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RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 8:18:11 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

You're right, guns aren't the cause of people being killed by guns. Now can you divert your attention to the cause? 


That's right, I forgot.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Let's all kneel at the Charlton Heston shrine and chant that phrase over and over.

Then, just for shits and giggles, we can try to pry the gun out of his cold dead hands.

(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 8:26:34 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I think people want their 15 mins of fame.
Look at my space, facebook, or any other social networking site.  Why do people do that?  Is it really necessary that some joe in podunk miss know that you collect teacups?  Do you pass along this need to be seen to your children so that mr nicetolittlegirls can look over the page as if it is a meat counter?  People have an obsession with being seen.  Pages even have a friends list: Donna has 2500 friends.  The friends list is often longer than the content of the page!
Has she met them?  Are they really friends?

15 mins of fame.
Kyst

(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 9:03:09 AM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Okay stranger,lets grant you your position(which by the way is quite reasonable) guns are not the reason people kill people....Granted.
Now how about you admit the truth that is there for all to see....Guns make it quite easy for those that decide to kill a number of people to accomplish  just that.Not only easy but rather child like in its simplicity.Obtain guns,stock up on ammunition...pick your chosen hunting environment....and fire.


I don't have a problem admitting that guns are the weapon of choice nor the easiest to acquire. What I find to be... trying to think of a good word here, how about inane? is the driving urge among some to blame all the ills on weapons and those who think that crafting more legislation to limit ownership will fix the problem when the problem being evidenced is A) restricted to an extremely small percentage of the legal gun owning population B) has absolutely nothing to do with the type of gun I own and C) is by the Constitution pretty much a states right issue.

Personally, I think if we don't start alleviating some of the pressures on society, it's going to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets better guns or not.

And as for the quick reply, got one of those family things to do where we eat more than we should, and maybe chase colored eggs around in grass - for some reason. Later.

< Message edited by StrangerThan -- 4/12/2009 9:18:36 AM >

_____________________________


--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 9:30:00 AM   
hopelessfool


Posts: 988
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		I dont htink guns are the issue here. If guns werent available, or as "easily" available, theyd use bombs or some other weapon.

here the think that pisses me off about people who say if we just control guns we wouldnt have this issue...

People who follow the law with guns arent the people using them for mass murders. Its people who dont follow the law.

So your soultion to fixing everything is more laws, which arent being followed now? Please Its like saying here eat this tub of lard it will fix the obesity issues.

You might think laws work and if guns were more controlled  this wouldnt happen... Va tech He got his guns illegally, The man who just killed 12 people in new york got it illegally, columine, they stole theirs.

Face it in a perfect word everyone would give a flying fuck about the law, but in reality, when your at that point your going to snap and you know your going to die anyway, are you really thinking... Oh Im breaking the law by buying a fire arm?

If you however stop the underlying cause of the violence the issue on gun control wouldnt happen.

I live near a city called coatesville and EVERY year we hear how tens of thousands of stolen or illegal fire arms are melted down in the steel plant. Every year.

You know about 500 of those "melted" weapons make their way back to the streets of philly and comit another crime?

Maybe im niave to believe that people who already dont care about the law arent going to follow new ones.

OR maybe i just understand that guess what take away guns they will make something else, take away that, they will make something else and if they want to kill by gods they are going to kill.

Stopping or BANING ANYTHING wont work to fix the mass killings. Sure banning guns or regulating them might drop the death counts a little bit while the masterminds are creating new weapons...

But when you have an automatic bow and arrow... or a bomb made with other chemicals then fertlizer that isnt as regulated... What then? Will the killings all magically stop because everyone learned to get along and are holding hands and singing koom by ya... Fuck no... there will be higher death tolls because people will just want to prove one thing...

the weapon of choice doesnt matter its the person and why the person is doing what they are doing that matters... taking away or controling one weapon wont stop what drives people to kill others the only thing that will stop it is finding the drive that those people have and preventing it.


