RE: Bush's 'torture lawyers' facing arrest in Spain for war crimes? (Full Version)

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Marc2b -> RE: Bush's 'torture lawyers' facing arrest in Spain for war crimes? (4/16/2009 5:47:55 PM)

quote:

Two words: Nuremberg trial.


What N4SDChastity said.






Owner59 -> RE: Bush's 'torture lawyers' facing arrest in Spain for war crimes? (4/16/2009 5:51:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

You’re missing my point entirely, but that doesn’t surprise me.

What if Somalia demanded the extradition of President Obama for shooting three members of their “voluntary coast guard?”

People’s ideological knee jerk reactions to these things are what I’m concerned about (and for those of you who didn’t get, my first post on this thread was a sarcastic jab at that attitude). 


Ummm, we didn`t sign a treat with Somalia.......I think you`re miss`n some`m.

And again,our Constitution says we must abide by the treaties we make.It`s very clear.That`s the reason bush and others have resisted a world court.Because then we`d have to start obeying international law.

Oh wouldn`t that be horrible,following the law.

If anyone thinks this is isn`t real,thinks this is a joke,go ask Henry Kissinger why he doesn`t go to Europe for fear of being arrested.

And no,the Spanish aren`t coming to take people away in leg irons.That shows a real naiveté.What`ll happen(if they lose,even if tried in absentia)is they won`t be able to pass through any country that is also a signature of the treaty.There`s`t a lot of places.There will be very few places left that they can go to unmolested

Like Kissinger,any defendant won`t be able to travel freely without the possibility of arrest.Even outside of Europe,another countries having treaties with Spain could arrest them.

"Passport?....business or pleasure? .....anything to declare?....Sir,are you so and so?....Please step over here to answer some questions Sir.....Calling security!.....and so on.Not a pretty thought.

This is the same with most war criminals.Like Melosivich,thumbing his nose at the rest of the world,they`ll stay in their own countries.That is,.... until the perp walk in the Hague.

They won`t even be able to go to Canada!



Marc2b -> RE: Bush's 'torture lawyers' facing arrest in Spain for war crimes? (4/16/2009 6:17:45 PM)

quote:

Marc, you appear to have missed my point. The US has prosecuted foreign nationals over events that have occured overseas but have affected US interests. So, the idea that country A has no right to prosecute citizens of country B is one that your own country doesn't share. So, why the outrage when instead of  US courts trying a foreigner, a foreign court wants to try a US citizen?
i am old enough to remember when a couple of US pilots in Italy, broke their own rules and ran into the lines holding up a cable car. People were killed. A clear case of US nationals breaking the law in a foreign country. Those airmen were airlifted out of Italy so fast their feet didn't touch. Why? Why couldn't Italy prosecute those people? The US prosecutes those foreigners who break US law on US territory...and rightly so. So how come the US is all for the rule of law unless it's someone elses courts? US courts do not have a monopoly on justice.


I didn’t miss your point.  I disregarded it because it’s not germane to how I am looking at this.

A)     Isn’t it interesting how people on these boards (and in life in general) line up on an issue based not upon rational analysis but on their feelings for particular individuals, groups, etc.

B)     If we accept the premise that a nation can indict current or former members of a foreign government, does that not leave open the potential for abuse (as is usually the case with power)?  What’s to stop a government from using such a power to not seek justice but advantage?



Marc2b -> RE: Bush's 'torture lawyers' facing arrest in Spain for war crimes? (4/16/2009 6:26:13 PM)

quote:

Oh wouldn`t that be horrible,following the law.


Whose law?  Written by who?  For who's benefit? 

quote:

And no,the Spanish aren`t coming to take people away in leg irons.


Well, that's a relief.  I've been lying awake at night worrying about that.





Owner59 -> RE: Bush's 'torture lawyers' facing arrest in Spain for war crimes? (4/16/2009 6:45:27 PM)

It`s no biggie.Just won`t be able to impress a g/f w/ a trip to Europe or a holding( like most of the Caribbean).They could go to the USVIs though.

And there`s the embarrassment.Oh right,no sense of shame,no embarrassment.No biggie.

And then there`s the cementing into history,the dark years of lawlessness inflicted on us not by bin-laden,but by bush and the neo-cons.



slvemike4u -> RE: Bush's 'torture lawyers' facing arrest in Spain for war crimes? (4/16/2009 7:45:41 PM)

Come on we all know we are just spinning our wheels here.A Spanish court has the right to indict who they choose....hell they can even hold a trial.But every one here knows America is not going to be compelled to surrender anyone .No American administration will allow this precedent to be set....no American politician will be compelled to submit to a foreign court.Some might call that American arrogance....perhaps it is....it is also reality.Hell I doubt the Spanish would turn over an outgoing politician or Govt lawyer to stand before one of our courts.



servantforuse -> RE: Bush's 'torture lawyers' facing arrest in Spain for war crimes? (4/16/2009 7:56:19 PM)

slave mike, we have 2 things we agree on. The 12 time Green Bay Packers are the greatest NFL team. and the United States is the best country in the world. Who is Spain or any one else to tell us what to do. They can all go and punt...



servantforuse -> RE: Bush's 'torture lawyers' facing arrest in Spain for war crimes? (4/16/2009 8:05:23 PM)

I should have said...The 12 time world champion Green Bay Packers. The Bears are next with a paltry 9...GO PACK...



slvemike4u -> RE: Bush's 'torture lawyers' facing arrest in Spain for war crimes? (4/16/2009 8:34:36 PM)

Wait a minute, I'm a Giants/J-E-T-S...sort of guy.



