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RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 1:23:39 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sheesh Mike, it's so simple isn't it?
If we just outlawed guns these things would *never happen*, would they?

Popeye please show me where I havve advocated "outlawing" guns.
I do agree with you though ,it is so simple....we are speaking of a dangerous product...lets regulate them,and register them...on a Federal level.No loopholes,no conflicting state laws....fairly simple...but not a call for outlawing.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 21

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 1:30:43 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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Mike, none of that stuff will work as long as crazy people can get guns.
How about a new law? "No Fucking Guns for Crazy People!"

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 22

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 1:35:17 PM

Crush

Posts: 1031
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Mike, none of that stuff will work as long as crazy people can get guns.
How about a new law? "No Fucking Guns for Crazy People!"

Wait...we ALREADY have that law!

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 23

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 2:01:21 PM

MarsBonfire

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Joined: 3/6/2005
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The thing is, since we are a society of violent media (news programs, movies, TV shows, video games... hell, even cartoons have body counts these days... the characters don't just bounce back after the anvil hits them... at least not in anime.) the question becomes: why aren't there MORE killing sprees taking place. If these media images are so capable of turning people into killers, and these images are absolutely everywhere... then WHY aren't there more violent acts happening on the streets?

I have little doubt that if Harris and Klebold had just gotten laid once in a while, there would be 12 kids and a teacher still alive today. They were teens in the midst of adolecent insanity... and being labeled as the class outsiders certainly didn't help their mental state any. There were sexual aspects to many of the well remembered serial killers of the last few decades... yet, that doesn't seem to yet be the base reason...

Everytime I look at one of these cases, I see two things, over and over: rejection and alienation.

Funny you don't hear about many serial killers who were the popular ones at school, huh? Or the guy who was recently promoted at work and had lots of friends. How many times has the cheerleader or the high school quarterback who were given their Dad's car and their college in the bag... (kids with futures)... how many times have THEY snapped and come to school with an UZI and a couple of bandoliers of ammo crossed upon their chest?

Somebondy on the Columbine thread said that Harris and Klebold snapped because they were bullied. Yes, I can see where you might come away with that impression... especially since they were targeting "popular" kids, and teachers... but I think it goes just a bit deeper. I think they went off the deep end because they were outsiders... and made to feel like they weren't considered human. At some point, inside their heads, they began to feel that they were fully justified in killing the ones who had fucked over their lives. (Even though they were being brought up in relative luxury of suburbia) It was a lashing out.

(shrug) You keep kicking a dog, eventually it'll turn on you.

(in reply to Crush)

Post #: 24

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 3:51:12 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Mike, none of that stuff will work as long as crazy people can get guns.
How about a new law? "No Fucking Guns for Crazy People!"

Wait...we ALREADY have that law!

And how is that working out?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Crush)

Post #: 25

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 4:24:56 PM

Crush

Posts: 1031
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Mike, none of that stuff will work as long as crazy people can get guns.
How about a new law? "No Fucking Guns for Crazy People!"

Wait...we ALREADY have that law!

And how is that working out?

And your point? It doesn't work, just like "gun control" doesn't work, unless we're talking about hitting what you are aiming at...

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 26

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 5:20:20 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
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From: United States
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My point is,I would think,quite clear...what we have now masquerading as "gun control" doesn't work.
Your point of view would be to have less laws.....do you feel the same way regarding laws against murder.They obviously don't work....let's do away with them?
Or,and here's a radical idea,actually enact federal legislation that has some teeth to them,perhaps mandatory minimums(though I do loath the very idea of them)we currently have such minimums for nefarious drug violations...why not for illegal possession of a firearm.Might not cut out all this nonsense...but a few less shootings....it might be worth it.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Crush)

Post #: 27

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 6:05:07 PM

Crush

Posts: 1031
Status: offline

mike, mike, mike.....

Thanks again for clarifying your position. Unfortunately, you have no statistics or research to back up your thoughts. We already have laws "with teeth" on both state and federal books. Plenty of them. And good citizens follow them, albeit grudgingly sometimes.

Here ya go...link to all the laws: http://handgunlaw.us/

Criminals don't. Kinda the definition, right?

