quite impressed by the marksmanship of the snipers. Shooting from a moving, undulating vessel at sea to a target that is is also moving and undualting target on another vessel at sea - at any distance whatsoever - is surely a difficult thing to do.

Uncle Nasty, Aaaaaarrrrgggggg

PS Remember, Inernational Talk Like a Pirate Day is September 19th.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 61

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 9:31:44 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

In reading the NYT story of the rescue I am quite impressed by the marksmanship of the snipers. Shooting from a moving, undulating vessel at sea to a target that is is also moving and undualting target on another vessel at sea - at any distance whatsoever - is surely a difficult thing to do.

Uncle Nasty, Aaaaaarrrrgggggg

I thought the same... and not just one chance of failure but three and still took them out clean...love to know what weapons they were using.

Butch

(in reply to UncleNasty)

Post #: 62

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 9:42:27 AM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

And if this had been Bush you would have been applauding his heroic, decisive action.

Why not? I'm applauding it now WITH you!

However, I doubt where it Bush you'd have the same rationalized "they are 'common criminals' position.

Of course - you could play the similarly desperate 'race-card' when your current opinion doesn't match previously given statements under a different Administration. Of course we don't know the position of this President. He's still waiting to check the polls and make sure all the words are right on the TelePrompTer before giving his position. Who knows - maybe since they failed the fishermen/pirates will be rewarded with a few Billion dollars in US taxpayer acquired 'stimulus'.

What happened to the use of the US and the 'Unified World' in light of this unilateral US action? This occurred in international waters and he order the killing of these fishermen/'part-time' pirates. North Korea fires a missile over the heads of Japan and the Administration's position is tolerance and chatting. A commercial ship and one man held hostage and 'shoot them in the head' is the order given. Which one do you considered a disproportionate response?

When it comes to hypocrites you don't need a sniper shooting in the dark - a mirror work perfectly to expose them and their agenda based rationalizations.

Merc, you're really starting to go off the deep end here.

Your hatred for Obama is overwhelming your common sense.

It's likely that this had nothing to do with the President, and more than likely he heard about it after the fact, like us all.

This was a decision by the captain of the Bainbridge.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 63

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 9:45:18 AM

BOUNTYHUNTER

Posts: 9259
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I like the rest of you is delighted that all hands are safe onboard,I know about captivity as I was once held as a prisoner in Nam for 6 months before I was able to escape, now I worry about the 500 hundred or so left behind, are they going to suffer more since most are from poor country's and you know the shipping company's aren't going to pay huge ransomers demanded for them.As I see it this isn't one big organize effort but several clans from different villages doing their thing..are we ready to invade another country or start another war to end this highjacking?????...This needs to be an organized effort from ALL country's having ships passing Thur this large body of water any how glad for the crew of this one ship.....ps an after thought..I know the laws for firearms are different in every country but at least some side arms would be a big help in trained hands...Herldo yacht was shadowed and in danger of high jacking on his last trip Thur theses water and some side arm practice a jugs floating was enough is change the minds of those ships laying behind in waiting,he had to buy theses weapons in Israel after leaving his last port of call..bounty

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Post #: 64

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 9:46:29 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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Piracy is a desperate measure by desperate people. If the world community hadn't turned a blind eye to the exactions committed against Somalia and its population by greedy criminals (dumping nuclear waste, medical waste, chemical waste, fishing illegally in the country's water), we might not be where we are today.

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Post #: 65

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 9:49:57 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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I heard they were standing on an aft structure, protruding from the stern.Part of the keel or a platform, while the lifeboat was under tow 50-60 feet away.

For these guys,like shooting fish in a barrel.

I like that the President let the Navy handle it with orders to intervening if the Capt.`s life was threatened(directly), giving them every chance to work it out without bloodshed.It`s the noble,civil way to handle desperate situations.

I like that that peevs conservatives, who seem quick to shoot and slow to ask questions.

And to kittin`s point.I believe President Obama will address the underlaying problems in Somalia as well as do what`s necessary in the short term,like in this instance.