_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 9:53:24 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		"Mass killing by knife?or explosives ?or Poison? Are these things currently happening."

Actually, yes.  Well, maybe not right now.  But lets consider the case of the cyanide doped Tylenol capsules (remember that one?) and the guy sending anthrax tainted letters through the mail several years back.

Also- your comment that mass killings are a recent phenomenon.  No, they're not.  Ranging from Countess Elizabeth Bathory to Gordon Northcutt (dramatized in the recent movie Changeling) back in the 30s, it's clear that there have been mass killings throughout history.

Stranger Than-

An interesting stab at the differences between a McVeigh and Columbine, but unfortunately it breaks down.  McVeigh wasn't out to kill large numbers of the populace- he wanted to kill large numbers of government workers in retribution for Waco.  Somehow the difference in between knowing the names of your targeted victims specifically (Columbine) versus anonymous government workers doesn't seem to be all that much of a distinction.  If McVeigh just wanted to kill people- why not a shopping mall?  This is more a function of how well do you know your victim before killing them, and there seems to be some variability on that score.  I'm not even sure that there seems to be much of a distinction in when these people die.  Did McVeigh really expect not to get caught?  I don't think so.

Hopeless fool-see the above comments concerning crimes.  There's always a tendency to believe that the past was more peaceful than it is today, but the reality is that economically depressed times breed crimes of violence, and a rising economic tide diminishes crime.  However, I agree that the people doing these crimes are not crazy- they do have a reasonable handle on reality.  They're just very angry.

Some further thoughts on the distinction between serial killers and muckers- I think I've got a useful one, but constructive comments are always welcome.

Serial killers- act for the pleasure of killing.  Suicide may or may not be part of the drive.
Muckers- they're martyrs.  They think that by their suicide, the world will pay attention to its flaws.  Since their own personal suicide doesn't rate much headlines, it fails.  But taking a lot of people with you in a suicide, does draw attention to your plight.
Differences between muckers and terrorists.  Muckers don't espouse others political viewpoints, they tend to be individualistic, whereas terrorists have a political agenda.  Again, suicide may or may not be part of the plan- there are elements of martyrdom with terrorist actions.

In terms of whether or not muckers are triggered by financial events- I have no idea.  I suspect the number of muckers are a function of stress and depression.  Some of the recent mucking events such as Virginia Tech and Choo may have been the result of a culture clash and alienation, coupled with a respect for this type of martyrdom.  In Japan certainly, killing lots of people then yourself is often seen as heroic.  If loss of a job led to mucking, then homeless people should be prime examples, but they're not.  Muckers have to be capable enough to hold a job.

In terms of guns- it's only the tool that comes first to hand.  Harris and Klebold also prepared pipe bombs.  I don't think banning guns is going to do much about mucking, only changing perhaps the total body count.  But somebody who wants to go mucking will find a way- and changing the weapon of choice to bombs or poison may actually raise the body count. 

Sam

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 9:58:38 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Hate to bust your bubble there Hopeless,but you might want to look at today's NY Times....they have a real nice picture of Wong's(Binghamton) pistol permit.Cho purchased his guns legally in the Old Dominion state.The loopholes and outright gaps in the laws of this great country are obviously not at present sufficient to the problem.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to hopelessfool)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 10:01:47 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Samboct,the fact that you have to search  your memory for a case here or there concerning this or that method of killing actually popints out the problem.Would it be so difficult to remember the last mass shooting...perhaps you suffer from short term memory loss,well fear not wait a week or so and another such incident will occur.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 10:03:55 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		THE WEAPON OF CHOICE DOES MATTER.IT IS OFTEN THE DETERMINING FACTOR IN HOW MANY BODY BAGS WILL BE NEEDED TO CLEAN UP AFTER THE CARNAGE IS DONE.
WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO FATHOM!!!!!!!!