And I'm still waiting for your answers

NB: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2008/10/06/daily23.html Hurricane in Ohio

< Message edited by Crush -- 4/11/2009 6:06:12 PM >

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 28

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 6:12:54 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
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From: United States
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What answers are you waiting for Crush...I beleive your referring to the other thread.The one in which you quoted a reply by Rule....and accused Me of not answering your questions?
Go back to the other thread,actually read my post...and you will find your answers....I really can't make it any easier than that.
As for statistics or research....why do I need statistics to refute such a spurious opinion ...one that amounts too "we have laws ,they don't work...so lets get rid of them"
There is nothing to refute there...the argument on it's face is rediculous...no need fro statistics and quotes to disprove such an untenable position.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Crush)

Post #: 29

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 6:25:10 PM

samboct

Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
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Mars-

I agree that the violence in the media is irrelevant. That muckings happen is a function of availability of tools that allow the body count to be done in a day- traditional serial killers take longer. But not all these guys are outsiders- John Wayne Gacy was a successful family man and well liked by kids as well as having his own decent business. He just liked raping young boys and murdering them. There are plenty of examples of murderers through history that were never caught and a few that were. There's always a tendency to try and classify these people as crazy- it makes the lack of understanding of their actions easier. I suspect that the truth is closer to what's been pointed out earlier in this thread- the desire to go on a killing spree is a common human one- which is why there's so little connection between these various killers. If so- all the laws on the books aren't going to change this- it's a deep desire and the killer gives in to it. I have a hunch the reason it's so scary is that it's a common fantasy- or at least not uncommon.

I'm not sure that there's any been any studies of this stuff that are well done. Most of the stuff I've read on line is done for titillation factor rather than accuracy, and while serial killers are a staple of fiction, going mucking is not. I still don't know if there are more similarities than differences between going mucking and the plotting necessary for serial murders.

Sam

(in reply to Crush)

Post #: 30

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 6:34:46 PM

slvemike4u

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From: United States
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As a complete aside when we include the likes of Gacy haven't we gone far afield from the original issue.
That of single act of lunacy that result in mass murder.Gacy's killings were driven in large part by his perversions....perversions taken too the far extreme .Can we really put the likes of Gacy,a calculating cold blooded killer in with the demented individual who snaps one day and goes into work righting all the "perceived " wrongs done to him.Apples and oranges IMO.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to samboct)

Post #: 31

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 6:42:48 PM

Crush

Posts: 1031
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

What answers are you waiting for Crush...I beleive your referring to the other thread.The one in which you quoted a reply by Rule....and accused Me of not answering your questions?
Go back to the other thread,actually read my post...and you will find your answers....I really can't make it any easier than that.
As for statistics or research....why do I need statistics to refute such a spurious opinion ...one that amounts too "we have laws ,they don't work...so lets get rid of them"
There is nothing to refute there...the argument on it's face is rediculous...no need fro statistics and quotes to disprove such an untenable position.

I missed that, though you brought up hurricanes here....congrats for cross threading.

Actually, you continue to think your opinion is fact.   Nope. Your opinion has no basis in fact. But hey, go for it.

You misstate my position about "we have laws, they don't work...blah"     I didn't state that. I said WE ALREADY HAVE LAWS that address every concern you raise. They fail on the criminals already. HOWEVER, law abiding citizens already follow those laws.

You can't make a problem just "go away" because you want it to go away.   Unless you've some sort of psychic powers to cloud men's souls instead of their reason.

,

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 32

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 6:46:34 PM

samboct

Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline

Mike

I'm not sure- which is why I brought up the posts on Gacy et al. Often we have more data on serial killers than on the muckers because the muckers are generally dead.

I'm also not sure that there's such a difference based on timing- only that the normal control that we have to keep our murderous impulses in check seems to have failed. The likes of Gacy et al point out that we can lose this control and still continue to function in society as long as our lack remains secret. Would a mucker be able to function in society if they weren't caught and identified after their act?