This multi pronged, carrot and stick approach will no doubt also piss off conservatives,to my great ~comforture~.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/13/2009 9:54:26 AM >

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Post #: 66

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 10:04:27 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Piracy is a desperate measure by desperate people. If the world community hadn't turned a blind eye to the exactions committed against Somalia and its population by greedy criminals (dumping nuclear waste, medical waste, chemical waste, fishing illegally in the country's water), we might not be where we are today.

kittinSol I have more sympathy for the terrorist than Somali pirates. At least they are fighting for a way of life...even if misguided. You don't hear the pirates demand the international community stop the illegal dumping and fishing of their waters. They are just a bunch of greedy merciless thugs out for blood money.

The true fisherman of Somali want the pirates gone.. They are afraid of retaliation by the US and other nations but there is so little law in their country they are powerless. I don't buy the noble warrior against injustice line you have thrown out. They are just lawless thugs hopped up on drugs.

I do believe they are victims…but victims of a barbaric way of life they have been raised in. The fault is within them and their way of life... not the rest of the world they are terrorizing.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/13/2009 10:07:02 AM >

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 67

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 10:06:38 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

Merc, you're really starting to go off the deep end here.
Your hatred for Obama is overwhelming your common sense.
It's likely that this had nothing to do with the President, and more than likely he heard about it after the fact, like us all.
This was a decision by the captain of the Bainbridge

Is your position "off the deep end"? If not, why should my agreement with putting a bullet into the heads of "common criminals" be seen as such? Mine is a position of "hatred" of Obama and your's approval of him although both are the same? How do you rationalize that?

Our only disagreement is that our President wasn't informed and out of the loop. A military action in international waters that has "nothing to do with the President"? Come on now - this isn't a military prison in a war zone. However, come to think of it, I think it was your position that President Bush approved and gave the order for the picture pose in Abu Graib for his Presidential library. However in this instance where military snipers aboard a US military ship acted on orders from the Captain President Obama was too busy with the White House egg roll and heard it "after the fact"? THAT you believe! Incredible and hilarious!

You need to keep your focus on blind acceptance. Thinking independently and having an informed opinion based upon reality and projecting out of actions isn't conducive to ongoing support of this Administration. In this case, where putting a bullet in the heads of a common criminals was the outcome, you are all for it. Good for you~! Glad you and others in support of this have come to that conclusion. I've always wanted criminals to be captured and punished. I'm willing to extend that to support of your 'bullet in the head' policy. Maybe someday an issue will arise when you come and support my fundamental position albeit without the terminal recommendation that I may recommend. - Who knows?

My post was to clarify and benchmark. Lets see how long and under what circumstances you support the same position in the future. This time you document your support of a position that, when I reflect it back, you identify as personifying a "hatred for Obama" - You hate him too?

Actually its not that incredible really; as I've said - a requirement of Administration support.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 68

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 10:32:43 AM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Our only disagreement is that our President wasn't informed and out of the loop. A military action in international waters that has "nothing to do with the President"? Come on now - this isn't a military prison in a war zone. However, come to think of it, I think it was your position that President Bush approved and gave the order for the picture pose in Abu Graib for his Presidential library. However in this instance where military snipers aboard a US military ship acted on orders from the Captain President Obama was too busy with the White House egg roll and heard it "after the fact"? THAT you believe! Incredible and hilarious.

Hilarious only if you insist on ignoring any facts not consistent with your rationalizations.

Two very different situations. The first, with Bush, an institutionalized policy that occurred over a long period of time.

The second, with Obama, a quickly developing situation that, as I said, the President wasn't likely aware till after the fact.

quote:

You need to keep your focus on blind acceptance. Thinking independently and having an informed opinion based upon reality and projecting out of actions isn't conducive to ongoing support of this Administration. In this case, where putting a bullet in the heads of a common criminals was the outcome, you are all for it. Good for you~! Glad you and others in support of this have come to that conclusion. I've always wanted criminals to be captured and punished. I'm willing to extend that to support of your 'bullet in the head' policy. Maybe someday an issue will arise when you come and support my fundamental position albeit without the terminal recommendation that I may recommend. - Who knows?

There is a difference between executing criminals and killing those who are about to take the life of an innocent hostage.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 4/13/2009 10:34:21 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 69

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 11:09:21 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

Two very different situations. The first, with Bush, an institutionalized policy that occurred over a long period of time.