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 10:20:47 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

THE WEAPON OF CHOICE DOES MATTER.IT IS OFTEN THE DETERMINING FACTOR IN HOW MANY BODY BAGS WILL BE NEEDED TO CLEAN UP AFTER THE CARNAGE IS DONE.
WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO FATHOM!!!!!!!!


Mike, I don't have to search my memory too hard.
Remember 9/11?
Let's ban Boeing 767's!
They didn't use any guns and the managed to kill 3,000 people in a very short time.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 10:27:08 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

THE WEAPON OF CHOICE DOES MATTER.IT IS OFTEN THE DETERMINING FACTOR IN HOW MANY BODY BAGS WILL BE NEEDED TO CLEAN UP AFTER THE CARNAGE IS DONE.
WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO FATHOM!!!!!!!!


Mike, I don't have to search my memory too hard.
Remember 9/11?
Let's ban Boeing 767's!
They didn't use any guns and the managed to kill 3,000 people in a very short time.
So now we will  insert ideological inspired acts of terrorism into a discussion concerning spree killers.Running out of actual ideas Popeye?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 10:28:20 AM   
ModeratorEleven


Posts: 2007
Joined: 8/14/2005
Status: offline 		Folks, try and get this back on topic please.  If you want to have another "guns are good/bad" debate, do it in one of the already existing threads.

XI


_____________________________

This mod goes to eleven.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 10:47:46 AM   
hopelessfool


Posts: 988
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Actually mike the title says mass killings and underlying reasons of why. 911 was a MASS killing and the underlying reason was a mix of terrorism and martyrdom.

The think you seem to not be able to grasp is any type of mass killing that doesnt involve a gun and until you can accept there are many ways to kill people with out guns being involved its like talking to a brick wall.


_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to ModeratorEleven)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 11:02:36 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Well being this thread was inspired by a prior thread discussing the anniversary of Columbine,it doesn't actually work to include 9/11.Would discussing mass killings that occur in wars also qualify for the purposes of this discussion...of course not.As a matter of fact the only reason 9/11 made an appearence here was a lame attempt to supply an example of a mass killing absent the use of a ....dare I say the word....GUN.
Which explains nicely why no mention(that I am aware of )of 9/11 appeared here till the 4th page.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to hopelessfool)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 11:09:38 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		To answer another point...yes I agree there are many ways to kill large numbers of people without the use of a gun...but,in this country,in our time there is no simpler and expediant way to kill large numbers of people than with a gun....and till some people can wrap their minds around that it is worse than talking to a brick wall....sort of like banging ones head against a brick wall.All you wind up with is a headache.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 11:29:04 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

slvemike's thread on Columbine is the driving force behind this one. Just about every thread on violence and guns devolves into a debate on regulation, registration, limits, something along those lines. Personally, I think that stance avoids the real issues of what drives the violence rather than the tool used to accomplish it. Columbine was an abberation at the time. In the past few years however, the abberation has begun to approach the norm.

My question is why now, at this point in history, has it become common to read about one incident after another where people reached a breaking point and vented their rage, desperation, hopelessness, whatever emotion you want to call it, upon other segments of the population? What drives it?

Personally, I don't think it's that mysterious. We have a segment of society that glorifies violence, parents who raise children feeding them a steady fare of violent films, a politically divided population that refuses to compromise - are a few reasons that come to mind. They're only part of it in my view though. I see a lot of anger in people in political venues, personal areas where progresssive-PC type pressures are backfiring and generating much of the type of thought or action they try to eliminate, in economic areas where people are stressed to the limit. In other words, I don't think there's a single issue. I do think that the sum of those kinds of pressures create enough strain to where breakage should be expected.

No gun legislation debate please. Only what you think is driving the violence.
Hopeless,in the beleif that you perhaps never actually read the OP, here it is.....Now if you would be so kind,other than mass deaths please point out to me where 9/11 fits into the discussion.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 11:42:20 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

THE WEAPON OF CHOICE DOES MATTER.IT IS OFTEN THE DETERMINING FACTOR IN HOW MANY BODY BAGS WILL BE NEEDED TO CLEAN UP AFTER THE CARNAGE IS DONE.
WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO FATHOM!!!!!!!!