In terms of your comments about perversions..it's easy to label Gacy a pervert, and leave it at that. But on a BDSM board, I'd hope that there'd be a certain awareness of kinky acts- and murder certainly qualifies. Whether the correlation between murder and lack of sex drive with a willing partner is accurate (some killers only get an erection during murder), one way to look at Klebold and Harris is that they were so frustrated sexually, they sought release in mass murder. Does that make them perverts? Sorry, labeling Gacy a pervert is too easy an out, and there are probably other serial killers who just murdered, rather than raped first. Does it really matter? In my book, rape is more a crime of violence than a sexual act anyhow.

Sam

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 33

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 6:59:03 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

What answers are you waiting for Crush...I beleive your referring to the other thread.The one in which you quoted a reply by Rule....and accused Me of not answering your questions?
Go back to the other thread,actually read my post...and you will find your answers....I really can't make it any easier than that.
As for statistics or research....why do I need statistics to refute such a spurious opinion ...one that amounts too "we have laws ,they don't work...so lets get rid of them"
There is nothing to refute there...the argument on it's face is rediculous...no need fro statistics and quotes to disprove such an untenable position.

I missed that, though you brought up hurricanes here....congrats for cross threading.

Actually, you continue to think your opinion is fact.   Nope. Your opinion has no basis in fact. But hey, go for it.

You misstate my position about "we have laws, they don't work...blah"     I didn't state that. I said WE ALREADY HAVE LAWS that address every concern you raise. They fail on the criminals already. HOWEVER, law abiding citizens already follow those laws.

You can't make a problem just "go away" because you want it to go away.   Unless you've some sort of psychic powers to cloud men's souls instead of their reason.

,

Crush you continue to cross wires where me and Rule are concerned.I realise on this issue Rule and I share a viewpoint...but we are I assure you two different posters...I never brought up hurricanes.Rule did,so take that up with him please.
As far as thinking my opinion is fact...I couldn't disagree more...I have a firm grasp on what constitute fact and what constitutes opinion.For instance your statement that law abiding citizens follow the law is actually fact...for the minute they break those same laws they are no longer law abiding citizens.Now I realise this seem like a simple idea to wrap one's head around but it is still a "fact"
Now your opinion,and it is an opinion, that since the laws we now have aren't working ...somehow leads you to the conclusion that additional or new laws are not necessary is again just opinion...and in my opinion seriously flawed.
Obviously the laws we have DO NOT address my concerns...the proof of that would seem to be the body count itself.If the laws were actually effectual......there would not be such a need for all these threads....Just my OPINION.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Crush)

Post #: 34

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 7:14:32 PM

Crush

Posts: 1031
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

What answers are you waiting for Crush...I beleive your referring to the other thread.The one in which you quoted a reply by Rule....and accused Me of not answering your questions?
Go back to the other thread,actually read my post...and you will find your answers....I really can't make it any easier than that.
As for statistics or research....why do I need statistics to refute such a spurious opinion ...one that amounts too "we have laws ,they don't work...so lets get rid of them"
There is nothing to refute there...the argument on it's face is rediculous...no need fro statistics and quotes to disprove such an untenable position.

I missed that, though you brought up hurricanes here....congrats for cross threading.

Actually, you continue to think your opinion is fact.   Nope. Your opinion has no basis in fact. But hey, go for it.

You misstate my position about "we have laws, they don't work...blah"     I didn't state that. I said WE ALREADY HAVE LAWS that address every concern you raise. They fail on the criminals already. HOWEVER, law abiding citizens already follow those laws.

You can't make a problem just "go away" because you want it to go away.   Unless you've some sort of psychic powers to cloud men's souls instead of their reason.

,

Crush you continue to cross wires where me and Rule are concerned.I realise on this issue Rule and I share a viewpoint...but we are I assure you two different posters...I never brought up hurricanes.Rule did,so take that up with him please.
As far as thinking my opinion is fact...I couldn't disagree more...I have a firm grasp on what constitute fact and what constitutes opinion.For instance your statement that law abiding citizens follow the law is actually fact...for the minute they break those same laws they are no longer law abiding citizens.Now I realise this seem like a simple idea to wrap one's head around but it is still a "fact"
Now your opinion,and it is an opinion, that since the laws we now have aren't working ...somehow leads you to the conclusion that additional or new laws are not necessary is again just opinion...and in my opinion seriously flawed.
Obviously the laws we have DO NOT address my concerns...the proof of that would seem to be the body count itself.If the laws were actually effectual......there would not be such a need for all these threads....Just my OPINION.