No problem - I guess since we are still in the forming of the "institutionalized policy" of Obama. This case establishes an institutional policy of using military forces to shoot in the head any fishermen/pirates on the high seas holding for ransom the captain of a commercial vehicle in international waters.

quote:

The second, with Obama, a quickly developing situation that, as I said, the President wasn't likely aware till after the fact.

Did you just start reading about this today? How long ago was the ship boarded by these "common criminals"? You define the time and the conclusion as "quickly developing"? Beyond rationalization that position requires ignoring the reality of on board video, infrared and heat cameras, instant communication, and real time satellite pictures.

That's some some 'kool-aid' to be drinking to have your rationalized position maintained on a belief that the President wasn't aware! If/when he ever does address the situation you're hoping he says he found out the same time as you did?! That's another difference between us. I hope to hell he knew, approved, and authorized; as ANY 'Commander and Chief' should do liking the results of those in his charge or not. It's called integrity and living up to the responsibility of the office. I can't belief your biggest hope is that Obama doesn't have any.

quote:

There is a difference between executing criminals and killing those who are about to take the life of an innocent hostage.

Now wait - you just said that the "threat" of taking "innocent life" was sufficient. I know you need to avoid applying similar logic to the other referenced situations I gave, but do I hear the distinctive "beep-beep-beep-beep" of a position backing up?

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 70

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 11:16:29 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Piracy is a desperate measure by desperate people. If the world community hadn't turned a blind eye to the exactions committed against Somalia and its population by greedy criminals (dumping nuclear waste, medical waste, chemical waste, fishing illegally in the country's water), we might not be where we are today.

I basically agree, but unfortunately where we are today is where we are. And right now, these desperate people are kidnapping and murdering innocent people on a daily basis. I'm all for the world community addressing the underlying issues and thereby trying to prevent this problem in the future, but for the immediate moment, the problem needs to b stopped. And that calls for harsh measures, up to and including using military force to kill them when necessary. My sympathy for their circumstances ends at the point where they begin harming innocent people.

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Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
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(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 71

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 11:19:13 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

Panda, having knowledge of the situation doesn't mean one condones it - agreed.

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Post #: 72

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 11:28:06 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Panda, having knowledge of the situation doesn't mean one condones it - agreed.

Sometimes understanding the circumstances that drove someone to do what they did only makes it all the more painful to do what must be done in response.

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 73

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 11:42:49 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

I'm sure you're not arguing that it's better to be oblivious to the facts because it makes pressing the trigger easier.

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Post #: 74

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 12:04:49 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

You're right, I'm not.

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Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 75

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 12:08:21 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
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From: United States
Status: offline

No Kittin,I don't think he is arguing that.......though I wouldn't put such an argument past some posters.
One such poster started a thread asking "what do you call three Somali pirates at the bottom of the Indian Ocean"...of course the punch line was predictable ...not funny but predictable.
The DammedPanda is often wrong on most issues of importance(LOL,sorry couldn't resist Panda) but he is actually rather reasonable.

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(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 76

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 3:00:52 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
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Nice spin you are putting on this to debate those that oppose your political views.

Those that use deadly force to take property, or hostages should realize that their lives will likely be forfeit. Negotiations had been tried, but of course the hostage takers wanted cash, transportation, etc.

No more or less was done to them, than any US citizen that had done this at a bank on US soil.

If the pirates risk go up, and profits go down, then they will likely switch to something else.

As far as to the why and where for's of these pirates, let that be addressed as a seperate issue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

These 'simple fishermen' supplementing their meager existence by piracy need to know - as common criminals - a bullet to the head is what this Administration will do - just like any other .

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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Post #: 77

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 4:11:38 PM

piratecommander

Posts: 895
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty
Pirates, also legitimately referred to as "privateers,"

Wrong and that is insulting to even suggest.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty
Spain itself had used privateers (pirates) to explore and pillage the new world with the basic goal of securing new resources and wealth.

Correct,only if you remove the bracketed word.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty
Pirates and privateers themselves made conscious choices in their selection of this profession. Dangerous? Yep. Potentially deadly? Yep. They considered the comparitive freedom and egalitarian "system" to be much preferred to the alternatives - prison, indentured servitude and even slavery.

But you place this ... rather curiously in the past tense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty
Threatening these modern day pirates with the possibility of severe punishments, or even death, will likely not have much of a deterrant effect.