Mike, I don't have to search my memory too hard.
Remember 9/11?
Let's ban Boeing 767's!
They didn't use any guns and the managed to kill 3,000 people in a very short time.
So now we will  insert ideological inspired acts of terrorism into a discussion concerning spree killers.Running out of actual ideas Popeye?


LOL! Mike, "ideological?" Oh, I guess al qeada would be "offended" by being called  common "spree killers" wouldn't they?
If they've killed more than one person or killed more than once wouldn't that be a "spree?"
I can just hear the killers now; "Gee, I need to have some kind of "ideology" when I wack my mother-in-law and my wife otherwise after I'm gone the press will call me a "spree killer!" "We can't have THAT now can we?"
It seems like you're now saying that it's "the reason" why they kill not "the tool."
Happy Easter! Have some jelly beans you'll feel better.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 12:24:24 PM   
painpup


Posts: 132
Joined: 2/16/2005
Status: offline 		not to undermind the issue here but said masskiller in last mass slaughter it was said in the binghamton sun times the guy was being picked on for his bad english speech plus he was unemployed some good reading for You though is this book DO-GOODERS  how liberals hurt those they claim to help [and the rest of us] by Mona Charen

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 12:29:32 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

THE WEAPON OF CHOICE DOES MATTER.IT IS OFTEN THE DETERMINING FACTOR IN HOW MANY BODY BAGS WILL BE NEEDED TO CLEAN UP AFTER THE CARNAGE IS DONE.
WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO FATHOM!!!!!!!!


Mike, I don't have to search my memory too hard.
Remember 9/11?
Let's ban Boeing 767's!
They didn't use any guns and the managed to kill 3,000 people in a very short time.
So now we will  insert ideological inspired acts of terrorism into a discussion concerning spree killers.Running out of actual ideas Popeye?


LOL! Mike, "ideological?" Oh, I guess al qeada would be "offended" by being called  common "spree killers" wouldn't they?
If they've killed more than one person or killed more than once wouldn't that be a "spree?"
I can just hear the killers now; "Gee, I need to have some kind of "ideology" when I wack my mother-in-law and my wife otherwise after I'm gone the press will call me a "spree killer!" "We can't have THAT now can we?"
It seems like you're now saying that it's "the reason" why they kill not "the tool."
Happy Easter! Have some jelly beans you'll feel better.
Popeye do me a favor...read the damm OP and tell me in all seriousness how the fuck those fools with boxcutters meet any of the talking points contained therein,other than mass deaths.
As I said in a reply to Hopeless....war by definition contains many instances of mass killings....want to squeeze that in here also Popeye.Maybe a little bunny wabbit will give you a sense of inclusion,try it .You certainly need something cause this whole 9/11 thing ain't working pal.

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 4/12/2009 12:30:09 PM >

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 12:31:38 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: painpup

not to undermind the issue here but said masskiller in last mass slaughter it was said in the binghamton sun times the guy was being picked on for his bad english speech plus he was unemployed some good reading for You though is this book DO-GOODERS  how liberals hurt those they claim to help [and the rest of us] by Mona Charen
Liberals are to blame heh?
Glad you didn't want to undermind the issue....lol

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to painpup)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons - 4/12/2009 12:49:31 PM   
painpup


Posts: 132
Joined: 2/16/2005
Status: offline 		see You again missed the point i was born an raised in upstate Ny  you couldn't get me back to ny on bet nowadays unemployment extremely high taxes the highest i could go on but the point was the masskiller was being picked on for bad english and unemployed if you want become a farmer learn how to spread it Mike and i offered a good book to read as to why some of the things that are happing in the usa today like mass killers and mediahyp and laws of the land are being kicked to the curb

< Message edited by painpup -- 4/12/2009 12:50:26 PM >

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 80
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