I apologize if I'm mixing you two up.

Please understand that I understand fact from opinion. And what constitutes a law abiding citizen.

My opinion is my opinion...and yours is yours, as I stated. Until you show me where the laws that already exist don't address your concerns, we still are at an impasse. There are plenty of laws there already. Unenforced laws that already exist.

And as I stated before, we are at that impasse. You want your opinion, I understand. But not to be open to finding out if your opinion has basis in actuality, well, that concerns me. I have researched BOTH sides of this issue..gun laws, gun ownership, the number of deaths that occur from gun violence, where they occur*, why they occur.

I'm not bought and paid for NRA clone. I'm a citizen who sees in my country a rise in crimes against others. Ineffective laws, definitely. Probably because there are too many of them. And yes, some are ineffectual. But there is no point in adding to the confusion. Let's actually enforce those that are on the books.

--------------
* of special concern to me, as a university professor. I have to leave my firearm off campus. And we've had two gun incidents this year from our neighbors at "crack alley" a block away. I can't carry tear gas. Nor a defensive baton or knife. I can only rely on a sharp wit and a steady throw of the whiteboard eraser.
Yet when we look at where these mass murder kinds of crimes happen, educational/off limit places are where the bad guys are.

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 35

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 7:31:37 PM

MichiganHeadmast

Posts: 726
Joined: 8/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The tool is the problem.

And it's typically the solution.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 36

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 8:16:59 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Mike

I'm not sure- which is why I brought up the posts on Gacy et al. Often we have more data on serial killers than on the muckers because the muckers are generally dead.

I'm also not sure that there's such a difference based on timing- only that the normal control that we have to keep our murderous impulses in check seems to have failed. The likes of Gacy et al point out that we can lose this control and still continue to function in society as long as our lack remains secret. Would a mucker be able to function in society if they weren't caught and identified after their act?

In terms of your comments about perversions..it's easy to label Gacy a pervert, and leave it at that. But on a BDSM board, I'd hope that there'd be a certain awareness of kinky acts- and murder certainly qualifies. Whether the correlation between murder and lack of sex drive with a willing partner is accurate (some killers only get an erection during murder), one way to look at Klebold and Harris is that they were so frustrated sexually, they sought release in mass murder. Does that make them perverts? Sorry, labeling Gacy a pervert is too easy an out, and there are probably other serial killers who just murdered, rather than raped first. Does it really matter? In my book, rape is more a crime of violence than a sexual act anyhow.

Sam

You might have a point as far as the "perversion"thing.Especially here on CollarMe where we think of our perversions more as a badge of honor.I certainly have no argument with your views on rape either...which I think everyone can agree is more a crime of violence than a crime of sex.(don't know if I'm expressing that right)
Perhaps I hung my objection to the inclusion of Gacy with these others on the wrong point.It might have beeen clearer to point out his dispassion and his ability to maintain a facade of normality...with thes others all pretense.indeed all ability to function seems to be a prerequisite to their "snapping".Gacy and others of his ilk seem to have been able to sublimate their need to kill...satiating their urges and than returning to their "normal" lives...till the need once again overcomes them and they kill again.I am still not convinced their is much in common between a Gacy and a Choo for example.Gacy's success if nothing else speaks to this.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to samboct)

Post #: 37

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 8:18:51 PM

Vendaval

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Over-population and exploitation of non-renewable, essential resources

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"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to StrangerThan)

Post #: 38

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 8:21:40 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MichiganHeadmast

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The tool is the problem.

And it's typically the solution.

Ahh,but absent the "problem"...no need for the "solution".Logic is a bitch isn't it.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to MichiganHeadmast)

Post #: 39

RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/11/2009 8:30:14 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Mike, how about bringing back lynchings and public hangings?
You could argue that they're a "deterrant."

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 40

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