Damned right, if piracy was not offering a better quality of life it would not be happening,quality of life for the Somali is worth looking into before anyone decides to take the "gung ho" piss.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty
In reading the NYT story of the rescue I am quite impressed by the marksmanship of the snipers.

I was really impressed with both their patience (they must have waited and waited and waited) and the fact that they nailed the targets then came up with an explanation to fit the world media expectations,not that anyone in the US seems to be a fan of the idea but maybe Obama should be talking to China?

The problem would be over in a week if that happened.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty
PS Remember, Inernational Talk Like a Pirate Day is September 19th.

One day ! ... must be "International" then....does it mean I get a day off?

Pirate

(in reply to UncleNasty)

Post #: 78

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 4:41:04 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

No more or less was done to them, than any US citizen that had done this at a bank on US soil.

Unlike a "bank" or even say an Embassy in Iran, this was NOT "US soil" and these 'pirates' were teenagers, in a powerless boat, holding small arms in the middle of the night in lifeboat. Worthy adversary and target of US military vessel and navy seals?

quote:

Nice spin you are putting on this to debate those that oppose your political views.

So pointing out the campaign rhetoric and 'ideals' of global cooperation and chatting to deal with global issues is now "spin" - interesting.

Wouldn't there be more spin required to support and applaud this "bullet in the head" of a teen-aged "common criminal" who in the past would see this as nothing more than US Imperialism? How is my agreeing with the action, consistent with previous representations made to "prosecute all the lawbreakers" my spin? Granted I didn't go as far as others and find the need for deadly force so necessary, but its more of a spin from those now accepting and celebrating this occurrence, who voted for him hoping he would actually use "world consensus" before implementing action.

I know full well the supporters have had to 'spin' a long way. They used to think that additional US foreign troop deployments and intervention would be over. Now they stay in support of these actions and remain spinning to support such diametrically opposing actions such as the escalation and deployment of more troops to Afghanistan by an Administration elected to reduce the US military presence throughout the world. Now the rationalization behind that support requires the spin usually found only in one of Iran's very busy centrifuges.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 79

RE: American mariners retake ship from Somalian pirates... - 4/13/2009 4:57:40 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

No more or less was done to them, than any US citizen that had done this at a bank on US soil.

Unlike a "bank" or even say an Embassy in Iran, this was NOT "US soil" and these 'pirates' were teenagers, in a powerless boat, holding small arms in the middle of the night in lifeboat. Worthy adversary and target of US military vessel and navy seals?

Use of threat of death to a hostage is the same in all places, as far as I am concerned. If we are going to remove the threat why might as well use the best.

quote:

quote:

Nice spin you are putting on this to debate those that oppose your political views.

So pointing out the campaign rhetoric and 'ideals' of global cooperation and chatting to deal with global issues is now "spin" - interesting.

Yeah it is spin, to twist (see spin) things somewhat to bring about a point. Spin is not the same as inaccurate information.

quote:

Wouldn't there be more spin required to support and applaud this "bullet in the head" of a teen-aged "common criminal" who in the past would see this as nothing more than US Imperialism?

That would be pointing out hypocricy, which you are doing but you do not have to twist things as you are doing. It detracts from what I believe is a good point, but I recommend a slightly altered method of communication delivery.

quote:

How is my agreeing with the action, consistent with previous representations made to "prosecute all the lawbreakers" my spin? Granted I didn't go as far as others and find the need for deadly force so necessary, but its more of a spin from those now accepting and celebrating this occurrence, who voted for him hoping he would actually use "world consensus" before implementing action.

You and I both know that those claims are impossible to uphold. A leader of a country cannot always get "world" consensus on every action, and I would hope they would not. It is a little extreme to draw the two points together, considering the types of incidents, and this is what prompted my comment about spin.

quote:

I know full well the supporters have had to 'spin' a long way. They used to think that additional US foreign troop deployments and intervention would be over. Now they stay in support of these actions and remain spinning to support such diametrically opposing actions such as the escalation and deployment of more troops to Afghanistan by an Administration elected to reduce the US military presence throughout the world. Now the rationalization behind that support requires the spin usually found only in one of Iran's very busy centrifuges.

Not disagreeing with you on the actual points, but why resort to a method that detracts from a sound arguement?

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 80

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