N4SDChastity -> RE: Bush's 'torture lawyers' facing arrest in Spain for war crimes? (4/16/2009 8:53:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Marc, you appear to have missed my point. The US has prosecuted foreign nationals over events that have occured overseas but have affected US interests. So, the idea that country A has no right to prosecute citizens of country B is one that your own country doesn't share. So, why the outrage when instead of  US courts trying a foreigner, a foreign court wants to try a US citizen?
i am old enough to remember when a couple of US pilots in Italy, broke their own rules and ran into the lines holding up a cable car. People were killed. A clear case of US nationals breaking the law in a foreign country. Those airmen were airlifted out of Italy so fast their feet didn't touch. Why? Why couldn't Italy prosecute those people? The US prosecutes those foreigners who break US law on US territory...and rightly so. So how come the US is all for the rule of law unless it's someone elses courts? US courts do not have a monopoly on justice.

(speeeeling edit)


I am not only olde enough to remember this event, I was stationed at HQ EUCOM, at the time.  The reason they were taken out of country so fast was because no one, not the Italian government, and certainly not the Americans, wanted rioting and the comcomant deaths that would certainly have occured had they remained in country.  They were only in country for an exercise, anyway, not permanently assigned there.  The reason they were not tried in Italian courts is because of the SOFA (Status Of Forces Agreement) in place that covers who has jurisdiction in situations such as this.  Hint: The Americans did.

They were tried in a Military Courts Martial.  Not guilty of negligent homicide (or whatever the actual chatges were), guilty of conduct unbecomming.  DD (dishonorable discharge...  A federal conviction, by the way, as are ALL military courts martial.  Don't know what happend to the piolt and navigator, but, I can guarantee you they do not hold a Federal, State, or Local government job.)  No retirement, either, not with bad papers.  Never work as a Gov't contractor, either.  Nor will their spouses, or probably their kids, for that matter.



ienigma777 -> RE: Bush's 'torture lawyers' facing arrest in Spain for war crimes? (4/17/2009 7:42:53 AM)

Hello N4sdchasity;
Thanks for setting me straight on the Noreiga thing. I followed it somewhat, but here, the story just faded away. Okay, that settles that, thank you.

If anyone is interested, about this torture fiasco, the CD is entitled 'Taxi to the Darkside'; it goes into the accountability of the interrogators; the prosecution thereof, if any.

Yesterday, President Obama declared the CIA interrogators will not be charged nor brought to trial, being held accountable for their actions of torture. "Let us put the past behind us........"

So, I guess any discussion on accountability, right or wrong on the torture conducted under the Bush administration is rather mote.

Who said 'Nurenberg Trails' here? Anyone remember the Lieutent Calley, Massacre of Mei Li incident?

Do what you will, now with President Obama's torture Bush bailout/pardon, (call it what you will); we find that accountability for one's actions does not mean a thing. Sorry, Mark2b;
Accounability for one's actions is not applicable to everyone.

Another classic defense; Reagan's "I can't remember." now Mr. Obama's " Lets put the past behind us; ...... blah, blah blah."



philosophy -> RE: Bush's 'torture lawyers' facing arrest in Spain for war crimes? (4/17/2009 8:47:38 AM)

Fair enough. i remember the anger though and the popular idea that those airmen got off lightly. If a foreign aircraft did a similar thing in the States wouldn't people want that case tried in the States? In this thread we've had the idea that no foreign court can indict US nationals put forward. That Italian case contrasts for me with the US trying foreign nationals over 9/11 related charges. Perhaps rules have been followed, regulations given due process, but if the US believes it is just for it to try foreigners for crimes against it, then it should also be just for the US to allow their citizens to be tried by foreign courts for crimes against those other countries.




Raiikun -> RE: Bush's 'torture lawyers' facing arrest in Spain for war crimes? (4/19/2009 10:17:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Ummm, we didn`t sign a treat with Somalia.......I think you`re miss`n some`m.


Kinda like the point you just missed?



quote:

And again,our Constitution says we must abide by the treaties we make.It`s very clear.That`s the reason bush and others have resisted a world court.Because then we`d have to start obeying international law.

Oh wouldn`t that be horrible,following the law.


Depends on the law. It would be horrible following Sharia law for instance.

There's a lot of reasons why an international law/court could be a Very Bad Thing(tm)



MichiganHeadmast -> RE: Bush's 'torture lawyers' facing arrest in Spain for war crimes? (4/19/2009 3:58:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b



quote:

And no,the Spanish aren`t coming to take people away in leg irons.


Well, that's a relief.  I've been lying awake at night worrying about that.





Well, NOBODY expects the Spanish Extradition....



popeye1250 -> RE: Bush's 'torture lawyers' facing arrest in Spain for war crimes? (4/20/2009 10:09:14 AM)

Cagey, we had the same thing under Clinton. Remember Bosnia and Kosovo? Remember "peacekeepers" "nation-building"?
The Clinton Admin. had absolutely *no business* going over there just like Bush had *no business* going to Iraq!



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